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My (Ex) Stake President is a Woman


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31 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Evidently being transgender = apostasy now.  A new Mormon stories podcast has just been release. The interview is with a former 20 year church architect who oversaw temple construction and design. She also severed as a bishop and stake president in Tooele.

I wouldn't assume we know the full story - particularly the views of those who excommunicated him. As someone else noted, he appear to want to remain married to his wife which seems pretty problematic. Kind of like a person who was a member of the Allred polygamist group deciding to come back to the church but wanting to remain married to all his wives. It just doesn't work that way.

So far as I know the Church doesn't have a formal transgender policy. Perhaps this will prompt one. But it's not exactly clear what he expected to do as a woman.

59 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

1- The individual gets reassignment surgery for kicks or to rebel

2- The individual experiences gender dysphoria as a mental illness

3- The individual experiences gender dysphoria because they correctly recognize that their biological gender doesn't match their spiritual gender

I'm really sympathetic to the points you raise. I think those who disparage the very thought of transgender as impossible to be woefully ignorant. That said I don't think the above come close to exhausting the possibilities, particularly given the place transgenderism has on the left the past few years. It's quite possible to think you're transgendered yet be mistaken. It's not hard to find people who feel like they were socially pressured into such things by therapists or even loved one. I remember one interview with someone who actually had the surgery and came to deeply regret it. This is particularly the case as parents often pressure or teach children they think might be transgendered to express their gender of choice. While this might be deeply beneficial to someone who is deeply transgendered it could be very destructive to someone confused. So I think you really need to put a place for people who are mistaken. That might blur in with mental illness depending upon how broadly you define that.

Which takes one to the next point. I think we have a tendency to over pathologies mental difficulties. Now addiction far too quickly gets treated as mental illness as are many other things. While we can all think of things like highly autistic people or people unable to control themselves due to schizophrenia or bipolar disorder most people don't suffer conditions that extreme. Depression being a great example of a term that covers a pretty wide variety of states. I'd be far more sympathetic to the mental illness tag had we a biological understanding of what was going on. But we don't remotely have that. What we instead have are a loose collection of "symptoms" that could have radically different causes - not all of which would be helped by practicing life as a person of the opposite gender. Indeed that might in some cases make things worse. What I fear is that in our eagerness for the very important virtue of tolerance we make things worse overall. That's quite possible even as we make life better for some.

To raise the obvious question - is there a way to biologically determine if someones gender identity is correct? From an LDS perspective is there a way to determine if there's a way to know spiritual gender? Clearly there isn't. So what do we do? I understand those who want an "anything goes" attitude, but I'm not sure they're thinking through the implications of that for things like marriage, priesthood, sealing or so forth.

Certainly for someone deeply mentally ill it's pointless to administer a church court unless there are very compelling reasons. But it seems that's not the case here. So let me raise the obvious questions. Who are the kids sealed to? Who is his wife sealed to?

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Rock_n_Roll:

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Wait…”She remains in her 34 year committed marriage to her wife”.  Doesn’t that put her in a SSM, which is considered apostasy and automatic excommunication? (as per the policy). 

Good point. :) 

Clark Goble:

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I wouldn't assume we know the full story - particularly the views of those who excommunicated him. As someone else noted, he appear to want to remain married to his wife which seems pretty problematic. Kind of like a person who was a member of the Allred polygamist group deciding to come back to the church but wanting to remain married to all his wives. It just doesn't work that way.

Yep.

Edited by Kenngo1969
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27 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I don't think Elder Packer was saying every trial we face was custom for us, although I'm not sure what talk you're referring to. (I searched but I couldn't find one making quite that point) Certainly we came to experience trials and I suspect many of the trials we experience were known in a general form before we arrived. But I don't think Elder Packer accepted such micromanaging so as to eliminate free will.

 

This is from a BYU talk from Richard Cracroft

“One evening last week, while attending a local wedding reception, my wife, Janice, and I exchanged greetings with Elder and Sister Neal A. Maxwell. On being apprised that I would be addressing you today, he asked after the topic. To my statement that I would be talking to you about the reality and presence of the Spirit in our lives, he responded instantly, and as only Elder Maxwell can, with, “The Lord does a good job of micromanagement through the Holy Spirit, doesn’t he!”

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/richard-h-cracroft_well-sing-well-shout-mantic-celebration-holy-spirit/

 

here is the talk from Pres. Packer, 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1980/10/the-choice?lang=eng

I may be remembering it wrong or interpreting him wrongly, I don't know but here is another talk from Elder Maxwell about "customized challenges"

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1990/04/endure-it-well?lang=eng

I am trying like everyone else to make some sense of life and know what is true and what isn't, I hope I never come across as combative to anybody!

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1 hour ago, Duncan said:

so who did and why?

The Fall.  The same condition that created all our incorrect feelings.

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12 minutes ago, Duncan said:

... I am trying like everyone else to make some sense of life and know what is true and what isn't, I hope I never come across as combative to anybody!

You crazy, combative Canuck!  Quit fomentin' contention on my thread whydon'tcha?! ;):D 

P.S.: I haven't had a chance to look at any of your links.  I would be loathe to take issue with most anything any of the Brethren say.  Do we face tailored challenges in this life?  Yes.  Do we face hap crappening?  Man's inhumanity to man?  Law of the harvest?  Yep.  But I think we need to be careful appealing to mortal wisdom and perspectives (or, for that matter, we need to be careful attempting to divine the inscrutable mind of God) in an attempt to put any particular challenge into any particular category: I doubt we'll have those answers before we go the the PPI with Heavenly Father on the other side. :) 

Edited by Kenngo1969
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1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

You make a good point. This post isn't and shouldn't be about USU, but I do hope that the rudeness and vitriol that some people have for individuals like this SP can be recognized and eschewed. The rudeness exists and I hope we can see it for what it is: ugliness.

Suggesting a mentally ill person get assistance is rudeness.

Got it.

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9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The Fall.  The same condition that created all our incorrect feelings.

and we get back to God before the Fall, that didn't happen by happen chance, unless I was out that day in seminary or something!

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3 hours ago, Duncan said:

The Church sees gender as black and white but we are noticing there are more colours in life's crayon box that God seems to have created or allowed, who knows. As far as I know only one General Authority, Elder Hafen, has taught that non heterosexual people will be fixed in the next life, which makes you wonder why they are like this in this life-what purpose does it serve and to what purpose does excommunicating them for it has? I don't know what God expects from people who have those feelings. I think it's arrogant for me to tell someone, "you don't actually have those feelings" like I know what they are experiencing? If they feel the way they do then that's they way they do.

See the part I bolded above.

Your understanding is not accurate.

On the "Newsroom" section of LDS.org (intended as a resource for journalists to ascertain the Church's position on this and that) there is a transcript of a Q and A with Elder Lance B. Wickman, then a General Authority Seventy, and Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve. This is on the website perpetually and has been for a number of years now.

Here's a relevant excerpt:

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ELDER WICKMAN: One question that might be asked by somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is, “Is this something I’m stuck with forever? What bearing does this have on eternal life? If I can somehow make it through this life, when I appear on the other side, what will I be like?”

Gratefully, the answer is that same-gender attraction did not exist in the pre-earth life and neither will it exist in the next life. It is a circumstance that for whatever reason or reasons seems to apply right now in mortality, in this nano-second of our eternal existence.

The good news for somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is this: 1) It is that ‘I’m not stuck with it forever.’ It’s just now. Admittedly, for each one of us, it’s hard to look beyond the ‘now’ sometimes. But nonetheless, if you see mortality as now, it’s only during this season. 2) If I can keep myself worthy here, if I can be true to gospel commandments, if I can keep covenants that I have made, the blessings of exaltation and eternal life that Heavenly Father holds out to all of His children apply to me. Every blessing — including eternal marriage — is and will be mine in due course.

ELDER OAKS: Let me just add a thought to that. There is no fullness of joy in the next life without a family unit, including a husband, a wife, and posterity. Further, men are that they might have joy. In the eternal perspective, same-gender activity will only bring sorrow and grief and the loss of eternal opportunities.

 

(Emphasis mine)

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2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

See the part I bolded above.

Your understanding is not accurate.

On the "Newsroom" section of LDS.org (intended as a resource for journalists to ascertain the Church's position on this and that) there is a transcript of a Q and A with Elder Lance B. Wickman, then a General Authority Seventy, and Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve. This is on the website perpetually and has been for a number of years now.

Here's a relevant excerpt:

(Emphasis mine)

Thank you for posting this.  I couldn't remember the source.

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2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

See the part I bolded above.

Your understanding is not accurate.

On the "Newsroom" section of LDS.org (intended as a resource for journalists to ascertain the Church's position on this and that) there is a transcript of a Q and A with Elder Lance B. Wickman, then a General Authority Seventy, and Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve. This is on the website perpetually and has been for a number of years now.

Here's a relevant excerpt:

(Emphasis mine)

That's why put the "as far as I know" which you bolded i'll have you know. I know about this article but I didn't recall it when posting. They even imply that homosexuality and other sexualities won't exist in the next life, which also implies it'll be fixed and they didn't know why it exists here  "It is a circumstance that for whatever reason or reasons seems to apply right now in mortality, in this nano-second of our eternal existence"

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44 minutes ago, Duncan said:

That's why put the "as far as I know" which you bolded i'll have you know. I know about this article but I didn't recall it when posting. They even imply that homosexuality and other sexualities won't exist in the next life, which also implies it'll be fixed and they didn't know why it exists here  "It is a circumstance that for whatever reason or reasons seems to apply right now in mortality, in this nano-second of our eternal existence"

Of course they don't know why homosexuality exists here. No one said they do.

By the way, I've posted this link a number of times over the years. It ought to be regarded as good news by anyone beset with same-sex attraction who doesn't want it and wants the promised blessings of exaltation and eternal increase for all who remain faithful.

You say Elder Hafen taught the same thing. I'd love to have a reference on that, if you can cite one.

Edited to add:

Never mind. I found it.

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If you are faithful, on resurrection morning—and maybe even before then—you will rise with normal attractions for the opposite sex.  Some of you may wonder if that doctrine is too good to be true. But Elder Dallin H. Oaks has said it MUST be true, because “there is no fullness of joy in the next life without a family unit, including a husband and wife, and posterity.” And “men (and women) are that they might have joy.”[v]

 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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41 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Thank you for posting this.  I couldn't remember the source.

I keep it at the ready, because it seems I have to cite it again and again. There seems to be a fairly widespread misconception that homosexuality will persist in the hereafter. To comprehend the majesty of the resurrection is to know that all such maladies of mortality will be done away.

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22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Of course they don't know why homosexuality exists here. No one said they do.

By the way, I've posted this link a number of times over the years. It ought to be regarded as good news by anyone beset with same-sex attraction who doesn't want it and wants the promised blessings of exaltation and eternal increase for all who remain faithful.

You say Elder Hafen taught the same thing. I'd love to have a reference on that, if you can cite one.

ugh, that means I have to down my 3$ cupcake-hope you're happy:P

"If you are faithful, on resurrection morning—and maybe even before then—you will rise with normal attractions for the opposite sex."

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/elder-bruce-c-hafen-speaks-on-same-sex-attraction

I LOVE Elder Hafen, I even spoke at a stake conference when he visited here. He did say that things will be corrected before the resurrection, which means to me that the next life things will get sorted out but before the resurrection and judgement. I just don't want to be the reason someone distances themselves from God, Church or add to their burden or anyone's actually.

Edited by Duncan
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6 hours ago, USU78 said:

The well need no physician, and I pray this sick soul gets the help he desperately needs. His going public in this manner broadcasts that he prolly won't, alas.

Sick soul.  How is that you know about sick souls?  Ugh.

Edited by Jeanne
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May I venture to say that I see a hole in the logic. Elder Oaks speaks of a fullness of joy in the hereafter coming through marriage and family etc. I agree, but we are also told that such fullness only exists for those in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. The rest of humanity will be angels who minister to others. I have yet to see scripture which says marriage and families and children also are available to members of the telestial or terrestrial  or even the lower 2 levels of the celestial. Will gender become a moot point for most? Will the serial monogamist or even the philanderer get fixed ?

This is just one of the reasons I hope for progressing within a kingdom, and also hope for progression between kingdoms and that I hold to the notion( apostate though it might be ) ,that ' mulligans ' may be necessary to our progress.

Edited by strappinglad
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55 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

May I venture to say that I see a hole in the logic. Elder Oaks speaks of a fullness of joy in the hereafter coming through marriage and family etc. I agree, but we are also told that such fullness only exists for those in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. The rest of humanity will be angels who minister to others. I have yet to see scripture which says marriage and families and children also are available to members of the telestial or terrestrial  or even the lower 2 levels of the celestial. Will gender become a moot point for most? Will the serial monogamist or even the philanderer get fixed ?

This is just one of the reasons I hope for progressing within a kingdom, and also hope for progression between kingdoms and that I hold to the notion( apostate though it might be ) ,that ' mulligans ' may be necessary to our progress.

Although it has not yet been revealed, I'm fairly confident we will one day learn that gender will play a significant role in the lower kingdoms of glory. I have every logical reason to expect that men and women will still be attracted to each other in the lower kingdoms and that there will still be a strong desire to bond in some way. It's just that while the relationships between men and women in the lower kingdoms will still be meaningful, those relationships will be less exalted than the eternal marriages in the celestial kingdom. If I am wrong, then, yes, there will almost certainly be progression between kingdoms so that gender identity will still have eternal significance for each son and daughter of God.

Have you ever wondered why the Savior and other celestial beings descend into the terrestrial kingdom and teach the inhabitants who dwell there about greater things pertaining to the kingdom than they already know? At any rate, several early leaders believed it was possible.

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3 hours ago, Duncan said:

This is from a BYU talk from Richard Cracroft  “The Lord does a good job of micromanagement through the Holy Spirit, doesn’t he!”

That's not really the same thing. I certainly don't mind the Holy Ghost having an occasional micromanging position - either to prompt us or to prompt others to help us. But that seems quite different from our particular trials being given in the particulars.

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Yeah that was one of the ones of his I'd looked up. But it really seems again quite different.

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I may be remembering it wrong or interpreting him wrongly, I don't know but here is another talk from Elder Maxwell about "customized challenges"

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1990/04/endure-it-well?lang=eng

That seems different too.

What I'm worried about is unfortunately a common belief but I've never heard a GA preach it and several preach against it. The idea is that every trial you face in the particulars was customized and prepared before you were born. It's not quite predestination but is close. In philosophy it requires what's called middle knowledge - that is the idea God knows every possibility and actualizes the one that is what he wants. The idea is that for any trial you are facing God created it just for you. I heard it a lot on my mission but honestly I think it a heretical idea. We may face some trials God gives us a blessing. But we also face trials we might not need for our progression and trials caused by other people's free will.

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5 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

That's not really the same thing. I certainly don't mind the Holy Ghost having an occasional micromanging position - either to prompt us or to prompt others to help us. But that seems quite different from our particular trials being given in the particulars.

Yeah that was one of the ones of his I'd looked up. But it really seems again quite different.

That seems different too.

What I'm worried about is unfortunately a common belief but I've never heard a GA preach it and several preach against it. The idea is that every trial you face in the particulars was customized and prepared before you were born. It's not quite predestination but is close. In philosophy it requires what's called middle knowledge - that is the idea God knows every possibility and actualizes the one that is what he wants. The idea is that for any trial you are facing God created it just for you. I heard it a lot on my mission but honestly I think it a heretical idea. We may face some trials God gives us a blessing. But we also face trials we might not need for our progression and trials caused by other people's free will.

I think it was Elder Neal A. Maxwell, who said essentially there are 3 sources of trials, 1) God, 2) That's how life is (weather, taxes, others decisions) and 3) our own mistakes-if you don't pay your credit card you'll be getting phone calls!

how would you interpret Elder Maxwell's phrase "customized challenges"? I dunno, I guess though when things go good it's a blessing when it doesn't it's trial of some sort, but all of that opens up host of questions and why does this or that happen why is life so unfair, where is God in all of this?

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17 minutes ago, Duncan said:

how would you interpret Elder Maxwell's phrase "customized challenges"? I dunno, I guess though when things go good it's a blessing when it doesn't it's trial of some sort, but all of that opens up host of questions and why does this or that happen why is life so unfair, where is God in all of this?

I think we get some, but I'm not sure we can tell which.

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26 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I think it was Elder Neal A. Maxwell, who said essentially there are 3 sources of trials, 1) God, 2) That's how life is (weather, taxes, others decisions) and 3) our own mistakes-if you don't pay your credit card you'll be getting phone calls!

how would you interpret Elder Maxwell's phrase "customized challenges"? I dunno, I guess though when things go good it's a blessing when it doesn't it's trial of some sort, but all of that opens up host of questions and why does this or that happen why is life so unfair, where is God in all of this?

Life is often unfair (it isn't always unfair) because in irder for things to exist there must be diametric opposition in all things. Fairness couldn't exist unless it's contrasted against its active antithesis, unfairness. God cannot prevent all unfairness from taking place, even the most extreme forms of unfairness, without upsetting the delicate balance that allows all things to exist. The Book of Mormon says that if God tried to tamper with the eternal principle of diametric opposition in all things, God would cease to be God and all things would vanish away.

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15 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Life is often unfair (it isn't always unfair) because in irder for things to exist there must be diametric opposition in all things. Fairness couldn't exist unless it's contrasted against its active antithesis, unfairness. God cannot prevent all unfairness from taking place, even the most extreme forms of unfairness, without upsetting the delicate balance that allows all things to exist. The Book of Mormon says that if God tried to tamper with the eternal principle of diametric opposition in all things, God would cease to be God and all things would vanish away.

So how does God get involved in our life so that "all things denote there is a God" without taking away anyone's agency?

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