Why does Holy Ghost transform lives in many religions if "True Church" authority is required?

[Meerkat]

Boblloyd91's topic for Catholic posters got me thinking about the Cross, the Atonement, Eternal Life and how He makes His plan known to us. Hence, the subject of my topic:  Why does the Holy Ghost transform lives in many religions if "True Church" authority is required for salvation?

People in many religions testify how Christ has transformed their lives through the Holy Ghost.  

How can religions, who claim no authority other than faith in Jesus Christ, obtain Salvation when according to Mark 16:16, Jesus Christ told his disciples "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned?' "

How can the Catholic Church claim that "The one true Church established by Christ is the Catholic Church."

How can the LDS Church claim to be "The only true and living Church."

How do Christians feel about salvation for non believers?

Hope for Christians:

1.  George Beverly Shay version of "The Old Rugged Cross."  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpjjC3f1FvI

Hope for Non Christians

2.  The Poem "Abu Ben Adhem."    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poems_That_Every_Child_Should_Know/Abou_Ben_Adhem

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Meerkat

[The Nehor]

Because the Holy Ghost is God and can do whatever he likes to bless whomever he likes and does not answer to us.

[Robert F. Smith]

"Why does the Holy Ghost indiscriminately testify of Christ to people of many and no religions if 'true church' authority is required?"

Not sure that the Holy Spirit (Spiritus Sanctus) does anything "indiscriminately," least of all providing a witness to people far and wide without a reason -- even if we don't understand why.  Joseph Smith did repeatedly insist that others (outside the Church) could certainly be inspired.  Let truth come from where it may, he said.

This is a completely separate matter from the need for actual priesthood authority and an authorized Church on the Earth which can preach the real Gospel of Jesus Christ, build temples, restore all things, and conduct the ordinances in preparation for the last days before the coming of Christ the second and final time.

The LDS Church is the Kingdom of God on Earth, and its members are the Saints of the Last Days.

[hope_for_things]

28 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Boblloyd91's topic for Catholic posters got me thinking about the Cross, the Atonement, Eternal Life and how He makes His plan known to us. Hence, the subject of my topic:  Why does the Holy Ghost indiscriminately testify of Christ to people of many and no religions if "true church" authority is required? 

Christians of many stripes, be they Catholic, Mormon, Protestant, Adventist, Pentecostal, etc. testify of the love of God and how Christ has transformed their lives.  They are able to do this because the Holy Ghost has testified to them, and Heavenly Father, through the Holy Ghost, has transformed their lives.

On what basis can religions, who claim no authority other than faith in Jesus Christ, obtain Salvation when according to Mark 16:16, Jesus Christ told his disciples "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned?' "  Is belief all that is required?

If authority is required, why does the Holy Ghost testify of Christ and transform the lives of many people, regardless of their Church affiliation, no affiliation, or no ordinances such as baptism being performed?

On what basis can the Catholic Church claim that "The one true Church established by Christ is the Catholic Church."

On what basis can the LDS Church claim to be "The only true and living Church."

Can a person receive Salvation who never had faith in Jesus Christ?

Please respond in whatever manner you like.  Here are two files for your consideration:

Hope for Christians:

1.  George Beverly Shay version of "The Old Rugged Cross."  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpjjC3f1FvI

Hope for Non Christians

2.  The Poem "Abu Ben Adhem."    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poems_That_Every_Child_Should_Know/Abou_Ben_Adhem

I no longer think of the HG as having a distinct consciousness.  Rather I think the HG is the experience people have inside their mind when they experience elevation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation_(emotion)) and this experience is commonly interpreted as a divine experience.  

Because these experiences are subjective, they don't prove any objective and universal claims about a one true institution, or one path to salvation.  I think all of those exclusivity arguments are just humans doing what humans do, putting together post hoc justifications for their beliefs.  I don't see any of that as divine or inspired or even necessary.  These claims can create group cohesion, but at the expense of alienation and othering.  I think the cons definitely outweigh the pros.  

Its interesting that Joseph Smith's original orientation was to eschew the institutional claims (remember his Dad and grandfather were universalists and had that independent streak where they didn't think you need a church to have a relationship with God), if you read the BoM and other early revelations they don't talk about a specific church denomination being exclusively true.  I listened to a really fascinating presentation on this subject at Sunstone by Christopher C. Smith, about the early church development and his hypothesis is that Cowdery was the driving force behind forming a church, not Joseph.  Its really a compelling idea, he's working on an essay that he told me would be completed sometime this fall.  

In summary, the HG doesn't work the way that many religions claim it does.  Actually, if you ask people about there individual experiences, the experience itself is largely independent from their interpretation of the experience.  They will tell you how they felt and how impactful the feelings were, but it is the explanation of what it means that comes second, and this is how our minds make sense of experiences.  We have the experience, but we then create the story to explain what it means.  Its that story that is separate from the experience, that is used to justify a truth claim about a religion.  

[Kenngo1969]

1. Because, while  there is only one path which will lead a person all the way back to God, there are many paths which will lead him most of the way there;
2. Because God is merciful;
3. Because He loves us;
4. Because, as The Nehor has hinted, God is a Sovereign.

[Robert F. Smith]

Glad to see you change the OP title, Meerkat.

[pogi]

It is important to distinguish between the light of Christ, the Holy Ghost, and the gift of the Holy Ghost.  The only one that requires authority is the gift of the Holy Ghost.  A gift that must be "received" by baptized members and not necessarily obtained by all.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

It is important to distinguish between the light of Christ, the Holy Ghost, and the gift of the Holy Ghost.  The only one that requires authority is the gift of the Holy Ghost.  A gift that must be "received" by baptized members and not necessarily obtained by all.

This.
There are clear differences in Mormon theology.
The trick is understanding how these three elements operate differently.  Because if we can say that a Catholic receives answers from the light of Christ but a Mormon receives answers from the gift of the Holy Ghost, but both are receiving spiritual answers what difference does it make?
As long as God is answering prayers and inspiring mankind, there must be an additional reason to seek the gift of the Holy Ghost that is higher and more far reaching than the Light of Christ given to EVERY man.

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

1. Because, while  there is only one path which will lead a person all the way back to God, there are many paths which will lead him most of the way there;
2. Because God is merciful;
3. Because He loves us;
4. Because, as The Nehor has hinted, God is a Sovereign.

I agree with 1,2, and 3.  Although 4 is true, I believe He is eminently fair.  I read Nehor's comment to mean that God can be arbitrary and capricious.  If He is, please defend that position.  Saying He is a Sovereign, does not explain His fairness in the context of transforming lives in many religions if "True Church" authority is required for Salvation.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Meerkat

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Meerkat said:

If authority is required, why does the Holy Ghost testify of Christ and transform the lives of many people, regardless of their Church affiliation, no affiliation, or no ordinances such as baptism being performed?

Authority is not required to have the Holy Ghost act on you. It's just required to give the gift of the Holy Ghost. Mormons make a big distinction between the two. But it's Mormon doctrine that "to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God." (D&C 46:11) So I don't doubt in the least God acts on people independent of the Church including gifts of the spirit. 

Eventually though everyone will need to be baptized by authority and enter into the order of the priesthood by proper authority.

[Kenngo1969]

8 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

I agree with 1,2, and 3.  Although 4 is true, I believe He is eminently fair.  I read Nehor's comment to mean that God can be arbitrary and capricious.  If He is, please defend that position.  Saying He is a Sovereign, does not explain His fairness in the context of why He transforms lives in many religions, if "True Church" authority is required for Salvation.

He's a sovereign, in part, because He has a perfect, Eternal perspective which we mortals lack.  

Edited August 10, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Meerkat]

17 hours ago, pogi said:

It is important to distinguish between the light of Christ, the Holy Ghost, and the gift of the Holy Ghost.  The only one that requires authority is the gift of the Holy Ghost.  A gift that must be "received" by baptized members and not necessarily obtained by all.

I see the differences.  I have friends in many religions who have faith in Jesus Christ, whose lives have been changed for the better through their faith in Him.  Some acknowledge that the Holy Ghost has made the difference.  Others say they became converted by reading the Scriptures.  As a Mormon, I can discern the difference between the influence of the Holy Ghost that comes and goes, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion.  However, I know many Christians outside our Church who believe they have been saved from their lives of sin due to their faith in Jesus Christ, following His teachings, and the still, small voice.  Some are so kind and good, if they don't one day dwell with God, the question is, why could I?  

Edited August 11, 2017 by Meerkat

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Meerkat said:

I agree with 1,2, and 3.  Although 4 is true, I believe He is eminently fair.  I read Nehor's comment to mean that God can be arbitrary and capricious.  If He is, please defend that position.  Saying He is a Sovereign, does not explain His fairness in the context of transforming lives in many religions if "True Church" authority is required for Salvation.

I do not believe God's state traps him into only having one choice for every decision. In that sense he can be arbitrary between good choices. Capricious? No.

[Bernard Gui]

17 hours ago, Meerkat said:

People in many religions testify how Christ has transformed their lives through the Holy Ghost.  

I thought about this....

2 Nephi 31: 3 For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding

Alma 29:5 Yea, and I know that good and evil have come before all men; he that knoweth not good from evil is blameless; but he that knoweth good and evil, to him it is given according to his desires, whether he desireth good or evil, life or death, joy or remorse of conscience.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Robert F. Smith]

Here is an apostle preaching directly from the Bible:  

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I do not believe God's state traps him into only having one choice for every decision. In that sense he can be arbitrary between good choices. Capricious? No.

I really hope Eternity isn't choosing the one best choice out of all the rest each time a choice is presented us.

I really like the whole 31 flavours concept of life.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Calm said:

I really hope Eternity isn't choosing the one best choice out of all the rest each time a choice is presented us.

I really like the whole 31 flavours concept of life.

If deity is locked into only a single decision then there would be no point in trying to create more gods as there would be no diversity amongst them.

[Darren10]

9 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Boblloyd91's topic for Catholic posters got me thinking about the Cross, the Atonement, Eternal Life and how He makes His plan known to us. Hence, the subject of my topic:  Why does the Holy Ghost transform lives in many religions if "True Church" authority is required for salvation?

People in many religions testify how Christ has transformed their lives through the Holy Ghost.  

How can religions, who claim no authority other than faith in Jesus Christ, obtain Salvation when according to Mark 16:16, Jesus Christ told his disciples "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned?' "

How can the Catholic Church claim that "The one true Church established by Christ is the Catholic Church."

How can the LDS Church claim to be "The only true and living Church."

How do Christians feel about salvation for non believers?

Hope for Christians:

1.  George Beverly Shay version of "The Old Rugged Cross."  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpjjC3f1FvI

Hope for Non Christians

2.  The Poem "Abu Ben Adhem."    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poems_That_Every_Child_Should_Know/Abou_Ben_Adhem

 

God is in charge of the whom, the what, the where, the when, the why, and the how when it comes to salvation and that includes the Holy Spirit. I know what the Spirit has testified to me and I stand by it but since I am not a member of the Godhead I cannot dictate to others the spiritual promptings they receive. I typically trust what they tell me. My life's experience has lead me to conclude that the Holy Spirit manifests Himself in part according to the experiences a person has had up to that point. To me this helps make sense of why many people of many different religions receive spiritual promptings and guidance.

[california boy]

I think that Christ really believed that we should love God with all our heart.  That can be a very individual journey. Not everyone's heart feels the exact same things.  Being true to your own feelings and inspiration is very much a part of that commandment.  It is really irrelevant what is in another man's heart.  They are not you and it is not your concern.

Then the second thing that Christ really cared about is how we love and treat others.  If we fail at this, then it really doesn't matter much what other areas we have succeeded in.  Nor does it matter what church you attended.

The Holy Ghost's mission is to help us succeed in both commandments.  If you are successful in doing those two things, then I can't see  what religion you belong to has any relevance.  Everything else can be sorted out after we die.  But if you do not succeed in doing what these two commandments, then all the other details of what church you belong to or what ordinances you have participated in or how many meetings you have attended really don't matter one bit.

[CV75]

14 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I see the differences.  I have friends in many religions who have faith in Jesus Christ, whose lives have been changed for the better through their faith in Him.  Some acknowledge that the Holy Ghost has made the difference.  Others say they became converted by reading the Scriptures.  As a Mormon, I can discern the difference between the influence of the Holy Ghost that comes and goes, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion.  However, I know many Christians outside our Church who have been saved from their lives of sin due to their faith in Jesus Christ, following His teachings, and the still, small voice.  Some are so kind and good, if they don't one day dwell with God, the question is, why could I?  

First time doing this on my phone lol

The Holy Spirit of Promise and the ordinances leading to it require confirmation, bestowal of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and receiving the Holy Ghost. That is the difference but your friends will not be denied an opportunity to receive these things.

Edited August 11, 2017 by CV75

[Kevin Christensen]

Quote

My reading of verse 30, regarding the distinction of the church, suggests that the word “only” applies to the phrase “with which I, the Lord am well pleased.” (Consider a sentence about the “only blue and idling car upon the face of the whole parking lot, with which I, the attendant, am well pleased.” That is not just a florid and emphatic way to say “only blue car” but provides a very different thought.) The “well-pleased” designation in D&C 1 applies to the church and is relative to what “true and living” means as descriptive qualities for church. It happens that the Biblical occurrences of true and living cast light on the meaning: “true vine,” “true treasure,” “truth and life,” “tree of life,” “living bread,” “living waters,” “new and living way through the veil” (Hebrews 10:20); and “true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water” (Heb. 10:22). The Bible imagery of “true and living” has to do with the voice of warning (Jeremiah 10:10, and D&C 1:2), priesthood (true vine, John 15:1-5), living bread and living waters (sacrament and baptism, Holy Spirit inspiration, scripture; that is, ordinances and covenants and revelation), and finally, tree of life and “living way through the veil,” which both point to the temple and Christ’s role as the Melchizedek High Priest who enters the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement.⁴⁹ The themes that go with Biblical “true and living” imagery parallel the themes of D&C 1 point for point, verse for verse. Collectively all of these Bible images based on “true and/or living” center on the ongoing revelation and the distinctive priesthood ordinances and covenants, scriptures and temple worship that do, in actual fact and practice, distinguish the LDS from other faiths. But the designation is expressly non-exclusive and incomplete relative to truth, revelation, and human virtue. Riskas refers to “‘the only true Church’ on the face of the earth today,” but he has not considered the fact of his misquotation⁵⁰ and consequent inaccuracy of thought, and therefore he has not considered the implications of his own misreading as a “multiplier of negative effects.”⁵¹ My point is that the expectations that I get from a close reading of D&C 1 are far more tolerant and robust than the expectations that Riskas uses to test LDS truth claims. I can matter-of-factly expect many of the same things that he sees as decisive anomalies. My assumptions make a different set of predictions for Mormonism. Different predictions direct me to different methods, problem fields, and standards of solution.

That is my take on D&C 1:30, which, it happens, does not say "only true church" but something quite different.  I posted that reading many times here and elsewhere, and published in the Interpreter.

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/sophic-box-and-mantic-vista-a-review-of-deconstructing-mormonism/

And besides Bernard's apt scripture quotes on the non-exclusivity of faith, virtue, and inspiration, (there are many more), there is this from Joseph Smith:

Quote

But while one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great [Page 176]Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of man, causes “His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.” He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but, “according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil,” or whether these deeds were done in England, America, Spain, Turkey, or India. He will judge them, “not according to what they have not, but according to what they have,” those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will by judged by that law. We need not doubt the wisdom and intelligence of the Great Jehovah; He will award judgment or mercy to all nations according to their several deserts, their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family; and when the designs of God shall be made manifest, and the curtain of futurity be withdrawn, we shall all of us eventually have to confess that the Judge of all the earth has done right.

History of the Church 4:595

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[USU78]

14 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I agree with 1,2, and 3.  Although 4 is true, I believe He is eminently fair.  I read Nehor's comment to mean that God can be arbitrary and capricious.  If He is, please defend that position.  Saying He is a Sovereign, does not explain His fairness in the context of transforming lives in many religions if "True Church" authority is required for Salvation.

2 year olds think their parents' safety decisions are arbitrary and capricious. Doesn't make the parents wrong or even remotely irrational.

[Meerkat]

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

"Why does the Holy Ghost indiscriminately testify of Christ to people of many and no religions if 'true church' authority is required?"

Not sure that the Holy Spirit (Spiritus Sanctus) does anything "indiscriminately," least of all providing a witness to people far and wide without a reason -- even if we don't understand why.  Joseph Smith did repeatedly insist that others (outside the Church) could certainly be inspired.  Let truth come from where it may, he said.

This is a completely separate matter from the need for actual priesthood authority and an authorized Church on the Earth which can preach the real Gospel of Jesus Christ, build temples, restore all things, and conduct the ordinances in preparation for the last days before the coming of Christ the second and final time.

The LDS Church is the Kingdom of God on Earth, and its members are the Saints of the Last Days.

Your thoughts here are compelling, and that's part of what I love about the Gospel.  Another is the fruit of the Spirit that comes from living it.  Having authority seems to me like a foundational aspect of Salvation.  I believe that is another way of phrasing the Prophet's question "Which church should I join."  I'm trying to understand how members of the other churches, and those who attend no church, but believe in and follow many of Christ's teachings, deal with the critical issue of authority.

[pogi]

14 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I see the differences.  I have friends in many religions who have faith in Jesus Christ, whose lives have been changed for the better through their faith in Him.  Some acknowledge that the Holy Ghost has made the difference.  Others say they became converted by reading the Scriptures.  As a Mormon, I can discern the difference between the influence of the Holy Ghost that comes and goes, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion.  However, I know many Christians outside our Church who have been saved from their lives of sin due to their faith in Jesus Christ, following His teachings, and the still, small voice.  Some are so kind and good, if they don't one day dwell with God, the question is, why could I?  

While we claim the sole authority to perform saving ordinances, we don't claim sole access to Christ's life-altering grace and inspiration through obedience to the light we have each been given - be it Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, or Atheist. Which is ultimately the light by which we will be judged.   

I think your last question is well-expressed. If only more people would ask themselves that question, they might begin to comprehend the beauty in the teachings of the restored gospel.  A gospel where there is no hell for good people who happen to be non-Christian or atheists.  A gospel which teaches that all people are endowed with light from God, where equal opportunity to receive of the saving ordinances will be shared by all, whether in this life or the next.  I have no reason to doubt that genuinely good people and honest truth seekers of all faiths will embrace the light as it is revealed to them, in their own way and time.  

I don't personally believe that Mormons are any more intimate with God than any other seeker and observer of light.  If we are both following the same light, there is no reasons why we wouldn't end up in the same place.  Thanks to temple work, there is no reason to think that non-Mormons are less likely to be saved.  This realization should in no way diminish from our motivation and zeal for missionary work however.  It is only through the combined efforts of missionary work and temple work that perfect mercy, justice, equity and opportunity for all can be realized.  

[The Nehor]

Any virtue displayed by anyone who is not LDS is clearly false and is an illusion created by Satan to deceive the faithful. Take it from me. They are all depraved psychopaths who secretly want to rape and murder you and steal all your stuff before offering your soul to the infernal powers in exchange for demonic favors.

You have been warned.

Edited August 11, 2017 by The Nehor