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BYU-I Teach let go


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2 hours ago, Duncan said:

I had a friend who sold insurance during the day and made pizzas by night, he made more money doing the pizza thing! hahaha! Does smoking weed or the anti Mormon stuff impair your ability to do your job? do what you gotta do man!!! I guess if it negatively impacts your job then it is not good

I thought you knew what I do for a living with all this talk about doing lunch during temple dedications and such.

Apparently I was wrong in my assumption.

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11 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Is it a good idea to base a job at a Church-owned school, granted, on whether a professor agrees with policy on her personal facebook entries?   Why does her personal view expressed on facebook require her to lose her job? 

I love you stem but sometimes you are hard to take seriously.

Let's say I go on FB right now and post about how I disagree with the CEO of my company on X, Y, and Z.  I would rightfully be fired. I get paid to make the company successful. If my public actions run counter to the stated mission and goals of the firm, I am hurting the company.  Why would any rational person pay someone who openly opposes their policies and goals?  That's absurd.

 You have to get this, brother.  You aren't dense.  You just ask these silly questions to get peopled riled up. And then when you are called on it, you play "who me!?"  LOL.  Basically your OP argues that the Anti Defamation League would be in the wrong to fire an employee who posts neo-Nazi memes on FB.

BEST. TROLL. EVER.

Edited by 6EQUJ5
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8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I thought you knew what I do for a living with all this talk about doing lunch during temple dedications and such.

Apparently I was wrong in my assumption.

I know what you do!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been known to put up your articles on FB a time or two. I was saying that not specific to anyone's job. Smoking weed would violate the WOW and i'm sure they would work with you on that

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10 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Your example does not match up with what we're talking about.  She advocates for the Church but disagrees with a particular principle. It'd be like an airline exec getting canned because he expresses on facebook that he wished the airline was better at scheduling flights. 

OF COURSE HE WOULD BE FIRED!  Are you serious?

An executive publicly criticizing internal company operations is 1) a sign that the exec is very foolish and 2) a fireable offense.  There is no way you don't get this.

When you work for someone this stuff needs to stay in the family and you need to work it out internally.      

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10 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I do and disagree.  She can teach just as ably no matter her view.  As she said, she doesn't discuss it in class. 

Hey stem -- do you think an white supremacist  should be allowed to teach at Brandeis? Even if they don't discuss their racial views when on campus?  A math prof, let's say.

Edited by 6EQUJ5
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2 hours ago, Duncan said:

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? oh man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that's it , we're doing KFC for the Temple dedication!!! I would fend off any all food intruders if I had to walk home or whatever if I had a bucket of Kentucky's finest! 

What's this? I thought you had promised me lunch (or was it dinner?) at that fancy-shmancy power company restaurant you love so much. 

I can get KFC here at home any time I want it. In fact, Col. Sanders and Pete Harmon opened the world's first Kentucky Fried Chicken franchise here in Salt Lake City. You can still go there and see the sign memorializing it. 

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8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I know what you do!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been known to put up your articles on FB a time or two. I was saying that not specific to anyone's job. Smoking weed would violate the WOW and i'm sure they would work with you on that

It's specific to mine. You can't brazenly violate the commandments, even on your own time, and do what I do. I'm amazed I have to explain this to you. 

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1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What's this? I thought you had promised me lunch (or was it dinner?) at that fancy-shmancy power company restaurant you love so much. 

I can get KFC here at home any time I want it. In fact, Col. Sanders and Pete Harmon opened the world's first Kentucky Fried Chicken franchise here in Salt Lake City. You can still go there and see the sign memorializing it. 

Lunch is still on! I hold no ill will towards anybody! It's the Hydro Building! I've heard that about SLC!

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1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It's specific to mine. You can't brazenly violate the commandments, even on your own time, and do what I do. I'm amazed I have to explain this to you. 

it's probably because you eat all that KFC:lol:

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5 hours ago, Gray said:

Great point. The adjunct thing is terrible. Adjuncts get paid less than public school teachers, with no benefits. I'm not sure how colleges expect to have anyone to continue to teach their courses in the next generation, when more and more classes are taught by people with advanced degrees who are earning not much more than minimum wage. Why would anyone get a PhD with the idea of teaching at a university under current conditions?

 

But I digress.

I agree that's a bad state of affairs for the adjunct, and possibly for the institution, BUT... what is the intent of this status?  To see if they can get classes taught with as little expense as possible, or to have a way to get a better idea if the person is a good fit for the institution without having to make too early a commitment?  Not my field of knowledge, so I don't know.

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15 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I agree that's a bad state of affairs for the adjunct, and possibly for the institution, BUT... what is the intent of this status?  To see if they can get classes taught with as little expense as possible, or to have a way to get a better idea if the person is a good fit for the institution without having to make too early a commitment?  Not my field of knowledge, so I don't know.

She didn't have a masters or PH.D. So unlikely they were trying to see if a good fit.  She had apparently been a TA and then had an internship, so they already knew what kind of teacher she was.

My opinion based on years as an observer of hiring practices is that for the university in general it is to get cheaper teachers or to be able to increase the number of classes without too much effort.  For the departments, sometimes it is for the latter, but also it can be to get someone who has a different experience or skill set than the typical college prof, which can be helpful in many classes with a practical slant.  For example, in my husband's dept. they have at times successful entrepreneurs who volunteer to team teach in order to share their practical business experiences with students interested in starting their own.  Some of the entrepreneurs have enough experience teaching that they can teach the class on their own.

Edited by Calm
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43 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

I love you stem but sometimes you are hard to take seriously.

Let's say I go on FB right now and post about how I disagree with the CEO of my company on X, Y, and Z.  I would rightfully be fired. I get paid to make the company successful. If my public actions run counter to the stated mission and goals of the firm, I am hurting the company.  Why would any rational person pay someone who openly opposes their policies and goals?  That's absurd.

 You have to get this, brother.  You aren't dense.  You just ask these silly questions to get peopled riled up. And then when you are called on it, you play "who me!?"  LOL.  Basically your OP argues that the Anti Defamation League would be in the wrong to fire an employee who posts neo-Nazi memes on FB.

BEST. TROLL. EVER.

This is, hands down, the best post of the thread so far.

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10 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Face Book is not private. It is a open to the public forum for claiming almost anything. A good rule of thumb is to never put anything on the internet machine you don't want public.

I think another good rule of thumb is to not mix your religion with your employment.  This is not the first time something like this has happened.  BYU has been under sanction by the American Association of University Professors for over ten years because of academic freedom issues. 

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I'm late to the conversation so I'm sorry if I've repeated anything. 

I've taught at BYU-I, and it was one of the worst professional experiences of my life. It started out pretty good, but it turned into an incredibly micromanaging and passive aggressive place to work.  I found the people working there had all the faults of people working at other schools, but since it was for the church and the Lord's school everybody was way more arrogant and passive aggressive about it. Like they want to have an opening prayer before they shank you like a prison b. If somebody is angry, I'd rather they just be a little angry for a short time, and get through it, than drag out a passive aggressive farce while pretending they are really righteous about it. The course rigor was about the same as other schools I've taught, but they had way more micro managing (for the Lord!!!), and way more paperwork. Like I had to do more paperwork and respond to more supervisor messages in one week at BYU-I than I had to do in entire years at other schools. And when I made the mistake of letting them know that I do better with less contact, my supervisor thought it was a good idea (i.e., revelation) that she triple the amount of contact. meetings, and paperwork I had to do in a given week until I finally just walked away. (It felt so good.) 

I haven't even mentioned how they completely gutted, and then re-gutted the class I taught, to the point that I didn't even know what book we were using. They tripled my work load and stress, but then still made me jump through all of that paperwork. Ironically then, they made me do all this paperwork that was supposed to make me a productive teacher, but it took tons of time away from my teaching. If I complained about it, they would compare me to Laman and Lemuel. 

The worst part was how dogmatic the professors and students are. You would think of all the places where you might introduce topics mildly outside of rigid orthodoxy, like its okay to look at nude art, it would be at college. I'm not talking about convincing them to abandon the church, but at least to have a more nuanced and grown up view of the gospel. Thats what we all aim for right, and college is a great place to do that.  But I had to convince BYU-I students that renaissance art and the Epic of Gilgamesh are not pornography. (True stories, I had students that didn't want to do either assignment.)  But I had to do this convincing with over bearing supervisors checking every word and fundamentalist students ready to pounce on the smallest deviance from what they thought was orthodoxy. All it took was one message to my supervisor to get more hassle and paperwork.  And then, even though they were being rather annoying and passive aggressive they couched it in scriptures and happy talk so I could never really call them on their bs. They made me so angry and frustrated, but I couldn't show it because then they would question my righteousness. That would just make me even more frustrated and angry, because I felt like I was working for Dolores Umbridge at the Ministry of Magic. 

 Like Tom Hanks in Joe Verses the Volcano, you don't have to sell your happiness and sanity for an extra 125 dollars a week. Thats literally all I got at BYU-I. Even though BYU-I consumed the most time and paid me the least while giving me the most hassle.  In short, you can trust me on this, if the professor's experience was anything remotely like mine they will have a much more happy and fulfilling live not teaching at BYU.

Edited by morgan.deane
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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Everyone knows BY lived polygamy. It's probably the Nauvoo polygamy we weren't told much about that broke her shelf, 99.99% sure of it. It's broke thousands of shelfs, IMO. 

What is it about Nauvoo that you believe broke so many shelves?

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29 minutes ago, morgan.deane said:

 Like Tom Hanks in Joe Verses the Volcano, you don't have to sell your happiness and sanity for an extra 125 dollars a week. Thats literally all I got at BYU-I. Even though BYU-I consumed the most time and paid me the least while giving me the most hassle.  In short, you can trust me on this, if the professor's experience was anything remotely like mine they will have a much more happy and fulfilling live not teaching at BYU.

Only experienced it as a student, but lacking your vantage point, I completely loved it. My teachers were all phenomonal. If they were being micromanaged or stressed, or overburdened, they sure didn't show it. Peaceful, ubpeat, inspiring classes. Would have loved if it had been a 4-year school back then.Didn't want the experience to end.

Perhaps things have changed between then and when you taught...? Or you had a manager who was going through a really rought spot in their life at the time.

But kudos for you for leaving an environment that was caustic for you, and didn't show indications of getting better.

Edited by hagoth7
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Just now, hagoth7 said:

Only experienced it as a student, but lacking your vantage point, I completely loved it. My teachers were all phenomonal. If they were being micromanaged or stressed, or overburdened, they sure didn't show it. Peaceful, ubpeat, inspiring classes. Would have loved if it had been a 4-year school back then.Didn't want the experience to end.

Perhaps things have changed between then and when you taught...? Or you had a manager who was going through a really rought spot in their life at the time.

Most students didn't see the behind the scenes fireworks. When the most ironically named group ever, called the "course improvement team" gutted my course two semesters in a row, I got blamed by my students for being disorganized. But otherwise, all they saw was my usual great teaching.  That was one of the most ironic and frustrating things because the administration threatened to fire me at the same time that every teaching evaluation sounded like yours. 

BYU-I has their small slave army of adjuncts and don't seem to have missed a beat, and I'm way happier moving on. So it seems like a happy ending for everybody.  But I thought my unique perspective might help. 

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7 minutes ago, morgan.deane said:

Most students didn't see the behind the scenes fireworks....But I thought my unique perspective might help. 

Doesn't sound fun. Congrats for being proactive.

Someone I know taught at a high school where the politics were near unbearable. The better he did there, the more threatened/unkind a specific temperament type there got. Won't go into the details, other to say that despite everything they piled on him, and all the needed support he was denied, he emerged as teacher of the year.

He promptly left, and never looked back.

Edited by hagoth7
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Both my husband and my sister (English prof) have run into departments like that.  Tough gig.  Makes life overall pretty depressing.  If it is a college wide problem, would take a certain kind of personality to endure it.

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5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That caught my eye too. Not where I live?

OK, I just checked, and KFC have started trialling home delivery where I live (though not yet in my jurisdiction). Who knew?

Too bad it tastes so bad here. I've frequently joked that they couldn't get the original secret recipe past customs and so had to shift from 11 herbs and spices to 1.1 instead. Greasy and flavourless. :(

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14 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Too bad it tastes so bad here. I've frequently joked that they couldn't get the original secret recipe past customs and so had to shift from 11 herbs and spices to 1.1 instead. Greasy and flavourless. :(

Mebbe shft to another source of protein? As a simple test?

MIght not be direction for you. But was helpful for me.

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3 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

OF COURSE HE WOULD BE FIRED!  Are you serious?

An executive publicly criticizing internal company operations...      

In what way is expressing a wish for improvement criticism? Isn't being frank about an org's strengths, weakness, goals, and how one intends to shore up weaknesses to achieve those goals...part of reasonable/measured discussion.

If nothing deemed esecially proprietary is communicated, what is wrong with being transparent with customers?

And was it said whether that wish was expresed on a company FB page, specifically designed to engage with customers? If it was, it would be *even more* appropriate and fitting to say such a thing there, in response to a customer complaint, with frank admission of a temporary hiccup and expression of a wish for rapid resolution.

Edited by hagoth7
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32 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Mebbe shft to another source of protein? As a simple test?

Oh, I don't eat the stuff ... except when well-intentioned members feed it to me. I certainly would never buy it. I only buy meat of any kind about once a week, and that's usually to feed to the Elders and whomever I invite for them to teach on Monday nights.

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