stemelbow Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) Remember Elder Holland speaking off the cuff claiming there was double digit number of stakes being created each week "every week of our lives" (a link to commentary on it in 2016 when the claim was made)? Last year (2016) there were 100 stakes created, which was a high in recent years. Which means last year, an unusually high year, there were less than two stakes created, per week. I noticed today on LDS Church growth blogspot that we have 36 stakes created so far this year with 13 more scheduled to be created sometime this year (1 in August, at least). I had this impression earlier talking to someone in another thread. The message we often get is all is well in Zion. I wonder why that is. It feels even to the point of potentially misleading in some cases (whether Holland was misleading or grossly misinformed, I guess we wont' know) that we hear that all is well. Is all well? Edited August 10, 2017 by stemelbow Link to comment
Dexter Eli Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Elder Holland?!?!? Misleading?!??!!?!? How could you read his quote below and think he could ever be misleading? “With a rush of memory and guilt, regret and rage, he despised the very sight of them,” Elder Holland recounted. “But he was safe, because he kept all visitors at bay by employing two Doberman Pinschers who viciously charged the gate every moment that anyone came near.” The dogs startled the missionaries as they passed by and continued on, “our man on the porch laughing at the lovely little drama he had just witnessed, wishing only that the gate hadn’t restrained his two dogs.” Then, the two elders stopped, looked at each other, conversed a little, “likely said a silent prayer,” then turned around and approached the gate. “The Dobermans on cue charged the gate again, hit it, snarling, frothing, and then stopped in their tracks,” Elder Holland said. “They looked at the missionaries, dropped their heads, ambled back to the front steps and lay down.” Even if told this story, I highly doubt Elder Holland was told what the man felt and what he wished and how the dogs were subdued by the spirit. So, yeah, anything I hear from Elder Holland I assume to be at best, an exaggeration. Link to comment
Atheist Mormon Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Quote Remember the double digits stakes being created claim Whatever you are quoting here is not even drop in the bucket of what Faith (in general) claims & never delivers. Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 38 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Dogpile!! That dogpile looks a lot more fun than what's happening here. 4 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) The Last Day is going to be rough for those that judge off the cuff comments about how many meetings the person attends and nitpick them for deception. If it is true that we are judged by the standard we judge others by then they are going to fry. Edited August 11, 2017 by The Nehor 4 Link to comment
Dexter Eli Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: The Last a Day is going to be rough for those that judge off the cuff comments about how many meetings the person attends are nitpicked for deception. If it is true that we are judged by the standard we judge others by then they are going to fry. You're being awfully judgmental in your comment that people should not be judgmental. Who said anything about number of meetings he attends? Link to comment
Guest Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, stemelbow said: Remember Elder Holland speaking off the cuff claiming there was double digit number of stakes being created each week "every week of our lives" (a link to commentary on it in 2016 when the claim was made)? Last year (2016) there were 100 stakes created, which was a high in recent years. Which means last year, an unusually high year, there were less than two stakes created, per week. I noticed today on LDS Church growth blogspot that we have 36 stakes created so far this year with 13 more scheduled to be created sometime this year (1 in August, at least). I had this impression earlier talking to someone in another thread. The message we often get is all is well in Zion. I wonder why that is. It feels even to the point of potentially misleading in some cases (whether Holland was misleading or grossly misinformed, I guess we wont' know) that we hear that all is well. Is all well? My guess (with a topic that can be easily verified) a simple error, the word, "week" instead of "year" as no such thing has ever occurred. At least not to my knowledge in my 38 years. Unless he was saying "Stake", instead of "Ward". Either why just sounds like it is much a simple errror, not an attempt to allude. Edited August 11, 2017 by Bill "Papa" Lee 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Dexter Eli said: You're being awfully judgmental in your comment that people should not be judgmental. Who said anything about number of meetings he attends? That was the context in which Elder Holland made the comment. If I am being judgemental then so was Jesus in his comments about judging others so at least I am in good company. 1 Link to comment
Dexter Eli Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 16 minutes ago, The Nehor said: That was the context in which Elder Holland made the comment. If I am being judgemental then so was Jesus in his comments about judging others so at least I am in good company. The comment wasn't about how many meetings he attends. It was about how many stakes are created, and if that correlates to how many meetings he attends to form such stakes, all the more reason he should remember and be accurate. People who claim to speak for God should certainly be nitpicked. Otherwise, how many false prophets would just lead people astray? So when people say you are being judgmental, you respond by comparing yourself to Jesus? Wow. Interesting tactic. Link to comment
Thinking Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Rule #1: When a GA is wrong, don't nitpick. Rule #2: When a GA is correct, shout it from the rooftops. 2 Link to comment
Johnnie Cake Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, stemelbow said: Remember Elder Holland speaking off the cuff claiming there was double digit number of stakes being created each week "every week of our lives" (a link to commentary on it in 2016 when the claim was made)? Last year (2016) there were 100 stakes created, which was a high in recent years. Which means last year, an unusually high year, there were less than two stakes created, per week. I noticed today on LDS Church growth blogspot that we have 36 stakes created so far this year with 13 more scheduled to be created sometime this year (1 in August, at least). I had this impression earlier talking to someone in another thread. The message we often get is all is well in Zion. I wonder why that is. It feels even to the point of potentially misleading in some cases (whether Holland was misleading or grossly misinformed, I guess we wont' know) that we hear that all is well. Is all well? I'm guessing that Elder Holland meant "per Decade" Edited August 11, 2017 by Johnnie Cake Link to comment
carbon dioxide Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 5 hours ago, stemelbow said: I had this impression earlier talking to someone in another thread. The message we often get is all is well in Zion. I wonder why that is. It feels even to the point of potentially misleading in some cases (whether Holland was misleading or grossly misinformed, I guess we wont' know) that we hear that all is well. Is all well? All might not be all well in Zion but I don't think the health of Zion is based on how much the church grows. 3 Link to comment
Calm Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 37 minutes ago, Thinking said: Rule #1: When a GA is wrong, don't nitpick. Rule #2: When a GA is correct, shout it from the rooftops. That is at least nicer than the reverse. Link to comment
Calm Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: All might not be all well in Zion but I don't think the health of Zion is based on how much the church grows. No, it is much more based, imo, on how those of Zion or rather those who are claiming to aspire to Zion treat each other. 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Calm Posted August 11, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I'm guessing that Elder Holland meant "per Decade" Did you read the commentary in the link provided? "However, after reviewing the video it appears that he is referring to meetings to approve new stakes in the coming months." Having read that, I went back and reread the quotes. If I understand him correctly, Holland was saying each week in the organizing meeting they are discussing the new stakes to come. One week they were dealing with 12 stakes, the next week the number was three more added to the discussion or a total of 15 they were then anticipating. Or perhaps it was five more, but it came to 15 because the previous week they had finalized the creation of two of the twelve stakes. If no new stakes had been added to the list to discuss, then that week it would have been ten, for example, the next weeks less and less as stakes were finalized until zeroed out. Holland is saying, imo, that there is never less than ten stakes being discussed on the agenda list rather than saying each week there are at least ten new, unique stakes we make that week. They never get the chance to deal with less than ten stakes, but as some are finalized and removed from the discussion list, more are added, so every week the discussion involves at least ten stakes in the process of being organized. It makes sense in that they would be creating/organizing a stake over a number of weeks. It is not just one meeting saying "let's do it here with these boundaries and these officers" and then they never talk about it again. Nor does it makes sense they would have to talk about all the previous stakes and add ten or more to the list to discuss each week. That would be at least 40 stakes each meeting to discuss if it took a month to finalize a stake from beginning to end. Think of it as a juggler with at least ten balls in the air. Each pass he drops some out while more are tossed in, so it is never the same set of balls though individual ones stick around for awhile and the number is always over ten. Maybe someone who has been involved in the creation of a stake could report on how long the process took from their POV (and it would probably be longer since it would have to be discussed and approved to organize at the top before organization started at the more local level...which then would be reported back to the weekly meetings to get approval or rejection of that week's progress). The whole thing was an introduction to the impact that one person can have. Came across to me as saying even with all this growth, it is what the one does themselves to help others that gets the Lord's work done. Edited August 11, 2017 by Calm 7 Link to comment
rodheadlee Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Whoosh all the air just went out of that balloon. 3 Link to comment
Thinking Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 25 minutes ago, Calm said: Did you read the commentary in the link provided? "However, after reviewing the video it appears that he is referring to meetings to approve new stakes in the coming months." Having read that, I went back and reread the quotes. If I understand him correctly, Holland was saying each week in the organizing meeting they are discussing the new stakes to come. One week they were dealing with 12 stakes, the next week the number was three more added to the discussion or a total of 15 they were then anticipating. Or perhaps it was five more, but it came to 15 because the previous week they had finalized the creation of two of the twelve stakes. If no new stakes had been added to the list to discuss, then that week it would have been ten, for example, the next weeks less and less as stakes were finalized until zeroed out. Holland is saying, imo, that there is never less than ten stakes being discussed on the agenda list rather than saying each week there are at least ten new, unique stakes we make that week. They never get the chance to deal with less than ten stakes, but as some are finalized and removed from the discussion list, more are added, so every week the discussion involves at least ten stakes in the process of being organized. It makes sense in that they would be creating/organizing a stake over a number of weeks. It is not just one meeting saying "let's do it here with these boundaries and these officers" and then they never talk about it again. Nor does it makes sense they would have to talk about all the previous stakes and add ten or more to the list to discuss each week. That would be at least 40 stakes each meeting to discuss if it took a month to finalize a stake from beginning to end. Think of it as a juggler with at least ten balls in the air. Each pass he drops some out while more are tossed in, so it is never the same set of balls though individual ones stick around for awhile and the number is always over ten. Maybe someone who has been involved in the creation of a stake could report on how long the process took from their POV (and it would probably be longer since it would have to be discussed and approved to organize at the top before organization started at the more local level...which then would be reported back to the weekly meetings to get approval or rejection of that week's progress). I'm not sure how you interpret his comments in the way that you do. "A week ago Thursday we created 15 stakes. And we're doing that mas o menos every week - more or less. It might not be 15, but it's...the week before it was 12. Sometimes it's 8 or whatever, and it'll be a little uneven, but the point is we're talking double digit stakes every week - every week of our lives." 1 Link to comment
Dexter Eli Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, Thinking said: I'm not sure how you interpret his comments in the way that you do. "A week ago Thursday we created 15 stakes. And we're doing that mas o menos every week - more or less. It might not be 15, but it's...the week before it was 12. Sometimes it's 8 or whatever, and it'll be a little uneven, but the point is we're talking double digit stakes every week - every week of our lives." I agree. Holland should be more careful with his words, then no one would have to do mental gymnastics to apologize for him. Link to comment
The Nehor Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Dexter Eli said: The comment wasn't about how many meetings he attends. It was about how many stakes are created, and if that correlates to how many meetings he attends to form such stakes, all the more reason he should remember and be accurate. People who claim to speak for God should certainly be nitpicked. Otherwise, how many false prophets would just lead people astray? So when people say you are being judgmental, you respond by comparing yourself to Jesus? Wow. Interesting tactic. So now you are arguing that you can tell a false prophet from a true one from off the cuff comments instead of examining their preaching and counsel? If you have to get that persnickety to find fault maybe you are on the wrong track? I doubt Jesus would pass your test. I suppose it works well if you want evidence for a conclusion you have already reached. When people throw out ridiculous accusations against me I like to respond with equally ridiculous rebuttals in the hopes they will realize how silly they have been. Results have been mixed so far. 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 21 minutes ago, Dexter Eli said: I agree. Holland should be more careful with his words, then no one would have to do mental gymnastics to apologize for him. He makes a mistake and now the whole thing deserves an apology? Link to comment
Calm Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) I am not saying I am correct, but the guy was speaking without notes for most of it (a quote from President Kimball was the one note I recall), interrupting himself for jokes and asides, so I don't see a reason to assume his language is going to be precise all the time. To me, he has a picture in his mind and describes what he sees. He is using lots of passion, intensity...talking a mile a minute at times toget out what he sees. If he had said "are creating" rather than "created", my reading 'worked on creating 15 stakes' would be more obvious. I have seen a bit of what goes into creating a stake. Heard reported more. These once a week temple meetings are reported to deal with more than just creation of stakes. There is just no way they could go through all the paperwork and reports for 15 stakes in a one day meeting unless all they are doing is rubber stamping the process. The leaks of videos of GA meetings demonstrate to me that is highly unlikely. Instead, lots and lots of reports. If we assume he isn't creating his report what goes on in the meetings out of thin air (and given how fast he is saying stuff, I find that unlikely though he can obviously exaggerate given the way he tells the story of the Elders Quorum President), then it has to somewhat match what is known about such meetings. From what I have seen, they spend a lot of time getting reports even when they are just summaries..then they discuss them. Decisions involved would include hearing a report on numbers of members, activity levels, available Priesthood holders, buildings required and available, boundary lines, etc. They ask, in my understanding, for recommended officersfrom the locals...that's a minimum of two meetings there (one to determine the new stake and one to get the list reported and evaluations of those recommended). And it is not just one new stake that needs to be dealt with and adjusted in each case, but all the stakes from which it is pulled have to be ensured to be covered as officers will be split between the stakes. In one place I lived, it was reported discussions on whether to make a new stake took place several times at top levels over a few years before they went for it. So if it takes multiple meetings to just get the idea of a new stake launched, then logistically it is unrealistically to think they are doing 15 unique completed stake launchings every week. Makes sense therefore to look at an alternative reading. I think mine is logistically sound and is consistent if you take everything he said in that context. Otherwise they are either going from start to finish for the 15 stakes in one meeting or they are dealing with thinking about 15 stakes, the discussing boundaries of 15 stakes, okaying officers of 15 other stakes, finalizing 15 more stakes...or in other words to produce 15 new stakes each meeting, they would be processing probably at least 60 stakes each meeting. Even one new stake a week would require discussing four or five at some point in their process (ignoring any negative decisions) each week. However, dealing with a few decisions for 15 stakes each week over several or more weeks sounds a lot more manageable to me than dealing with dozens of decisions for even just one. It seems to me a minor leap given the way Mormons do meetings. Much more efficient at top level, but still not that simple...not when you are dealing with multiple countries with different legal issues, dozens of people, etc. Edited August 11, 2017 by Calm 3 Link to comment
Dexter Eli Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Makes a mistake? That is hilarious. Holland projects the church as being so perfect, and you can say with a straight face he just made a mistake? You make me laugh. In Holland's talk about the Doberman Pinschers he referred to the Holy Ghost inspiring about 10 different things that led to the Elder subduing the treacherous dogs with the spirit and finding his long lost brother. The Holy Ghost inspired that Elder's mission, inspired that Elder's area within the mission, inspired him to turn around after the dogs scared them off, etc., etc. Where was the Holy Ghost when Holland heard that story if it is SO involved in every little event? Where was the Holy Ghost when Holland repeated the story (and exaggerated it)? Where was the Holy Ghost when Holland said double "digit stakes a week, every week of our lives."? Holland has repeatedly said that the Holy Ghost is involved in every single decision made by the church and its leaders. He can't have it both ways. You can't have it both ways, either, Jesus, or Nehor, or The Nehor, or whatever you want to be called. Holland has continuously emphasized the Almighty's involvement in even what would seem like small matters within the church but he continually says things that aren't true (putting it lightly) and you claim he just made a mistake. The church demands accountability from its members, but we can't expect any from Holland? Give me a break. Link to comment
Calm Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 "Holland projects the church as being so perfect, and you can say with a straight face he just made a mistake" Did you watch the YSA meeting? Link to comment
The Nehor Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, Dexter Eli said: Makes a mistake? That is hilarious. Holland projects the church as being so perfect, and you can say with a straight face he just made a mistake? You make me laugh. In Holland's talk about the Doberman Pinschers he referred to the Holy Ghost inspiring about 10 different things that led to the Elder subduing the treacherous dogs with the spirit and finding his long lost brother. The Holy Ghost inspired that Elder's mission, inspired that Elder's area within the mission, inspired him to turn around after the dogs scared them off, etc., etc. Where was the Holy Ghost when Holland heard that story if it is SO involved in every little event? Where was the Holy Ghost when Holland repeated the story (and exaggerated it)? Where was the Holy Ghost when Holland said double "digit stakes a week, every week of our lives."? Holland has repeatedly said that the Holy Ghost is involved in every single decision made by the church and its leaders. He can't have it both ways. You can't have it both ways, either, Jesus, or Nehor, or The Nehor, or whatever you want to be called. Holland has continuously emphasized the Almighty's involvement in even what would seem like small matters within the church but he continually says things that aren't true (putting it lightly) and you claim he just made a mistake. The church demands accountability from its members, but we can't expect any from Holland? Give me a break. It may interest you to know that at a business meeting today I misspoke and mentioned a million dollars in a presentation when I should have said a hundred thousand. I assume that excommunication proceedings are imminent because as you said the church demands absolute accountability and a complete error free life from its members just like you do from Elder Holland. Well, it was a fun ride but I guess I have to go to hell now. Bye guys! While technically it is correct to call me Jesus because I took upon myself his name through covenant it will probably just lead to confusion if you use that name plus some might see it as irreverent. You can call me "exalted one" or "your Lordship" instead. Link to comment
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