Church Acquires Commercial Property in Texas

[Meerkat]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

If the goal of the church is to become a stronger corporation then your analysis is absolutely correct.  A lot of people criticize the church for having a very corporate attitude.  I personally don't care how the church spends its wealth.  But I do think about the struggling families that sacrifice so much to pay their tithing.  Unlike your analogy, tithing is not a one time gift to the church.  It is to be paid for as long as the person is a member.  It is more like getting rent every month, than a one time gift that needs to be maximized.  Your perspective is certainly a valid perspective.  But where does it end.  If the church used half of its tithing funds to build their investment portfolio, then they could generate even more  money.  And if they  use that money to buy more properties then they could generate even more money.  

One of the big problems that I am hearing about the church is that the church manuals have not been updated in a very long time.  The information in them is causing people to fall away from the church.  Stories like Marsh and Ryder being written in a way that is very misleading is making it uncomfortable for those members that know there is more to those stories than just a name spelled wrong.  So what does the church need more?  A bigger real estate empire or resources put into strengthening the faith of it's members.  Should the church be paying more attention to what it is teaching it's members?

I also think that when a family is desperately struggling each month to pay their electric bill see that church funds are going to purchase something like this building, it causes them to loose faith.  Why should they be asked to sacrifice so much so that the church can acquire more real estate.

Don't misinterpret my post.  I really don't think I have any say on how the church spends its wealth.  But I think there is more to the issue than just generating more income.

CB, you act like you have compassion for struggling families.  Why do you think they pay their tithing?  Would you take that away from them?  Do you think you would be doing them a favor?

Before I became a Christian, I had a testimony of tithing.  Maybe I will share that story with you some day.  Tithing was one thing that attracted me to and helped me gain a testimony of the Restored Gospel.  

When my wife and I were starting out, we were poor as a Church mouse. (Not literally.  That is a figure of speech.)  Because I had a testimony of tithing, we gladly paid it month after month, year after year through recessions, unemployment, raising our children.  When we lived off our food storage, grinding wheat for home made bread and cracked wheat cereal, we paid our tithing with joy.

God does not need the money.  We need the blessings, and they came and still do.  People with no faith may never understand why we pay our tithing.  But CB, we will line up and tell you sincerely and honestly, if a person wants to see a miracle in their life, pay tithing with faith.  The promise of Malachi 3:10 and 11 is true:

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.  And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts."

I have proved Him by tithing, and many other ways.  There is nothing you or anyone else could do to keep me from paying my tithing.  It's NOT about the money.  The Heavens continue to open. Our needs are met.  Our faith grows and grows.  And when we hear a compassionate sounding cynic speak against it because "poor people need the money," I just smile because they don't know what they are talking about.  Are we rich?  No.  Are we happy?  Yes.  Like I say, you can't take it away from me.

You say "Don't misinterpret my post."  Your post is very clear.  It is another jab at the faithful.  It is another criticism of the Lord's Church and it's representatives. We've had our critics since the very beginning.  Just so you know, from one who knows, all the blessings of the Gospel are here for you if you choose to live it with faith.  

Are there things we and the Church can do better?  Of course.  We live in a fallen world. There is probably a thing or two you could do better your self.  Would you agree?

Edited August 12, 2017 by Meerkat

[rockpond]

29 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Are there things we and the Church can do better? 

Are we allowed to discuss what those things might be without condemnation?  Just wondering.

[Meerkat]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

It's a very difficult question to face and I have no doubt the Brethren frequently face tough decisions and do their very best.

 Exactly! They have a job to do, as do I. It's not up to me to micromanage them. I'm sure, like any good investor, they diversify to minimize the risk. in my opinion, When I pay my tithing, I have done my part. The rest is up to them. They are accountable to the Lord for the work they do. As such, I believe as you apparently do, that they face tough decisions and do their very best.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Meerkat

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

 exactly! They have a job to do, as do I. It's not up to me to micromanage them. I'm sure, like any good investor, they diversify to minimize the risk. in my opinion, When I pay my tithing, I have done my part. The rest is up to them. They are accountable to the Lord for the work they do. As such, I believe as you apparently do, that they face tough decisions and do their very best.

Please fix where you quoted me above... you added "Exactly! Exactly!" to what I had written.

I agree with you that it is our responsibility to pay tithing regardless of what the Brethren choose to do with it.

I also agree that they face tough decisions and I believe they do their best.

They are accountable to the Lord.  They are also accountable to the church membership through the law of common consent.

[Meerkat]

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Please fix where you quoted me above... you added "Exactly! Exactly!" to what I had written.

I agree with you that it is our responsibility to pay tithing regardless of what the Brethren choose to do with it.

I also agree that they face tough decisions and I believe they do their best.

They are accountable to the Lord.  They are also accountable to the church membership through the law of common consent.

Sorry, Rock Pond I don't know how that happened. The smartphone isn't so smart sometimes, like its owner.

[USU78]

58 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Are we allowed to discuss what those things might be without condemnation?  Just wondering.

Are we allowed to criticize the critical? Just wondering.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Are we allowed to criticize the critical? Just wondering.

You'll notice that I used the word "discuss" not criticize.  And I asked if we could do it without condemnation.

But, yes, you can criticize anyone you want. 

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Are we allowed to criticize the critical? Just wondering.

Sure.  You do it often on here 

All kidding aside, I enjoy the way that rockpond leads or participates in a discussion and he's much less caustic than many on here, IMO.

[rockpond]

27 minutes ago, ALarson said:

All kidding aside, I enjoy the way that rockpond leads or participates in a discussion and he's much less caustic than many on here, IMO.

Thank you. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by rockpond

[thesometimesaint]

You are free to dessent any time you want. If I give money to you. You are under no obligation to answer to me for how you spend it. I get to see where the Church spends its money every Sunday. I'm old enough to remember when my Ward budget was open to descent. Lots of hard feelings when someone didn't like how and/or how much was spent.

Edited August 13, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[rockpond]

16 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

You are free to descent any time you want. If I give money to you. You are under no obligation to answer to me for how you spend it. I get to see where the Church spends its money every Sunday. I'm old enough to remember when my Ward budget was open to descent. Lots of hard feelings when someone didn't like how and/or how much was spent.

I don't want to derail the thread.  I've explained in other threads regarding the doctrinal obligation that I believe the Church has regarding consecrated funds. I'll leave it at that. 

[thesometimesaint]

OK, but I see no doctrinal obligation for the Church to answer to me for how they spend their money. If I really object then I'll vote with my feet. I trust our Church leaders with more than the few dollars I give in tithing. Even Jesus had an accountant.

[mnn727]

On 8/11/2017 at 3:33 PM, Calm said:

Not quite.  Low quality, dangerous products may benefit those who sell them, but likely those who make or buy them are not getting anything positive from them.  Think of the illegal drug market, which is commerce that benefits in the long run very few.

Commerce is essential, but high quality commerce with reasonable prices will benefit more people than exorbitant costs or low quality efforts.

If the banks only loan to already wealthy entities, which pay other wealthy entities for the goods and services they want and these wealthy entities only pay low wages to their employees, while the money gets passed around, most movement is between the high end.

Banks (in general, not a specific one as banks may need to specialize to be fully productive) that wisely and carefully spread investment from the big to the little guy, employers that pay employees and themselves a decent wage and don't try to maximize their own income by forcing others to sacrifice, making quality and/or reasonably priced products so that many can buy what they need and want and not have their money wasted by cheap production that breaks before giving back full value, that is the type of commerce that fully benefits all levels.

I work for a bank, there are laws mandating that we loan to everyone, not just the wealthy. and all banks are audited multiple times a year to check.

[mnn727]

9 hours ago, california boy said:

To some extent, what you are saying is true.  But that is not always how all wealth is spent. For example in this case where a building is already built.  The money for the construction and maintaining the building is already being generated.  Let's say a wealthy individual buys that building for 20% more than what it was originally built for.  The new owner then proceeds to raise the rent on the tenants of the building as soon as he is able to.  Were more jobs generated?  Nope.  Does a corporation grow? Nope.  Is more money loaned out? Nope.  Only the wealthy person benefits.  Not much trickling down of wealth going on.  The only thing that is trickling down is increased rent making it more difficult for the tenants to grow their businesses which stifles economic expansion.

"Sorry, but some people need to learn basic economics."

And is your hypothetical rich man stuffing his mattress with the rent money? or is he spending it, banking it or buying stock with it?

Again, Economics 101

[mnn727]

9 hours ago, california boy said:

 

One of the big problems that I am hearing about the church is that the church manuals have not been updated in a very long time.  The information in them is causing people to fall away from the church.

Whomever you are hearing that from is 100% wrong. GP manual was updated about 5 years ago, the Presidents of the Church manuals are all new and we have not even finished the first full cycle of them. 

I'm a member because of those manuals, who exactly is falling away and from what?

[california boy]

6 hours ago, Meerkat said:

CB, you act like you have compassion for struggling families.  Why do you think they pay their tithing?  Would you take that away from them?  Do you think you would be doing them a favor?

Before I became a Christian, I had a testimony of tithing.  Maybe I will share that story with you some day.  Tithing was one thing that attracted me to and helped me gain a testimony of the Restored Gospel.  

When my wife and I were starting out, we were poor as a Church mouse. (Not literally.  That is a figure of speech.)  Because I had a testimony of tithing, we gladly paid it month after month, year after year through recessions, unemployment, raising our children.  When we lived off our food storage, grinding wheat for home made bread and cracked wheat cereal, we paid our tithing with joy.

God does not need the money.  We need the blessings, and they came and still do.  People with no faith may never understand why we pay our tithing.  But CB, we will line up and tell you sincerely and honestly, if a person wants to see a miracle in their life, pay tithing with faith.  The promise of Malachi 3:10 and 11 is true:

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.  And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts."

I have proved Him by tithing, and many other ways.  There is nothing you or anyone else could do to keep me from paying my tithing.  It's NOT about the money.  The Heavens continue to open. Our needs are met.  Our faith grows and grows.  And when we hear a compassionate sounding cynic speak against it because "poor people need the money," I just smile because they don't know what they are talking about.  Are we rich?  No.  Are we happy?  Yes.  Like I say, you can't take it away from me.

You say "Don't misinterpret my post."  Your post is very clear.  It is another jab at the faithful.  It is another criticism of the Lord's Church and it's representatives. We've had our critics since the very beginning.  Just so you know, from one who knows, all the blessings of the Gospel are here for you if you choose to live it with faith.  

Are there things we and the Church can do better?  Of course.  We live in a fallen world. There is probably a thing or two you could do better your self.  Would you agree?

Sorry, but it is not another jab at the church.  I thought I asked some legitimate questions.  And like I said, I really have no say in where the church spends it's money.  We all have our own experiences in life.  I paid tithing for most of my life.  Glad to do so.  But I never got any blessings because I paid my tithing.  I haven't paid any since I left the church.  Haven't noticed one bit of difference.  So it is hard for me to buy into the whole pay your tithing and God will bless you thing.  That said, I am not telling anyone to not pay their tithing if they think they are blessed for doing so.  That doesn't mean that there is more to this issue than the church just investing their money wisely, at least for some.  Which was really the point of my post.  Hardly a jab at the church for bringing up the point that it is a bit more complicated than that one issue.

[california boy]

21 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

And is your hypothetical rich man stuffing his mattress with the rent money? or is he spending it, banking it or buying stock with it?

Again, Economics 101

Yet you weren't able to show where other people benefited were you.  The rich man could easily take that money made from the real estate investment and do it again and again.  It is not an uncommon financial move.  I know a guy that manages a wealthy families investment portfolio.  Virtually all the money was tied up in office buildings and apartment complexes.  None of which the family ever built.  Their money was not generating jobs or income for anyone but themselves.

[california boy]

20 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

Whomever you are hearing that from is 100% wrong. GP manual was updated about 5 years ago, the Presidents of the Church manuals are all new and we have not even finished the first full cycle of them. 

I'm a member because of those manuals, who exactly is falling away and from what?

It was just what I got from one of the threads here on this board where members were complaining about outdated manuals that were not telling the whole story and causing problems with some members.  I obviously have no idea if what they were telling was true.  I was just taking them on their word.  I do know that when I was teaching the young men, the lesson manuals repeated stories they had heard over and over again since primary.  

I obviously can not comment directly on your assertion.  Perhaps others could give their opinion.  And maybe the church really has noting better to do with their excess money than to build a real estate empire.

[Tacenda]

 

17 hours ago, Calm said:

The online donation to LDS Philanthropies humanitarian services donation page does not have the same disclaimer tithing receipts do.

https://ldsp-pay.ldschurch.org/donations/lds-church/humanitarian-services/humanitarian-aid-fund.html?cde2=796

If you are concerned, you should contact then and discuss your concerns before deciding and publicly stating they are likely to spend it for something else.

See my post to Robert. I've been told it's only a few dollars per member, I don't mind the church building up Zion, but there is a fourth mission statement now. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So, without even examining what the LDS authorities do with those specified funds, you assume that they will not use it as specified.  Thus, in your view, LDS authorities are dishonest and will do whatever they want with the funds, regardless of the intent of the giver.  Is that how you would disburse such funds?  Of course not.  So why do you automatically assume that the LDS authorities are less honest than you?

I'm not assuming nothing of the sort, I'm going by what is spent on humanitarian aid. I've been told it's a few dollars per member. 

[juliann]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm not assuming nothing of the sort, I'm going by what is spent on humanitarian aid. I've been told it's a few dollars per member. 

That is your measure of effectiveness and good? I get so sick of this. I'm betting you don't have a clue as to what the money is actually doing, how it is being spent or how it is being managed. And I'm dead certain that those that complain the most about what other people should do aren't living up to their own standards when it comes to giving.

How about giving us a run down of your charitable contributions and how many dollars you contribute per family member? Then tell us how many people are able to walk because of it. I have a sister on a humanitarian mission and I do know what is being accomplished. Shame on you!

[juliann]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

See my post to Robert. I've been told it's only a few dollars per member, I don't mind the church building up Zion, but there is a fourth mission statement now. 

 

When are you going on your humanitarian mission? How much time have you put in?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, mnn727 said:

I work for a bank, there are laws mandating that we loan to everyone, not just the wealthy. and all banks are audited multiple times a year to check.

Are you saying a bank can never turn down a loan?

There are also many more banks in the world than the US.  It is probably not the developed countries that need the more balanced banks.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

 

See my post to Robert. I've been told it's only a few dollars per member, I don't mind the church building up Zion, but there is a fourth mission statement now. 

Told by whom?

Edited August 13, 2017 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm not assuming nothing of the sort, I'm going by what is spent on humanitarian aid. I've been told it's a few dollars per member. 

Sorry, Tacenda, i though that you said that the Brethren ignored the wishes of the contributors.

As to the amounts contributed overall, LDS contribute far more to charity than any other religious group (except perhaps Seventh Day Adventists).  That applies to all groups, whether we take the amount given over a period of several years and divide by the number of members of record, or look at the totals given by each Church per capita.  The contributions made by LDS include large numbers of service missionaries (who do not proselyte) as well as large cash contributions to non-Mormons -- via Catholic Relief, and other organizations.  The anti-Mormon version falsely claims that Mormons do next to nothing, and try to make it appear that others do more.  Not so.  Christianity is not a zero sum game.