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four2ski

I have a couple of questions...

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Guest johnny_cat
This is funny, pointing out a legitimate concern or question really bothers some people. Apparently you agree that it is legitimate, and that is what bothers you the most.

If you equate "really bothers some people" with "strikes people as a huge stretch," then, yes, this "really bothers me." :P

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This is funny, pointing out a legitimate concern or question really bothers some people. Apparently you agree that it is legitimate, and that is what bothers you the most.

If you equate "really bothers some people" with "strikes people as a huge stretch," then, yes, this "really bothers me." :P

You're a nice guy Johnny. Seriously. I appreciate your posting style.

sr

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Guest johnny_cat

On one level, this really does bother me. I'm tired of being told by people who aren't me that I, as a Mormon, don't believe the Bible and that I "trash" it. Even when a non-LDS group shows that we do study the Bible, the preconceived notion is that the poll must be untrustworthy, or we must mean something else when we say "Bible." Why the vehement refusal to let us believe in the Bible?

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Guest johnny_cat
You're a nice guy Johnny. Seriously. I appreciate your posting style.

Sorry for the excess joviality. Just in a bit of a silly mood, and not meaning to offend. If I did offend you, I sincerely apologize.

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So it appears that it was only comparing readership to "protestants adults only", as compared to what Juliann described as "most", and, it is a site that concludes that momrons do not believe that the Bible is the authoritative Word of God.

Ah, I am insulted for making stuff up...provide statistics from an evangelical polling group...and now the big hot potato toss begins. If you have a problem with the results or methods...contact Barna. It says what it says and it answers what was asked.

If you have something to offer besides disdain...then offer it. Meanwhile, we are left with Mormons being second only to Pentacostals in Bible reading. Sorry.

Question for Juliann:  Do you find credibility in Barna's comment that:  "mormon's do not beleive the Bible to be the authoritative Word of God" ?  Does this give you comfort in the credibility of the rest of Barna's conclusions?

Question for you: Do you know what methodology is? You can say Mormons eat bugs..what does that have to do with the data?

Barna's conclusions were based on taliking to an entire population of 86 mormons over a year and a half period.  Do you find that a quality sample size?

ZZZZzzzzzzzz

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On one level, this really does bother me. I'm tired of being told by people who aren't me that I, as a Mormon, don't believe the Bible and that I "trash" it. Even when a non-LDS group shows that we do study the Bible, the preconceived notion is that the poll must be untrustworthy, or we must mean something else when we say "Bible." Why the vehement refusal to let us believe in the Bible?

Exactly, it's the antimo and the cynimo that likes to tell Mormons what they really believe and how things really are with things LDS. It is so nice to know that they are there to help all of us unibrows, after all they just love us to pieces, dontcha know.

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I question any study done in which LDS are asked about reading the bible. LDS often equate "reading the bible" with "reading scripture" and may include any of the standard works in their answer. I believe that LDS would rank among the highest, if not the highest for reading scripture. I highly question that they would rank among the highest for bible reading.

What total nonsense.

Total nonsense to question a study?

This is funny, pointing out a legitimate concern or question really bothers some people. Apparently you agree that it is legitimate, and that is what bothers you the most.

sr

Obviously, the irony just flew right over your head. I used the exact words you used when it was suggested that we read the bible more than others. It seems the fact that we do bothers you.

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To go back a couple of days...

I saw that sr1030 posted a bunch of 19th century rants by Mormon leaders against the rest of Christianity, to show that we believe in a "different" Jesus.

This is interesting, because a close reading of all of those texts (many of which I was already familiar with) will reveal that NOT ONCE did those church leaders say that other people were not Christians or that they worshiped a "different" Jesus.

All they said was that the other sects had it all wrong, and that WE had it right.

Is this any different from the standard Bible-bashing clash between pastors of different Protestant sects? (With the possible exception that they at least allow the other side to have Jesus.)

It is not nice, I admit, but considering the situation of intense persecution they were in, it is understandable.

Nowadays, our Church leaders are more civil to the heads of other faiths. But the basic premise is the same. You believe Jesus. So do we.... And we have a better way of understanding him and worshiping him.

Go to the Conference talks last October, or April before that. That is indeed what they said. The message is more civil. But it is otherwise the same message as the 19th century.

Finally, regarding the accusation that we do not read the Bible... I cannot speak for anyone else, but I believe that I can match my knowledge of the NT and OT with any Evangelical anytime. (And surely there are other Mormons that are more well-read than me.)

Beowulf

Where did I find the time to learn all this if I was only reading the BofM, the D&C, and the PofGP?

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I believe that LDS would rank among the highest, if not the highest for reading scripture. I highly question that they would rank among the highest for bible reading.

A couple interesting points you've stirred from within . .

- Whenever I read LDS scripture I'm invariably linked back to the Bible by the footnotes, causing me to read and study many chapters from it each week.

- When teaching with our missionaries I occasionally hear investigators complain that the Bible is often not opened up and read in many Christian church services (I'm still floored to hear this each time it is said) and so they've retreated to reading it at home for church.

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So it appears that it was only comparing readership to "protestants adults only", as compared to what Juliann described as "most", and, it is a site that concludes that momrons do not believe that the Bible is the authoritative Word of God.

Ah, I am insulted for making stuff up...provide statistics from an evangelical polling group...and now the big hot potato toss begins. If you have a problem with the results or methods...contact Barna. It says what it says and it answers what was asked.

If you have something to offer besides disdain...then offer it. Meanwhile, we are left with Mormons being second only to Pentacostals in Bible reading. Sorry.

Question for Juliann:

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Your statements are simply factually incorrect. The Barna site that you cite is very clear. Evangelicals who read the bible every week, by the Barna site statistics, outnumber lds by at least 20 million to 5 million.

You have got to be kidding. There is another stat about EVs being the least educated....

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Jehovah was once an angel and was indeed promoted to Godhood. There was also a time when our God was a just an angel and he became a mortal man.

And here I thought that we were children of God...not children of angels. Are your children puppies, Paul? <_<

Hey, I resemble that remark. And I'm soooo good these days.

:unsure:

:P

Paul O

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Your statements are simply factually incorrect. The Barna site that you cite is very clear. Evangelicals who read the bible every week, by the Barna site statistics, outnumber lds by at least 20 million to 5 million.

Like I said, if emotional statements bring you better arguments, then go ahead and keep using them. But you run the risk of someone actually checking your numbers. If you do not care about the credibility of your statements, then you have nothing to worry about.

If you would like me to show you the math on the above, please ask and I will. But I trust you can read the information on the sources you use as easily as I did.

Alright, I'll bite. Show us the math.

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Guest johnny_cat
Alright, I'll bite. Show us the math.

The math here is quite irrelevant. Of course there are more Bible-reading Evangelicals than there are Bible-reading Mormons simply because Evangelicals significantly outnumber Mormons. However, this fact does not help in determining which group reads the Bible more than the other. For that, a percentage would be more helpful. And that is what the Barna study provides.

An analogy might be a study of family size among Mormons and Evangelicals. One might say with confidence that Mormons have more children than Evangelicals do because the average family size is larger among Mormons. sr's response is equivalent to saying that Evangelicals have more children because there are simply more Evangelical children than Mormon children.

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The math here is quite irrelevant. Of course there are more Bible-reading Evangelicals than there are Bible-reading Mormons simply because Evangelicals significantly outnumber Mormons. However, this fact does not help in determining which group reads the Bible more than the other. For that, a percentage would be more helpful. And that is what the Barna study provides.

I think the math is relevant to those who claim that "mormons read the bible more than most" and then cite the Barna study for support.

As a percentage, according to the Barna cite, evangelicals read the bible on a percentage of 86% (see here under readership: http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Topic&TopicID=7) as compared to 67% for mormons (see here in the table: http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Ba...rnaUpdateID=93).

Barna also claims that evangleicals make up 8% of our U.S. population. (8% x 270 million x 86% = 19 million, I rounded to 20 million.) If you accept the lds claim that it has 12 million members and agree to the claim that about half are in the U.S. then the math is: (6 million x 67% = 4 million. I rounded up to 5 million.) Hence the 20 million evangelicals compared to 5 million mormons. So by shear numbers and by percentage, evangleicals read the bible more than mormons according to Barna.

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Your statements are simply factually incorrect.  The Barna site that you cite is very clear.  Evangelicals who read the bible every week, by the Barna site statistics, outnumber lds by at least 20 million to 5 million.

You have got to be kidding. There is another stat about EVs being the least educated....

I'm not sure what your point is with that comment. But would it be fair to say that whatever direction you were going with it, one could take the same direction with Joseph Smith as a result of his lack of education?

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Guest johnny_cat
I think the math is relevant to those who claim that "mormons read the bible more than most" and then cite the Barna study for support.

I misunderstood your point. You were quoting from two different studies, and I saw only one of them. Sorry for the confusion.

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You are having to work at this awfully hard to avoid the reality that Mormons are at the top of the Bible reading scale, JLH. Comparing two completely different studies is rather pitiful. Barna's definition of evangelical allows anyone in....including Catholics and Pentacostals.

We categorize an

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Juliann,

You really should try and read the information without a chip on your shoulder.

The Barna study describes evangelicals as only 8% of the U.S. population. Common sense will tell you that if all the Catholics and Pentacostals you claim are included in this group, the number would dwarf the 20+ million I showed you the math on.

Read the study without all the emotions or your personal agenda. Perhaps it would just be better to thank someone for showing the flaw in your statement and be better off for it.

Now what was it you meant with your statement about evangelicals being less educated?

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I'm new to this site and message board and hoping to find some clarification and understanding...

I was told recently that as LDS members the Jesus we worship "is not the same person that the rest of 'mainstream' Chrsitianity worships"-REALLY???

What gives? His example seemed to lack a true understanding of what we mormons truly belive--mainly that (according to him) we think Christ was "promoted" to Godhood rather than divine from the beginning.

That is what evangelicals would tell you. However, I would put it differently. We worship the same Jesus. The chosen of God that came to earth and atoned for man.

However, the difference is between the Trinity and the Godhead - the definition of God's relationship with himself/themselves. In the classical Trinity, God has three expressions of one being. Many evangelicals try to explain it by comparing it to an egg, one egg and three parts. But that is a form of modalism, which St Augustine condemned. In truth, think of three carriages, each being driven by the same person at one time. That is the idea of Trinity - God's relationship to himself.

In the Godhead, we have three physically distinct beings that are so alike that a thought from one is as if all thought it exactly the same. Their relationship is so intense and intertwined that Jesus could tell his disciples, "if ye have seen me, ye have seen the Father."

So, if we couch the discussion in the true area of difference, we see that in reality, we DO worship the same Jesus.

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I'm new to this site and message board and hoping to find some clarification and understanding...

I was told recently that as LDS members the Jesus we worship "is not the same person that the rest of 'mainstream' Chrsitianity worships"-REALLY???

What gives? His example seemed to lack a true understanding of what we mormons truly belive--mainly that (according to him) we think Christ was "promoted" to Godhood rather than divine from the beginning.

four2ski, would you now agree that the example that you were given by him was essentially correct (though the word "attained" might be more accurate than the word "promoted") in describing LDS teaching?

The LDS Church does seem to teach that Jesus was not always God, but instead that He attained to Godhood at a certain point.

"Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws." The Gospel Through the Ages; Desert Book Co. 1945, p.51 (according to Berean Christian Ministries the title page has: "Written and published under the direction of the General Priesthood Committee of the Council of the Twelve of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.")

"Christ the Word, the First born, had of course attained unto the status of Godhood while yet in pre-existence." What the Mormons Think of Christ; LDS publication, p.36

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I await Brother/Professor Robert L. Millet's book entitled : A DIFFERENT JJESUS ? : THE CHRIST OF THE LATTER DAY SAINTS due out the end of March. And Ladies and Gentleman the publisher is....... EERDMANS PUBLISHERS. Go to www.eerdsmans.com/shop/product.asp?p_key=0802828760 for more info.

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Hi Ski

Read 2 cor. chapter 11, there is "another" Jesus, and another Gospel. And you are correct that LDS theology teach that all gods became a god through eternal laws and eternal progression. Sites like this ignor past leaders and teachings and are forming new doctrines in the name of scholarship. If you want to know what LDS theology demands read JFS, or Hunter, or Talmage etc. be sure to test what they(LDS scholarship) say with what leaders in the past say, and with what the Bible says. While I don't believe either view, it's wrong that LDS "scholarship" is deceiving those who really don't know what they believe as offical doctrine, while forming new thought and acting as if it is doctrine

LDS Scripture teach that Jesus was with God from the beginning and was one with God from the beginning. While we do believe that we can be gods, and that only through the grace and divine indwelling of God in us, Jesus did not progress, nor do I believe His father did. He is the eternal God of all other gods.

Teancum

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"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171).

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199).

"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

"The religion of God embraces every fact that exists in all the wide arena of nature, while the religions of men consist of theory devoid of fact, or of any true principle of guidance; hence the professing Christian world are like a ship upon a boisterous ocean without rudder, compass, or pilot, and are tossed hither and thither by every wind of doctrine" (Journal of Discourses 10:265).

"... the time came when Paganism was engrafted into Christianity, and at last Christianity was converted into Paganism rather than converting the Pagans" (Journal of Discourses 22:44).

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth" (Journal of Discourses 6:176). John Taylor (Mormonism's 3rd President) --

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense ...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing ...Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God" (Journal of Discourses 13:225).

sr

How funny. The battling rhetoric from the 19th century is the best you can do? I am sure I would have said the same things had I been subjected to the treatment of the so called Christians that was heaped upon the saints.

But certianly there is NOTHING in LDS behavior that rivals that counter cult activity of evangelical so called Christianity.

And that not withstanding the quotes of yester year.

Teancum

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