Remnant/Snuffer leading entire stakes towards apostasy?

[rockpond]

Doug Fabrizio interviewed Lindsey Hansen Park on his RadioWest show regarding Denver Snuffer and the Remnant movement.  It's a very interesting interview if you are looking to learn more about that topic.  I'm sure there are multiple ways to listen to it but the one I use is to download the podcast via iTunes.  But, to my question...

At one point in the interview, Fabrizio asks Park if she believes that the church leadership sees the Remnant movement as a threat.  Park responded that she has been forwarded "leaked" correspondence between stake presidents and area authorities revealing groups of membership in the Wasatch Front area and, in some cases, even entire stakes that are moving toward apostasy as a result of their belief in the Remnant or Snuffer movement.

That's quite a claim.  Personally, I only know a few people who have left the church for that reason but among them in a direct descendant of Bruce R. McConkie -- which was surprising to me.  Obviously Snuffer earned a spot on the infamous "bubble chart" of church threats that was leaked but so did a number of other people/issues.

I'm wondering if those of you who do live in the Mormon corridor have seen any other evidence of Park's claim.

[JLHPROF]

Just now, rockpond said:

Park responded that she has been forwarded "leaked" correspondence between stake presidents and area authorities revealing groups of membership in the Wasatch Front area and, in some cases, even entire stakes that are moving toward apostasy as a result of their belief in the Remnant or Snuffer movement.

Sounds a little self-important to me.

Just another splinter movement.  There have been over 100 since the Church was founded.  This one is no different except that it's contemporary.

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Sounds a little self-important to me.

Just another splinter movement.  There have been over 100 since the Church was founded.  This one is no different except that it's contemporary.

Self-important?  Park is not a part of the Remnant.

Also, she claims that her research shows over 400 splinter groups... but I'm guessing that you can start counting a lot of sub-groups (splinters off of splinters) to get to that number.

 

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Doug Fabrizio interviewed Lindsey Hansen Park on his RadioWest show regarding Denver Snuffer and the Remnant movement.  It's a very interesting interview if you are looking to learn more about that topic.  I'm sure there are multiple ways to listen to it but the one I use is to download the podcast via iTunes.  But, to my question...

At one point in the interview, Fabrizio asks Park if she believes that the church leadership sees the Remnant movement as a threat.  Park responded that she has been forwarded "leaked" correspondence between stake presidents and area authorities revealing groups of membership in the Wasatch Front area and, in some cases, even entire stakes that are moving toward apostasy as a result of their belief in the Remnant or Snuffer movement.

That's quite a claim.  Personally, I only know a few people who have left the church for that reason but among them in a direct descendant of Bruce R. McConkie -- which was surprising to me.  Obviously Snuffer earned a spot on the infamous "bubble chart" of church threats that was leaked but so did a number of other people/issues.

I'm wondering if those of you who do live in the Mormon corridor have seen any other evidence of Park's claim.

I'm not familiar with anyone who follows him.  I've heard nothing about anything remotely like this from stake leadership (and one of the counselors is a good friend of mine that I've served with in a number of callings). 

Could this somehow be a retelling of a retelling of Elder Oaks trip to Boise?  (which if I remember right was beaten past death so I hesitate to bring it up )

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not familiar with anyone who follows him.  I've heard nothing about anything remotely like this from stake leadership (and one of the counselors is a good friend of mine that I've served with in a number of callings). 

Could this somehow be a retelling of a retelling of Elder Oaks trip to Boise?  (which if I remember right was beaten past death so I hesitate to bring it up )

I don't think it is a retelling of the "Boise Rescue".  It isn't like Park to sensationalize that sort of thing.

[Calm]

From the websites of Snuffer's fans, I think his movement is widespread, but I don't see any clue that it is significantly dense in numbers in any areas.  I would not be surprised to hear of individual or a few high councilors or members in stake presidencies that get sucked in, but enough of them and bishops and the rest to take whole stakes that way...I would have to see much more than just a report of reports.

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I don't think it is a retelling of the "Boise Rescue".  It isn't like Park to sensationalize that sort of thing.

I didn't mean to imply that it was being sensationalized, just wondering about the possibility of details changing as they pass through different hands.

[Duncan]

I can possibly see stake numbers wise going away but  say the Salt Lake Bubblegum South Stake going into total apostasy seems a bit much to swallow

[rockpond]

7 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I didn't mean to imply that it was being sensationalized, just wondering about the possibility of details changing as they pass through different hands.

Certainly possible.  But in this case, Park's claim is multiple leaked emails (between SP's and GA's) being put in her hands.

But, as Calm said, I have a hard time imagining how an entire stake apostasizes.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, rockpond said:

Doug Fabrizio interviewed Lindsey Hansen Park on his RadioWest show regarding Denver Snuffer and the Remnant movement.  It's a very interesting interview if you are looking to learn more about that topic.  I'm sure there are multiple ways to listen to it but the one I use is to download the podcast via iTunes.  But, to my question...

At one point in the interview, Fabrizio asks Park if she believes that the church leadership sees the Remnant movement as a threat.  Park responded that she has been forwarded "leaked" correspondence between stake presidents and area authorities revealing groups of membership in the Wasatch Front area and, in some cases, even entire stakes that are moving toward apostasy as a result of their belief in the Remnant or Snuffer movement.

That's quite a claim.  Personally, I only know a few people who have left the church for that reason but among them in a direct descendant of Bruce R. McConkie -- which was surprising to me.  Obviously Snuffer earned a spot on the infamous "bubble chart" of church threats that was leaked but so did a number of other people/issues.

I'm wondering if those of you who do live in the Mormon corridor have seen any other evidence of Park's claim.

Not I.

But then I'm constantly amazed at how immune my ward seems to be from the weird stuff I read about on this message board and elsewhere: no contentious Sunday School or priesthood meeting classes, no battles over politics, no brazen contradiction or defiance of statements from the Brethren, nobody denying Book of Mormon historicity or staking out unauthoritative claims about its geography, no unauthorized revision of the three-hour Sabbath day meeting block, no wacky folk getting up during fast-and-testimony meeting, no men coming to church dressed in women's clothes, no male couples holding hands during meetings, no women wearing pants to church as an ideological statement, no 12-year-old girls trying to hijack meetings with contra-doctrinal propaganda.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[rongo]

Don't you think that the Church/the Brethren would be responding far differently than they have been/are if "entire stakes" in the Wasatch Front were leaving in droves in favor of Snufferism? If that were true, it would be being addressed directly and unmistakably, as opposed to how it is being addressed (i.e., not at all, other than the Boise Rescue, and even then, they denied that that was its purpose).

In my experience, his influence is sporadic and piecemeal (my cousin and his family are baptized Snufferites, and his brothers had me read "Passing the Heavenly Gift" years ago for commentary. The family is solid, and they have their heads on straight, so it is a tragedy with their brother). So, I do know some followers. 

His danger (and the reason he appeared on the bubble chart) is that he is capable of peeling off strong-believing members in ways that atheists/agnostics/humanists/liberals can't. He has the potential to appeal to and attract conservative, believing members (read: literalness/historicity members) who are increasingly disappointed with corporatism and perceived lack of revelation in the upper Church leadership. By far, the vast majority of people who leave the body of the Saints don't believe the truth claims; Snufferites do --- in spades. 

The Phoenix area has another apostle --->stake presidencies and bishops meeting in September. I am interested to see if there are any indications of concern or updates on changes on a lot of things. 

I've heard Dan Peterson quote an ancient Chinese curse multiple times: May you live in interesting times. We certainly live in interesting times!

[ksfisher]

45 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Certainly possible.  But in this case, Park's claim is multiple leaked emails (between SP's and GA's) being put in her hands.

But, as Calm said, I have a hard time imagining how an entire stake apostasizes.

That's why I'm wondering if information is not somehow being garbled.  An entire stake?  I could see a stake president being concerned about individuals in several wards, but not an entire stake apostatizing. 

[rongo]

49 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Certainly possible.  But in this case, Park's claim is multiple leaked emails (between SP's and GA's) being put in her hands.

But, as Calm said, I have a hard time imagining how an entire stake apostasizes.

It's funny how critics of the Church get a pass when making colorful/off-the-cuff/hyperbolic statements in ways that, say, Elder Holland and other people get held to the fire. 

I'm sure if pinned down on it, she would have chosen her words more carefully. "Entire stakes" is much more ridiculous than any of Elder Holland's passing on of stories.

And why, oh why, would anyone give leaked emails from SPs to GAs to Lindsay Hansen Park. That kind of tells you "which way they face" right there.  

[Atheist Mormon]

 

Quote

Remnant/Snuffer leading entire stakes towards apostasy?

Is this "Denver Snuffer" a real name?

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, rongo said:

Don't you think that the Church/the Brethren would be responding far differently than they have been/are if "entire stakes" in the Wasatch Front were leaving in droves in favor of Snufferism? If that were true, it would be being addressed directly and unmistakably, as opposed to how it is being addressed (i.e., not at all, other than the Boise Rescue, and even then, they denied that that was its purpose).

In my experience, his influence is sporadic and piecemeal (my cousin and his family are baptized Snufferites, and his brothers had me read "Passing the Heavenly Gift" years ago for commentary. The family is solid, and they have their heads on straight, so it is a tragedy with their brother). So, I do know some followers. 

His danger (and the reason he appeared on the bubble chart) is that he is capable of peeling off strong-believing members in ways that atheists/agnostics/humanists/liberals can't. He has the potential to appeal to and attract conservative, believing members (read: literalness/historicity members) who are increasingly disappointed with corporatism and perceived lack of revelation in the upper Church leadership. By far, the vast majority of people who leave the body of the Saints don't believe the truth claims; Snufferites do --- in spades. 

The Phoenix area has another apostle --->stake presidencies and bishops meeting in September. I am interested to see if there are any indications of concern or updates on changes on a lot of things. 

I've heard Dan Peterson quote an ancient Chinese curse multiple times: May you live in interesting times. We certainly live in interesting times!

I bolded your first question.  I think it's a great question.  There is a part of me that would really like to hear them address Denver Snuffer's teachings and claimed revelations.  But...

My answer to your question is "no".  I actually don't think they would respond differently.  I believe (others disagree) that we have a significant number of members leaving the church over specific doctrinal and historical issues.  The Brethren have attempted to address that through the anonymously authored gospel topics essays.  But they have given those essays and topics little attention in General Conference and church curriculum.  Instead, we get more generic messages like stay in the ship, give Brother Joseph a break, and wrong roads.  To me, that seems like the strategy:  don't bring up the details of troubling topics because you are likely to do more damage than good.

I think the Brethren won't risk talking "directly and unmistakably" about Snuffer and the Remnant movement because they don't want to raise awareness.

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, rongo said:

It's funny how critics of the Church get a pass when making colorful/off-the-cuff/hyperbolic statements in ways that, say, Elder Holland and other people get held to the fire. 

I'm sure if pinned down on it, she would have chosen her words more carefully. "Entire stakes" is much more ridiculous than any of Elder Holland's passing on of stories.

And why, oh why, would anyone give leaked emails from SPs to GAs to Lindsay Hansen Park. That kind of tells you "which way they face" right there.  

I'm not giving her a pass.  I'm questioning it and asking to see if there is even a shred of corresponding evidence.

Park has devoted years to studying the splinter groups -- I assume that is why someone would leak the correspondence to her.

[rockpond]

6 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

 

Is this "Denver Snuffer" a real name?

Yes, according to what I have heard/read from several sources.  Per Amazon.com, he has authored over 20 books with the name Denver C. Snuffer, Jr.  I looked up that name on wikipedia and didn't see anything regarding it being a pseudonym.

[ksfisher]

5 minutes ago, rockpond said:

  There is a part of me that would really like to hear them address Denver Snuffer's teachings and claimed revelations.  But...

 

Would addressing Snuffer's claims directly add more legitimacy to those claims in some peoples eyes?

[rongo]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

I bolded your first question.  I think it's a great question.  There is a part of me that would really like to hear them address Denver Snuffer's teachings and claimed revelations.  But...

My answer to your question is "no".  I actually don't think they would respond differently.  I believe (others disagree) that we have a significant number of members leaving the church over specific doctrinal and historical issues.  The Brethren have attempted to address that through the anonymously authored gospel topics essays.  But they have given those essays and topics little attention in General Conference and church curriculum.  Instead, we get more generic messages like stay in the ship, give Brother Joseph a break, and wrong roads.  To me, that seems like the strategy:  don't bring up the details of troubling topics because you are likely to do more damage than good.

I think the Brethren won't risk talking "directly and unmistakably" about Snuffer and the Remnant movement because they don't want to raise awareness.

I guess I'm nitpicking at her "entire stakes" wording. Yes, people are leaving, but they are not leaving in large enough numbers in geographically small enough locations to come anywhere close to "entire stakes" (maybe she meant "you could make whole stakes out of them," sort of how the Church will say that this or that many converts per year "would make X number of new stakes," when the local impact does not result in new units).

If whole stakes, or even whole wards, were embracing Snufferism, all heck would break loose. I had direct experience with the beginning of the Bremen Apostasy, and my former YW president's parents were in the epicenter of the carnage in Armenia a couple of years ago. Believe me --- when whole units leave, it is a huge deal, and leaves a huge impact. We would all know if "entire stakes" were embracing Snufferism (or even just removing their names).

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

Would addressing Snuffer's claims directly add more legitimacy to those claims in some peoples eyes?

I doubt that the Brethren would do it in a way that would add legitimacy.  But it could stir up interest and entice some to start looking up more info on him.

[Duncan]

8 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

 

Is this "Denver Snuffer" a real name?

No, I think it's a pseuodonym, his real name is Machine Gun Mcgillicutty

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

I guess I'm nitpicking at her "entire stakes" wording. Yes, people are leaving, but they are not leaving in large enough numbers in geographically small enough locations to come anywhere close to "entire stakes" (maybe she meant "you could make whole stakes out of them," sort of how the Church will say that this or that many converts per year "would make X number of new stakes," when the local impact does not result in new units).

If whole stakes, or even whole wards, were embracing Snufferism, all heck would break loose. I had direct experience with the beginning of the Bremen Apostasy, and my former YW president's parents were in the epicenter of the carnage in Armenia a couple of years ago. Believe me --- when whole units leave, it is a huge deal, and leaves a huge impact. We would all know if "entire stakes" were embracing Snufferism (or even just removing their names).

That could be what she meant... Fabrizio did not ask follow up questions on that particular statement.

[ttribe]

16 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

 

Is this "Denver Snuffer" a real name?

Amazingly, yes...I'll not comment on what this brings up in my head everytime I hear his name.

[The Nehor]

It amazes me how easily some people are led away like this. I almost wish I had no conscience and was okay with eternal hellfire. Then I could make a much more appealing (and profitable) break off from the LDS church.

[Atheist Mormon]

16 minutes ago, Duncan said:

No, I think it's a pseuodonym, his real name is Machine Gun Mcgillicutty

Now that was way, way over the top....