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four2ski

I have a couple of questions...

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I'm new to this site and message board and hoping to find some clarification and understanding...

I was told recently that as LDS members the Jesus we worship "is not the same person that the rest of 'mainstream' Chrsitianity worships"-REALLY???

What gives? His example seemed to lack a true understanding of what we mormons truly belive--mainly that (according to him) we think Christ was "promoted" to Godhood rather than divine from the beginning.

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Whoever told you that was misinformed. Christ was not "promoted" in LDS belief.

However, there is a version of Christianity that DOES believe just that. It is called Arianism.

So the argument that "our" Jesus is somehow different from mainstream Christianity loses it force when we realize that so-called mainstream (non-LDS) Christianity cannot agree on what their Jesus is either.

As one of my (liberal) Protestant friends once put it: Anyone can be a Christian who believes in God and thinks that Jesus had something important to do in regards to that God. (That something is best left undefined, since an argument will erupt.)

We may disagree on the details, in other words, but we ALL believe in Jesus. Isn't that enough to be called Christian?

Beowulf

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I was told recently that as LDS members the Jesus we worship "is not the same person that the rest of 'mainstream' Chrsitianity worships"-REALLY???

Just explain that just like many people have different views about say, "former President of the USA" Bill Clinton, it doesn't mean that there is a different "former President of the USA" Bill Clinton lurking around out there. Yes, the LDS paradigm contains some unique perspectives about Christ, but that is not to say that we are worshiping a different Christ than the one mentioned in the Bible. We assert that the Christ of the Bible and the Book of Mormon and the other scriptures to be one and the same.

Also see FAIR Topical Guide Home > Doctrinal Issues > Deity > Jesus Christ > LDS Worship a "Different" Jesus @ http://fairlds.org/apol/ai223.html

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Hi Ski

Read 2 cor. chapter 11, there is "another" Jesus, and another Gospel. And you are correct that LDS theology teach that all gods became a god through eternal laws and eternal progression. Sites like this ignor past leaders and teachings and are forming new doctrines in the name of scholarship. If you want to know what LDS theology demands read JFS, or Hunter, or Talmage etc. be sure to test what they(LDS scholarship) say with what leaders in the past say, and with what the Bible says. While I don't believe either view, it's wrong that LDS "scholarship" is deceiving those who really don't know what they believe as offical doctrine, while forming new thought and acting as if it is doctrine

Remember LDS theology demands that all, including gods, are bound by eternal laws. Man was born from intelligence to God parents and were thier spirit babies, then became human, pro-created to earthly parents, then and only then by obedience to all the laws and ordinences of the gospel can he hope to be 'exalted' to the very nature of god. LDS prophets have taught this and I challange you to find a retraction of these teachings by any authoritive sourse. The closest you will find is GBH doubt, in which he took alot of heat for.

Again read 2 Cor. 11 an dlet me know what you think?

Mark

John 1:12

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What gives? His example seemed to lack a true understanding of what we mormons truly belive--mainly that (according to him) we think Christ was "promoted" to Godhood rather than divine from the beginning.

"Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws." The Gospel Through the Ages; Desert Book Co. 1945, p.51 (according to Berean Christian Ministries the title page has: "Written and published under the direction of the General Priesthood Committee of the Council of the Twelve of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.")

"Christ the Word, the First born, had of course attained unto the status of Godhood while yet in pre-existence." What the Mormons Think of Christ; LDS publication, p.36

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Hi,

Orthodox Christians of the Reformed tradition believe there is only one true theological saving Jesus. So while there was only one guy in history known as Jesus Christ everybody preaches their own Jesus. If all Jesus's led to God then they wouldn't care whether you embraced another view Jesus.

A common objection is spirit birth. But to me other issues are more important. Can Jesus & Lucifer have one-time been brothers? Evangelicals believe First born as it relates to Jesus means he is pre-eminent only. Richard Hopkins in his book Biblical Mormonism argues firstborn can mean born first. So technically whoever is wrong has the wrong Jesus. This idea of a fallen brother of Jesus has been used as an excuse to say LDS have adopted an idolatrous different Jesus.

LDS also believe God & Christ are two modern persons not literally one modern person. Other faiths believe God is a single person with seperate centers of conciousness manifested as threee persons.

FAIR has extensively addressed all of the issues in it's articles. A brochure on it's history of what's new has one on Jesus & Lucifer are brother's. I remember the title but am not sure the date it was added or it's exact title.

Sincerely,

Dale

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This is kinda a bit of humor about the previous post.. but I think the term "Jesus's" should be Jesii. Kinda how more than one octopus is octopi. Sorry, couldnt resist.

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I was told recently that as LDS members the Jesus we worship "is not the same person that the rest of 'mainstream' Chrsitianity worships"-REALLY???

I would agree to some extent with this idea. But I don

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Mormons do view Jesus in a different light than other Christians. We worship divine Men, not an entity or supernatural essence that cannot be approached.

Markk is correct about LDS theology in Godmaking. Jesus was once only an angel like unto his brothers and sisters. Lucifer was our brother, and he was loved and admired. There were many spirits that liked Lucifer better than Jehovah just like we have preferences and friendships on this earth. But those spirits who refused to conform to God

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Thanks to all for replying and the food for thought...

Read 2 cor. chapter 11, there is "another" Jesus, and another Gospel.

Again read 2 Cor. 11 an dlet me know what you think?

Markk...here's what I think....

If I understand the history correctly, when Paul was writing to the saints in Corinth he was addressing a very real problem facing the Christians everywhere...false apostles preaching a gospel contrary to that of Christ's. The apostles were very concerned that a "falling away" was already under way, and he was warning the saints to be careful not to be led astray (1Cor. 7:5; 2 The. 2:3,7; Rev 2:2). Paul says in chaper 11 that "the truth of Christ is in me," and that he has suffered because of his testimony of Christ. He tells the saints to judge these "false prophets" by their works...and I would guess by their long-suffering for Christ's sake.

So if we can judge the Christians by their long-suffering for Christ's sake. I would think we're just as much Christian as the next "mainstream" guy...

I guess if you're going to use 2 cor. 11 to show that the LDS church is teaching "another Jesus", you must first accept the premise that some other church had the first Jesus....don't you? :P The LDS church traces it's authority from Christ through Peter, James and John...then aren't we preaching Christ's gospel?

I'm going to have to concur with pseudogratix-

Yes, the LDS paradigm contains some unique perspectives about Christ, but that is not to say that we are worshiping a different Christ than the one mentioned in the Bible. We assert that the Christ of the Bible and the Book of Mormon and the other scriptures to be one and the same.

Again...thanks for the responses

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Guest johnny_cat
"Written and published under the direction of the General Priesthood Committee of the Council of the Twelve of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Which of course explains why the correlation program was created in 1970.

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But we would never stoop so low as to accuse any other Christian sect of being unChristian because their beliefs differ from ours.

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73).

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171).

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199).

"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

"The religion of God embraces every fact that exists in all the wide arena of nature, while the religions of men consist of theory devoid of fact, or of any true principle of guidance; hence the professing Christian world are like a ship upon a boisterous ocean without rudder, compass, or pilot, and are tossed hither and thither by every wind of doctrine" (Journal of Discourses 10:265).

"... the time came when Paganism was engrafted into Christianity, and at last Christianity was converted into Paganism rather than converting the Pagans" (Journal of Discourses 22:44).

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth" (Journal of Discourses 6:176). John Taylor (Mormonism's 3rd President) --

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense ...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing ...Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God" (Journal of Discourses 13:225).

sr

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sr,

It looks as if I stumbled into your little snare, there. My 'we' was meant as me and four2ski, along with all the other well-mannered posters on this board.

Please remember, though, that the JD speakers of more than 100 years ago had experienced first-hand the Christian brotherhood of many of the communities from which they had been driven, and it's understandable to expect a bit of an attitude on their part. I'll keep your quotes in mind, though, for the future.

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Pelagoram: It looks as if I stumbled into your little snare, there. My 'we' was meant as me and four2ski, along with all the other well-mannered posters on this board.

There was no snare, that was my first post on this thread.

Pelagoram: Please remember, though, that the JD speakers of more than 100 years ago had experienced first-hand the Christian brotherhood of many of the communities from which they had been driven, and it's understandable to expect a bit of an attitude on their part. I'll keep your quotes in mind, though, for the future.

Either what they said was true, or it was not true. Which is it? Another question to ask is whether or not those writers believed what they were saying was true.

Also keep in mind that the foundation of the LDS churchs rests on the claim that there was a "total apostasy", that for many centuries there was no Christian Church on the face of the earth. Hence a restoration was required instead of a reformation.

As far as your mannerisms on this board, I agree, you seem very well mannered. That is appreciated.

sr

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sr,

I could probably make a case for both sides of your quotes, but without dredging up the context of each I'll just try to stay on this thread.

'Total apostasy' for us means loss of the authority and structure of the Church along with important doctrines about the Savior. We don't believe a reformation was enough to correct those conditions. You have probably noticed that even among the LDS there are a variety of differing opinions about Jesus and the atonement. We're all doing our best to come to a knowledge and understanding of the truth. His sheep hear His voice, and the Spirit will teach those who are honest in heart.

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Hi Tubaloth,

Your argueing against yourself, I never said I didn't care I said, I said I didn't believe either view, I do care, I care deeply, thats why I'm here. I'm not teaching you anything, I'm just expounding on what has already been taught, including Lorenzo Snow. If what i have said is wrong instead of making things up I didn't say just give some reference from a authoritive LDS member that what I said was wrong, then we can look at it and discuss it. I didn't make up that God was a man before he became a god, Joseph smith did, your argument should be with him, not me.

Hi four2ski,

Your corret it was a real problem back then as it is today. Paul make it clear that if another preaches another gospel other to that what the Apostles have taught they should watch out. So if LDS theology is the same as the apostles taught, then the bible would reflect that, but it doesn't. Jesus is not by nature the same nature of Satan, thats another Jesus. Ever essential tendon of the Christian faith is in direct confliction with the LDS faith, thats makes it a 'dfferent gospel'.

Mark

John 1:12

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Once again Paul is teaching speculation as doctrine.

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But we would never stoop so low as to accuse any other Christian sect of being unChristian because their beliefs differ from ours.

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73).

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171).

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199).

"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

"The religion of God embraces every fact that exists in all the wide arena of nature, while the religions of men consist of theory devoid of fact, or of any true principle of guidance; hence the professing Christian world are like a ship upon a boisterous ocean without rudder, compass, or pilot, and are tossed hither and thither by every wind of doctrine" (Journal of Discourses 10:265).

"... the time came when Paganism was engrafted into Christianity, and at last Christianity was converted into Paganism rather than converting the Pagans" (Journal of Discourses 22:44).

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth" (Journal of Discourses 6:176). John Taylor (Mormonism's 3rd President) --

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense ...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing ...Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God" (Journal of Discourses 13:225).

sr

Why do you cite the JoD as if it is relevant to the doctrines of the church? You may as well cite the NY Times on matters of government policy.

If there was no apostesy, then there was no need for a REFORMATION.

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Hi LDS 4ever,

You said..."Why do you cite the JoD as if it is relevant to the doctrines of the church? You may as well cite the NY Times on matters of government policy" (end quote)

If thats a valid argument why go to or watch conference or sacrament meeting, just stay home and read the Times. The JOD is what the general authorities taught, it is the cable of early church. If you believe the quotes are irresponsible teachings just say so, because either right or wrong they are teachings of the LDS church by thier leaders.

Mark

John 1:12

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Hi LDS 4ever,

You said..."Why do you cite the JoD as if it is relevant to the doctrines of the church? You may as well cite the NY Times on matters of government policy" (end quote)

If thats a valid argument why go to or watch conference or sacrament meeting, just stay home and read the Times. The JOD is what the general authorities taught, it is the cable of early church. If you believe the quotes are irresponsible teachings just say so, because either right or wrong they are teachings of the LDS church by thier leaders.

Mark

John 1:12

The JoD are no more binding doctrines of the LDS church anymore than the words of Jessie Jackson or Jerry Falwell are binding to the Baptist. They are the express opinions of the speakers/writers. They may be good for instruction, enlightenment or guidance, but they are none the less...opinion, and not the official doctrines of the church.

Any critic with credability already knows this and won't use them.

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Jehovah was once an angel and was indeed promoted to Godhood. There was also a time when our God was a just an angel and he became a mortal man.

And here I thought that we were children of God...not children of angels. Are your children puppies, Paul? :P

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The JOD is what the general authorities taught, it is the cable of early church. If you believe the quotes are irresponsible teachings just say so, because either right or wrong they are teachings of the LDS church by thier leaders.

Well, actually it is a collection of quite a few things. But what difference does it make? Unless you are willing to stand behind everything ever said by a Christian leader 100 years ago...don't expect anyone else to no matter how convenient it may be for your agenda.

If you want us to accept your modern version of Christianity then it is necessary for you to accept our modern beliefs.

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Read 2 cor. chapter 11, there is "another" Jesus, and another Gospel.

This always gives me a chuckle. LDS read their Bible more than most. And we think that scripture is a perfect warning about you and your false teachings. But we know how saying that turns people away from Christ instead of towards him.

Sites like this ignor past leaders and teachings and are forming new doctrines in the name of scholarship.

:P

While I don't believe either view, it's wrong that LDS "scholarship" is deceiving  those who really don't know what they believe as offical doctrine, while forming new thought and acting as if it is doctrine

What would we do without anti-Mormons to teach us what we really believe? Do you know what you believe beyond Bible bashing?

Remember LDS theology demands that all, including gods, are bound by eternal laws.

Yup. Close. And you worship a magic book.

Again read 2 Cor. 11 an dlet me know what you think?

I think that you sound a lot like the false apostles that Paul warns about. I'm sure that is not what you expected...but I do not see any knowledge of what Paul taught coming from you.

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This always gives me a chuckle.  LDS read their Bible more than most.

Is this a statement of fact or just something you have always been told?

It always gives me a chuckle when people attempt to raise "emotional statements" to the level of sound "factual statements" in order to make their point!

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