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How to be a tolerant parent?


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I am posting this to ask for insight and advice...

 

The reason I am not putting it in social hall is that I would like the advice of non and ex members as well as faithful LDS - and I think more of all stripes visit this forum.

Our Daughter just turned 18 last month.  On her birthday, she announced that she has been sneaking out of the house for the past several months to sleep with her boyfriend, and intends to move in with him as soon as they can.  Of course, this shocked and hurt us.  We are also worried because the relationship is not healthy.  Last year, we had to hospitalize our daughter due to the nature of that relationship (and she promised she would stop seeing him) and her drug and drinking with him.  

 

This whole time she has been lying to us, and I am very offended by that more than anything.  We helped her get a car and paid for therapy to get her up and running, and the whole time, she was just reverting to what she wanted.  We have tried to be understanding, we stopped making her attend church with us after the hospital as she made it clear she was not interested and we wanted to show her we were willing to let her make honest choices.  Apparently, she just doe snot get being honest as a principle...  

Well here we are a month later.  She has no money save to move out, so she is still at home.  She came home with a tattoo last night.  She is doing whatever she wants even though we asked her to be honest and obey our house rules if she chooses to live with us.  Her biological dad could take her in, and we always hesitated because of his bad influence, but that influence appears to have won out for now - so there is no harm in her living there now in our opinion.  

 

It is hard, because we are hurt by the lies, trust is gone, we don't want to be taken advantage of and want to be treated with respect.  But we also want our daughter to know we love her in spite of her choices, and don't want her to feel that we are cutting her out of our life, or kicking her out of our home unfairly.

So my questions for discussion on this post are:

How does a parent who HATES the choices their adult child are making show true love while not appearing to condone those choices?

Why are teens raised in the church so intent on stepping FAR away from the moral values taught there, rather that just settling for not attending church, if that is not their thing?

Should we put a time limit on her stay, or start charging rent?

Especially if you are not LDS and/or have been on the side my daughter is in now, what can we do as parents to be the most help?

 

TANNK YOU!

 

MP

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The Bible says "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."  (Proverbs 22:6)

Notice it does not say when they are teenagers they will not depart from it. We had a daughter in a similar situation who kept a lot of wrong things she was doing secret from us and she ended up getting pregnant. It was shocking and upsetting to us also ,but we let her know we still loved her and she kept the baby and we helped raise her in our home.  After she started another relationship and got pregnant again she began to realize that what she was taught in the church were important principles that she wanted for her children, so they could grow up without as many problems as she had. She eventually married her boy friend who was also Mormon, but not active at the time she met him, and a year later they were  sealed in the temple with their children. 
I guess the point is that we should never give up on our children, even when they are adults; they might just decide on their own to make a turn for the better later in life. 

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Hey, MP,

First off, I am sorry to hear of the difficulties you and your family are going through.  Circumstances like these, involving/confronting/challenging our most cherished notions of belief and family, are difficult and often painful for all concerned.

I am a 44-year-old former LDS man who left the church in my late 20’s due to my problems with church history, doctrine, an ongoing series of changes in perception of ‘Truth’ after years of misguided (albeit well-meaning) advice from my local church leaders leading to the collapse of my temple marriage, and ultimately, my inability to continue living a straight lifestyle.

While I don’t have personal experience as a teenage/young-adult son/daughter residing with my own devout LDS parents, I do have experience as a twenty-something son of devoutly-LDS parents (and family), and trying to navigate a new, non-LDS-centered relationship with my parents and siblings and their families.

What I LOVE about your post is that without abandoning or altering your personal beliefs, you are at least open to searching for answers and input from others on how best to proceed.  I commend and give you a lot of credit for doing so as you search, ponder, and no-doubt pray as to what paths are best for you, your wife, and your daughter.

I’m not sure there’s any universally-applicable answer on how to proceed in your situation… but I think there are a few values that I personally believe should always govern human relationships: mutual respect, love, compassion, empathy, and the principles found in the Golden Rule.  I think it’s important for you to set some ground rules for open, honest, and respectful dialogue on all sides as you discuss the circumstances and best path forward with your daughter.

Another piece of advice: as part of a larger discussion and without suggesting you’ll do whatever she wants, perhaps its’ a good idea to ask your daughter what options she can think of that she feels would be fair all around, given her knowledge of your views, expectations, hurt, and the understandable loss of trust you’re likely experiencing.

Other concerns that likely play into the situation:

  1. Do you have others living with you that play a part in your family dynamics?  How will your decisions going forward affect them—whether the decision is to allow your daughter to stay, or to part ways with your daughter?

     

  2. Have you approached her biological (and it sounds, non-LDS?) father about the possibility of having her move in with him?  Perhaps you should have a side conversation with him (without your daughter present) about your desire to find out how to best support your daughter moving forward….  As a divorcee who suffered through a highly acrimonious divorce myself, I realize attempting to cooperate with a former spouse may be far more easily said that done… but it sounds like circumstances warrant trying to put aside past conflict as much as possible in focusing on how the two of you can support your daughter without being taken advantage of now that she’s an adult.

     

  3. Is family therapy an option?  Not only financially, but from a willingness-factor for all parties concerned?  Or has therapy proven to be unsuccessful, given your daughters’ behaviors…?  If that’s the case, would a different therapist be helpful?  (perhaps considering someone who’s not affiliated with LDS Family Services, from the sounds of your daughter’s lack of personal progress with her current one).

     

  4. From my perspective, should you choose to allow her to stay (with whatever conditions there may be), asking her to pay rent now that she’s an adult is perfectly acceptable.

     

  5. I also believe it’s perfectly acceptable for home owners to set certain rules for anyone living with them (especially those that result in measurable damage).  That being said, I also think it’s hard (if not impossible) to police behaviors both inside and outside one’s home that don’t result in measurable/observable consequences…. Especially when it comes to hoping to control adult children’s choices about the law of chastity (either alone or with a partner).

     

  6. While I don’t (and likely never will) get a tattoo, that’s something that I believe is ultimately up to each adult to choose for themselves.  I understand how much it’s frowned upon within LDS society and belief… I’m not sure it’s a reason to part ways with a wayward child, but I understand that is also a choice that each parent must make.

When one of my husband’s daughters (then aged 21) told her LDS mother (with whom she was residing in another state at the time) that she is lesbian, her Mom left the house to go speak with her bishop, and came back and said our daughter had to move out within a couple of days.  She ended up moving in with my husband and I.  Of my husband’s three other adult children, none of them supported their Mom’s actions in kicking their sister out of her house, and it has caused tensions and stress on their Mom's relationship with all four of their kids (including those that remain active in the LDS church).  Their Mom is saddened that she hasn’t been able to maintain the same close relationship with her children that they continue to have with us, but I’m not sure she fully is able to process how her own behaviors have affected how the children feel about her.  They have expressed to us that once they saw how conditional their Mom’s acceptance of their own children was, it spoke volumes to them about what their Mother’s “love” meant, and has also affected their attitudes and beliefs towards the church.  Many of them question why they should feel any desire to unite themselves with or return to a church that they feel gives lip-service to family, but (again, in their eyes) seems to encourage forcing families apart over differences. 

In all honesty, from my perspective (which, again, is the perspective of a former-LDS gay man), the move for our daughter away from her Mom and into our home was healthy, because we had ongoing concerns about how the church would continue to negatively affect our lesbian daughter.  So, on the one hand, I’m glad she ‘got out.’  On the other, I do support our daughter’s relationship with her mother and, with the goal of preserving her relationship with her own daughter and all her other kids, I wished her mom had handled it all around with more understanding, tact, and compassion—as it sounds like you are hopeful of and searching for positive solutions.

I don’t have all the answers, and none of us here are likely to solve your situation perfectly… but with what I’ve read so far, you’re on the right track, and I trust that it sounds like you will be approaching the circumstances with the values I mentioned earlier… mutual respect, love, compassion, empathy, and the principles found in the Golden Rule.

I look forward to hearing with others say on both sides of the aisle, here, and trust many of us may share different facets to consider as you prayerfully move forward with the best solutions for you and your family.

All the best,

D

Edited by Daniel2
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2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

How does a parent who HATES the choices their adult child are making show true love while not appearing to condone those choices?

By telling them you love them.  Do wholesome activities together that show love and open communication.  Speak their love language. 

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Why are teens raised in the church so intent on stepping FAR away from the moral values taught there, rather that just settling for not attending church, if that is not their thing?

A lot of the times there is a rebellion quality of things- to go and do the exact opposite just to be obstinate.  A lot of the times its' because if they through away their Christ-centric moral compass then they have zero compass, as opposed to a moral-minded atheist.  

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Should we put a time limit on her stay, or start charging rent?

I am assuming that she is graduated high school, not attending college, and not holding a job?

She is an adult: treat her like an adult.  Adult's pay rent, car insurance, food, etc.  None of that comes out of your pocket anymore.  Do not endorse her bad behavior by paying for it (directly or indirectly).  If she does not abide by the conditions of her renters agreement at your house, then she can rent elsewhere.  You still love her and she's still invited to family game night (or whatever it is you do), but you're not endorsing bad behavior.

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Especially if you are not LDS and/or have been on the side my daughter is in now, what can we do as parents to be the most help?

As an obstinate young adult once myself: treat her as an adult.  She's not a child anymore: let her have the rights and responsibilities of an adult, and let her deal with the consequences of those decisions.  Don't try to rescue her like she's a child.  

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1 hour ago, mnn727 said:

My opinion: Tell your daughter you love her and no matter what she does she will always be your daughter and welcome at family activities, however If you (meaning she) want to indulge in adult activities (sex, tattoos, etc) then you indulge in all adult activities: Paying rent, purchasing your own: food, clothes, cars, insurance, etc. This involves getting a job if she doesn't have one. Give her a 60 day grace period but be firm, 60 days from now she has a job and starts paying the above or she moves out. STAND FIRM!

Actions have consequences.

Be prepared though - I got the same talk and I moved out. I had nothing to do with any kind of religion for 20 years. Been active now for 24 years (I'm 61 now) Parents are now long gone, but it was the best thing they did for me - forced me to become an adult. Did I make mistakes? sure, but I learned.

Thank you so much for that great insight!

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22 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

So my questions for discussion on this post are:

How does a parent who HATES the choices their adult child are making show true love while not appearing to condone those choices?

Why are teens raised in the church so intent on stepping FAR away from the moral values taught there, rather that just settling for not attending church, if that is not their thing?

Should we put a time limit on her stay, or start charging rent?

Especially if you are not LDS and/or have been on the side my daughter is in now, what can we do as parents to be the most help?

Gads, this is the tough situation, but it is not unique or novel.  It has been repeated often in today's world and I suspect if we looked back at history we would see that it is rather old process that some children go through as they transition to adulthood.

  1. Your hate or love of another's choices is irrelevant.  What I think is most important is that you have learned a path of happiness that demands certain behaviors.  Those who are interested in other paths may, and often do, have a more difficult time.  Some of us think we are happy when we have no rules - this is a child's choice because they do not yet see consequences.  Learning what is healthy for the body, mind, heart, and spirit are different and challenging and some of us will ignore the learning process for as long as possible.  Your daughter is in this phase.  A parent shows respect of self and love of others by being honest, direct and expecting adults to act like adults.  I don't see any reason not to sit down and discuss solutions with your family on understanding what love is versus what it means to obey the rules of a home.  If you don't want to obey the rules then the consequence is that you find another place to live.  If that is the choice made then a discussion on how to support her in her new life becomes the focus.  Not having rules and not respecting the rules only leads to chaos and very bad feelings.
  2. Teens in the Church are not intent on stepping far outside of the teachings of the gospel and the Church - some teens are and yours is one of them.  Let's not paint with too broad of a brush stroke - exaggerations seldom help.  The way to the bottom of a mountain is one step at a time - the way we let our children fall to the bottom is by allowing them to ignore the home's rules - which formalizes a disrespect of the path of happiness, of you and of your own beliefs.  "This is what we do here in our home - beyond that doorway is where you get to do anything you want"....and better yet you get to learn how to pay for it in the adult world.
  3. No, there are no time limits.  This is not an acrimonious conversation, it is not a disrespectful conversation - it is a conversation about how each member of the home can live in peace.  Don't delay having the conversation.  If you want to charge rent - then do so.  However, the payment of rent is for specific things - you need to identify what that is.  What are her responsibilities in the home - who washes her clothes, who buys and prepares her meals, does she clean the home, the bathroom, etc.  Also - saving the rent money and giving it back to her when she moves out to facilitate her new living arrangements might be something to think about - it is an option.  Further - she must be responsible for her own expenses: mobile phone, car, gas, etc.
  4. Lastly, get her butt down to the doctor or health clinic and get her on birth control.  If she is not already on birth control then she needs it yesterday.  Make sure she understands the definition of safe sex and the consequences of ignoring the common sense rules of adult relationships. 
Edited by Storm Rider
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5 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Why are teens raised in the church so intent on stepping FAR away from the moral values taught there, rather that just settling for not attending church, if that is not their thing?

I think because they generally have further to step than those raised in families who accept behavior that our culture considers unacceptable (drinking, partying, etc. that many parents consider normal adolescent behavior)

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18 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

I am posting this to ask for insight and advice...

 

The reason I am not putting it in social hall is that I would like the advice of non and ex members as well as faithful LDS - and I think more of all stripes visit this forum.

Our Daughter just turned 18 last month.  On her birthday, she announced that she has been sneaking out of the house for the past several months to sleep with her boyfriend, and intends to move in with him as soon as they can.  Of course, this shocked and hurt us.  We are also worried because the relationship is not healthy.  Last year, we had to hospitalize our daughter due to the nature of that relationship (and she promised she would stop seeing him) and her drug and drinking with him.  


is no harm in her living there now in our opinion.  

 

It is hard, because we are hurt by the lies, trust is gone, we don't want to be taken advantage of and want to be treated with respect.  But we also want our daughter to know we love her in spite of her choices, and don't want her to feel that we are cutting her out of our life, or kicking her out of our home unfairly.

So my questions for discussion on this post are:

How does a parent who HATES the choices their adult child are making show true love while not appearing to condone those choices?

Why are teens raised in the church so intent on stepping FAR away from the moral values taught there, rather that just settling for not attending church, if that is not their thing?

Should we put a time limit on her stay, or start charging rent?

Especially if you are not LDS and/or have been on the side my daughter is in now, what can we do as parents to be the most help?

 

TANNK YOU!

 

MP

I wish you weren't going through this .. . .but she is 18.  Frankly, you are done teaching and training her.  She is an adult and she needs to learn what it means to be an adult.

"This whole time she has been lying to us, and I am very offended by that more than anything."

Of course she has and the next line explains why:

"We helped her get a car and paid for therapy to get her up and running, and the whole time, she was just reverting to what she wanted.  We have tried to be understanding, we stopped making her attend church with us after the hospital as she made it clear she was not interested and we wanted to show her we were willing to let her make honest choices.  Apparently, she just doe snot get being honest as a principle..."

Of course she doesn't get being honest as a principle because being dishonest gets her what she wants-which is the ability to not be responsible for her own actions.  You 100% gave into to her desires . . .in the interest of being compassionate and loving and not wanting to destroy your relationship with her, your actions simply supported her in her current path.

Think about it this way, who at this point has more worry and guilt for her problems-you or her?  Obviously you.  And until she feels the absolute pain and destruction her choices have caused her, she will not change.

"Well here we are a month later.  She has no money save to move out, so she is still at home.  She came home with a tattoo last night.  She is doing whatever she wants even though we asked her to be honest and obey our house rules if she chooses to live with us."

This doesn't surprise me in the least bit.

"It is hard, because we are hurt by the lies, trust is gone, we don't want to be taken advantage of and want to be treated with respect."

This is actually a big part of the problem.  You "want to be treated with respect".  Look, with disobedient kids you don't "want to be treated" you "demand respect" and there is a big, big, big difference.  The first says to the child "honey, I wish you'd pick up your clothes, b/c I have guests coming over, okay????".  The other says, "Alice, you clothes will be picked up by the time the guests get here." And then when the aren't picked up, the hammer gets dropped.  One commands and demands respect, the other simply requests it. And when a parent requests or asks for respect, don't be surprised when the child says "eh, I'd rather not".

"But we also want our daughter to know we love her in spite of her choices, and don't want her to feel that we are cutting her out of our life, or kicking her out of our home unfairly."

Honestly, this is your big problem.  My guess is that throughout her life as a child under your roof you have generally felt this way. As in you want your child to know she is loved "no matter what". And in the process of showing that she is loved no matter what you've taken up her slack and refused to really drop the hammer on her to demonstrate a) some choices in life are unacceptable-you can make them but if you do pain is coming and b) you are not responsible for the choices she makes in her life-you will not shoulder the emotional, physical nor mental sufferings of her bad decisions.

I personally contend that the biggest way a parent can demonstrate love to a child is to help them understand prior to becoming an adult the "hard knocks of life" so that they don't royally screw up their life. If my son or daughter tells me they hate me or think it . . . .I don't care (actually I'd probably discipline them for being disrespectful if they said it, but I don't care if they think it).  My job aint' to be your friend, or your buddy, or your pal or to ensure that they know "that I love them despite their choices" (which goes without saying, I tell my kids I love them all the time, but I still drop the hammer-(metaphorically, it doesn't mean yelling or screaming) when they have unacceptable behavior).

My job is to teach, train and develop. And I will do everything possible to ensure that they are taught properly; i.e. you must accept responsibility for your own actions-it is your life, not mine.  If you make bad choices in life (drugs, alcohol, sex, etc.) bad consequences will follow-you will have to reap those benefits and I'm not going to shoulder it for you.  I'll teach you what good choices and bad choices are-you've got to decide.

At this point-not much you can do.  She's an adult-she'll learn from the hard knocks of life. Best thing you can do tell her you love her, and kick her out of the house. 

Don't provide financial support, love her, give counsel if she wants it but she's got to grow up and stop using you guys as a punching bag for her lack of responsibility.

It sucks, it does-but that's the life of hard knocks-don't learn it when you are young, you learn it when you are older-and the longer you delay it the harder it is to learn it. 

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16 hours ago, mnn727 said:

My opinion: Tell your daughter you love her and no matter what she does she will always be your daughter and welcome at family activities, however If you (meaning she) want to indulge in adult activities (sex, tattoos, etc) then you indulge in all adult activities: Paying rent, purchasing your own: food, clothes, cars, insurance, etc. This involves getting a job if she doesn't have one. Give her a 60 day grace period but be firm, 60 days from now she has a job and starts paying the above or she moves out. STAND FIRM!

Actions have consequences.

Be prepared though - I got the same talk and I moved out. I had nothing to do with any kind of religion for 20 years. Been active now for 24 years (I'm 61 now) Parents are now long gone, but it was the best thing they did for me - forced me to become an adult. Did I make mistakes? sure, but I learned.

Great advice . . .unfortunately in society the way kids are raised is completely jacked up and it's causing all sorts of societal problems.  You had kids who didn't have their act together 50 years ago, but by and large the majority of the parents would have done the same thing as your parents (i.e. it wasn't unusual)-they would have kicked them out or put them in the military.  It sucked for you, you had to learn the hard way, but in the end it was the best thing for you.  It took you a while, but eventually you saw the wisdom of it and are really grateful for it.  By being hard-nosed your parents demonstrated their absolute love for you.

Today's society is so mammy-pamby you have 26+ year old living in their parent's home just simply delaying adulthood and responsibility. And weak-knee'd parents who can't kick their kids out for fear their kids will feel their parents don't love them. You are 18, you are on your own-get a job, go to college, go into the military, etc. It's not my life and I'm not going to be responsible for it.  

I'll still pray to God every night for the kid to get their act together . . .but that's about all I can do.

 

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I don't exactly know what I'd do or how I'd do it, if in your situation.  But, the thought that comforts me is sticking to your guns, living the way you deem best, can bring a longer term effect that is noticed by children as they age and mature.  It seems to me many kids go through difficulties in their late teen early 20 years.  Whether they come back to Church or not is one thing, but typically they come around to some extent.  They learn drugs isn't helping anyone.  They learn jerkiness and selfishness benefits them nothing.  They learn those who had always been there for them and loved them are still there hoping and waiting. 

I mean honestly I don't know what I'd say or how I'd approach this stuff with her.  I've always prized openness with my kids.  When I learn they are lying, it hurts, no doubt.  But it's going to happen.  You just have to hold on.  I don't mean to minimize the situation you have.  It sounds tough.  I doubt there's an easy fix.  It sounds like years of heart-ache ahead to me.  hopefully it's all pretty temporary and she comes around quickly. 

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My parents tried the tough love thing, didn't help with some of my siblings. I don't have teenagers yet - I wonder if anyone really has a good answer for this kind of thing.

The only thing you can control at the end of the day is what you choose. I would say keep those lines of communication open.

Edited by Gray
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I agree with Gray, every situation is unique, and every child is. The communication is important advice, make sure to keep that going. I like the stick one too, the objective lesson may appear a little like a church lesson but if pulled off well, it could work. And the emphasis on treating your child like an adult, I forget to do this. 

I have no business giving advice really, so all I have is empathy, because I've gone through (with other children) and am going through, some things with my 20 year old son who recently returned home. 

I wish you well Maestrophil, and remember..some days are going to be absolutely horrible, but so nice that we can wake up and start anew. 

 

 

 

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A lot of wonderful responses here.  I could not offer up much more.  Just wanted to add my support.  Wishing M much success and it speaks volumes that you care and trying to understand.  Also, may I thank you for wanted some help from all corners of the world here.  As a non mormon. I am not always asked for any input.

I had some problems with my daughter..but with love and support with firm goals...I have set her on her way.  Just know that it is after all you can do...

Best..Jeanne

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Lastly, get her butt down to the doctor or health clinic and get her on birth control.  If she is not already on birth control then she needs it yesterday.  Make sure she understands the definition of safe sex and the consequences of ignoring the common sense rules of adult relationships. 

This for sure!!

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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

The tone of this post is completely inappropriate to direct at someone who is obviously hurting and seeking answers. If this is your example of 'tough love' then I seriously advise Maestrophil to ignore it.

Tough Love is correct, its what most of the people here posting are saying.

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18 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

This for sure!!

This one is a really hard one..to have to admit that your child is sexually active, but good advice and one that I need to openly discuss with my single children, but have a tough time doing. Might I add that she shouldn't be having sex, or anyone shouldn't that's not married, have sex with someone without a condom.

Oh, life is tough sometimes, why can't they all stay young? ;)

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