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four2ski

I have a couple of questions...

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The problem I had with Julianns post was that she did not support her statement, nor did she clarify who the "most" was. It was nonsensical. She linked to the study after my post.

I question any study done in which LDS are asked about reading the bible. LDS often equate "reading the bible" with "reading scripture" and may include any of the standard works in their answer. I believe that LDS would rank among the highest, if not the highest for reading scripture. I highly question that they would rank among the highest for bible reading.

How funny. Can you link to such a study. In your post you state that julian threw out something that she did back up and you have done the same thing.

So, cough up yopur source.

Of course, saying that LDS equate reading of ALL scripture with reading the Bible is.............nonesense.

Teacnum

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LDS scripture trashes the bible. It doesn't matter if you see it this way or disagree. 1 Nephi 13 indicates that the bible was revised to the point where it could mislead people. This is considered trashing by many people. I certainly consider it trashing the bible.

It is a legitimate concern. I have good reason to believe that "reading the bible" and "reading scripture" are equated among many LDS. I have been dealing with LDS for 10 years and see this often.

sr

LDS scripture trashes the bible.

No it does not.

It doesn't matter if you see it this way or disagree.

It does not matter that you think it does.

1 Nephi 13 indicates that the bible was revised to the point where it could mislead people.

That is a far cry from trashing the Bible

This is considered trashing by many people.

Only knee jerk reactionaries looking to pick a fight.

I have good reason to believe that "reading the bible" and "reading scripture" are equated among many LDS. I have been dealing with LDS for 10 years and see this often.

I have been dealing with LDS for 38 years. You are wrong. Cough up your study.

Teancum

I certainly consider it trashing the bible.

Then you are a knee jerk reactionary. But we really don't care what you think.

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LDS Scripture teach that Jesus was with God from the beginning and was one with God from the beginning. While we do believe that we can be gods, and that only through the grace and divine indwelling of God in us, Jesus did not progress, nor do I believe His father did. He is the eternal God of all other gods.

Teancum

if Jesus did not progress, nor His father, then why does the LDS Church teach that they did?

"Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws." The Gospel Through the Ages; Desert Book Co. 1945, p.51 (according to Berean Christian Ministries the title page has: "Written and published under the direction of the General Priesthood Committee of the Council of the Twelve of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.")

"Christ the Word, the First born, had of course attained unto the status of Godhood while yet in pre-existence." What the Mormons Think of Christ; LDS Church publication, p.36

"This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught:

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hooberus, Try being honest in your debate in cite a reference from the standard works where is says that Jesus was not always God. Then and only then will your disputes with our doctrines have any credence.

Evangelicals. I very select and minority group of stout believers that hold no preference to a particular church. It goes without saying that they would be more likely to read the bible than anyone else based souly on the faith, but to do so would be to compare apples and oranges. Compare those Evangelicals to say "active" and/or "devout" Baptist and Catholics or yes even Mormons the the playing field would be even.

The original study and findings hold.

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hooberus, Try being honest in your debate in cite a reference from the standard works where is says that Jesus was not always God. Then and only then will your disputes with our doctrines have any credence.

So, is it not honest to cite the publications of a Church in order to point out what that particular Church teaches?

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hooberus, Try being honest in your debate in cite a reference from the standard works where is says that Jesus was not always God. Then and only then will your disputes with our doctrines have any credence.

So, is it not honest to cite the publications of a Church in order to point out what that particular Church teaches?

So, is it not honest to cite Jerry Falwell, Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton in order to point out what Christianity teaches?

You've been told numerous times that the opinions of our leaders, just as the opinions of the above mentioned church leaders, are not the doctrines of the church.

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- When teaching with our missionaries I occasionally hear investigators complain that the Bible is often not opened up and read in many Christian church services (I'm still floored to hear this each time it is said) and so they've retreated to reading it at home for church.

My wife noted how much more she reads the bible now that she is a member of the church. Her former faith (Lutheran), in her opinion, did a very poor job of eductating its members about the bible - especially the OT. Bible study is encouraged far more in the LDS church than in her past church.

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So, is it not honest to cite Jerry Falwell, Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton in order to point out what Christianity teaches?

You've been told numerous times that the opinions of our leaders, just as the opinions of the above mentioned church leaders, are not the doctrines of the church.

The words of your leaders can be a source to cite for the teachings/doctrines of your Church especially if more than one of the following are true:

* The words are from those who hold the authoritative positions as "General Authorities" (ie: "president"; "apostle"; "seventy" etc.) of your specific Church organization. Especially, if they are from those who hold the position of "prophet, seer, and revelator, and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

* The words are not merely given as "opinions" but also as teachings.

* The words are quoted for Church teachings in Church manuals and publications.

Furthermore, if you will take the time to look up the quotes that I listed earlier, many of them are not even directly quotes from identified specific leaders of the LDS Church (so they can't be merely their "opinions"), but instead sections from your Church's teaching manuals (manuals which are published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), for example:

"As shown in this chapter, our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principals, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood." Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual p. 132

Even the below quote (which uses the word "doctrine" in regards to God's supposed progression) is from a summary section of an LDS Church curriculum publication (most of the quoted words are not Young's words, but words from the Church publication).

"The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this Church. How do you feel, knowing that God, through His own experience,

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LDS Scripture teach that Jesus was with God from the beginning and was one with God from the beginning. While we do believe that we can be gods, and that only through the grace and divine indwelling of God in us, Jesus did not progress, nor do I believe His father did. He is the eternal God of all other gods.

Teancum

if Jesus did not progress, nor His father, then why does the LDS Church teach that they did?

You err not knowing the what is and is not official LDS doctrine.

Please show me from LDS scripture where Jesus progressed. That is all I care about.

Teancum

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The words of your leaders can be a source to cite for the teachings/doctrines of your Church especially if more than one of the following are true:

This is not an unfair position. However, the measurement for truth is the LDS canon. There has been a lot of speculative teaching in regards to the King Follet discourse which, through its regular use is really quasi official.

However, the nature of how God got to be God is not expounded upon. In the KFD JS said that Jesus does exactly what he saw His Father do, strongly implying that the Father was the Savior of a world. As Jesus was one with God in the beginning I personally extrapolate that the Father was a savior of a world But he also was always God. The Eternal God of all other gods per the D&C section 121 I believe.

So, while many addresses, comments and books comment on the progression of God how he progressed we did not know. The only way Jesus progresses was to come the earth, gain a body, experience mortality so we would have a perfect savior, and so forth. He was one with the Father from the beginning, he emptied himself of the glory, he took on flesh, died for sin, was resurrected and took that body with him to heaven. But that is the only way he progressed or changed and even EVs believe that he went through these things.

The words of your leaders can be a source to cite for the teachings/doctrines of your Church especially if more than one of the following are true
:

You do not set official doctrine for us. So just stop it.

"As shown in this chapter, our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principals, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood." Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual p. 132

Yes we believe God was a man like Jesus was a man. Don't you believe Jesus was man like us? So God became man.

"The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this Church.

So? Jesus was a man, emptied himself of His glory, and then Returned to sit with His Father on His throne. How the progression took place we do not know. Like I said, I believe the Father is the Eternal God and he became man by being a savior.

But since you set our doctrine I guess I am wrong.

Teancum

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You do not set official doctrine for us. So just stop it. . . . But since you set our doctrine I guess I am wrong.

Teancum, you wrote: ". . . Jesus did not progress, nor do I believe His father did."

To which I replied: "if Jesus did not progress, nor His father, then why does the LDS Church teach that they did?"

I backed my assertion up with quotes from publications published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, such as:

"Christ the Word, the First born, had of course attained unto the status of Godhood while yet in pre-existence." What the Mormons Think of Christ; LDS Church publication, p.36

"As shown in this chapter, our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principals, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood." Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual p. 132

"The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this Church. How do you feel, knowing that God, through His own experience,

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"As shown in this chapter, our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principals, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood." Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual p. 132

Yes we believe God was a man like Jesus was a man. Don't you believe Jesus was man like us? So God became man.

The manual quote above states that the Father was a man who "progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood." I believe that the Father was always God, not that he "progressed" until he attained the state of godhood. (or as another LDS Church publication puts it: "progressed to become a God").

I believe that Jesus was always God (who also became man at the incarnation), not that he "attained unto the status of Godhood"

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