Is there room for mysticism and magic in the Church?

[hagoth7]

6 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Once we know how something is done. It naturally becomes less magical to us.

I respectfullly disagree.

The more we know...

The biology class I took at Ricks (oops...BYU-I) ..oops Ricks (must be the impish elf in me that can't quite let go of that awesome Viing mascot...not sure whether to shrug, weep, or muster berzerker rage...meh, bid my time), Anywho, the biology class filled me with wonder and amazement that all of those bio-chemical interworkings that intrriciate and detailed were happening in my body and in every plant, every second and every day, reliable as clockwork. Simply amazed me that things didn't have a hiccup more often than once ever several decades.  

Did that "knowledge"  decrease my awe of creation? Nope. Deepened it.

Ditto with the physics class I took there. Plowing through that course with the text on my left, and the D&C on my right blew me away. Both at creation, and the profound depth of the restoration. 

The more we know...the more we're in wonder. And the more we know the more we're humbled to realize how much more there is to discover. Life is a *learn*-and-awe and campaign (hopefully where we rapidly apply what we learn to help others). A wee bit different than the supposed war on terror...or pretty much every war, for that matter.

Edited July 18, 2017 by hagoth7

[Flyonthewall]

I do not believe objects are imbued with "magical" properties - if they were, they would work more consistently.

Any and all miracles or "supernatural" events are only brought about by God.  Not even the power of the Priesthood can work without God's consent.

 

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, Flyonthewall said:

I do not believe objects are imbued with "magical" properties - if they were, they would work more consistently.

Any and all miracles or "supernatural" events are only brought about by God.  Not even the power of the Priesthood can work without God's consent.

 

The Liahona and the Seerstone addresses that concern.
Inconsistency in function is a work of inconsistency in faith and focus.

I Nephi 16:28 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to thefaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.
29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give usunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by small means the Lord can bring about great things.

"At times when Brother Joseph would attempt to translate he would look into the hat in which the stone was placed, he found he was spiritually blind and could not translate. He told us that his mind dwelt too much on earthly things, and various causes would make him incapable of proceeding with the translation. When in this condition he would go out and pray, and when he became sufficiently humble before God, he could then proceed with the translation. Now we see how very strict the Lord is, and how he requires the heart of man to be just right in his sight before he can receive revelation from him."  - David Whitmer

I do believe objects can be imbued with power.  From Aaron's staff to the tablets and Ark of the Covenant to the Liahona to Joseph Smith's handkerchief.
But only when God directs, and only according to our faith.

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Flyonthewall]

And thus, as I see it, it is something or someone other than the object that the power comes from.

If the object had the power, then whoever has the object has the power.

It is a bit as an electrical appliance - it is built for a certain purpose but is useless without being plugged into a power source.

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, Flyonthewall said:

And thus, as I see it, it is something or someone other than the object that the power comes from.

If the object had the power, then whoever has the object has the power.

It is a bit as an electrical appliance - it is built for a certain purpose but is useless without being plugged into a power source.

True enough.  But does that make the object unnecessary?

Could Lehi have led his family through the wilderness on faith alone?  Would God have led them just the same?
Could Wilford Woodruff have healed those twin girls with a standard priesthood blessing instead of Joseph's handkerchief?  Would God have honored that correctly performed administration?
Can we keep our temple covenants without wearing our garments?  Would God grant the blessings attached to the covenants just the same?

Joseph once said speaking of exploratory expeditions west "I want every man that goes to be a king and a priest. When he gets on the mountains he may want to talk with his God;".
Could not anyone have prayed to God and received an answer?

Either there is real power and knowledge found in utilizing the forms and items God has revealed, or there would be no point in God revealing them.
God can answer any prayer he wants, give any blessing if we are worthy, forgive our sins if we repent.  Yet still he requires us to learn a higher order of prayer, live specific laws to get blessings, and be immersed in water to complete our repentance.  I don't consider those forms to be mere instructional tools.

Edited July 19, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Flyonthewall]

Whether or not the object is unnecessary is a different matter.

The object is a tool as I see it.

Could Lehi have led his family through the wilderness on faith alone? I think yes, as long as God was willing.  Moses did not have a Liahona... of course he wandered for many years before arriving at his destination... Lehi arrived in a more expedited manner.

Blessings of the sick are a matter all to themselves... one hears of miraculous healings without the aid of a Priesthood blessing - so is it possible - yes.

I see the temple garment as a tool... a reminder of covenants, so do they help - yes indeed. Of course wearing the garment is a promise one makes so is there extra help in keeping yoru promises? sure.

Can anyone pray and get an answer....well Joseph Smith believed it.  As I understand it, answers to prayer depends on the stewardship of the one doing the praying.

Could I get an answer to prayer concerning the direction the church should be led? No - that's not under my stewardship.

 

[Garden Girl]

For me at age 76, and my sister at age 79, we sometimes look back over our lives and marvel at all of the changes and advancements we've seen and lived through generally... and, invariably, we think about our individual and shared spiritual experiences through the years... one particularly that we shared as little girls of 4 and 7 years old at the hands of a drunken father that still plays in our minds as if it was yesterday... I wrote about it not long ago and titled it... "The Night I Rode With Angels"... telling of a night when we were riding in the car with with our drunken father... there is no way we survived that ride unhurt or even dead except what we both believe to this day to be the intervention of guardian angels... that and the answer to a mother's desperate prayers who had no idea where her little girls were... little girls that should have been home hours earlier from a visitation day with their father... 

Through the years, I've felt the Spirit, and heard on occasion the still small voice so clear in my heart and mind... and felt the accompanying peace of heart... that defy understanding.  And am humbled by a priesthood blessing received the weekend prior to a scheduled surgery... after weeks of tests... only to find during the final test on the day of surgery that the problem miraculously no longer existed, absolutely puzzling my cardiologist, and has not returned these eight years since...  yes, I say miraculous because the barrage of tests I went through left no doubt of what needed to be done.

When I moved into my little home, I had it blessed... and after some remodeling with lots of workers in and out, blessed again.  I would not be comfortable if it wasn't blessed...

Yes, I believe in the power of prayer, healing priesthood blessings, promptings of the Spirit... that have filled my life and continue to do so...

GG

 

[JLHPROF]

13 hours ago, Garden Girl said:

When I moved into my little home, I had it blessed... and after some remodeling with lots of workers in and out, blessed again.  I would not be comfortable if it wasn't blessed...

I have struggled to find references over the years, but my understanding is that in the early days this dedication of a home was performed by a priesthood holder and done by priesthood authority.  In the Church today it is a prayer that can be offered by any family member.

Much like healing blessings, is one more authoritative than the other, or more effective in achieving the results asked for?
We have moved so far away from the idea that following prescribed ordinance and method is God's will, and have moved much closer to the idea that sincere intent and faith is all that is required to produce a result.
I still wonder if this is so.

[CV75]

17 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

True enough.  But does that make the object unnecessary?

Could Lehi have led his family through the wilderness on faith alone?  Would God have led them just the same?
Could Wilford Woodruff have healed those twin girls with a standard priesthood blessing instead of Joseph's handkerchief?  Would God have honored that correctly performed administration?
Can we keep our temple covenants without wearing our garments?  Would God grant the blessings attached to the covenants just the same?

Joseph once said speaking of exploratory expeditions west "I want every man that goes to be a king and a priest. When he gets on the mountains he may want to talk with his God;".
Could not anyone have prayed to God and received an answer?

Either there is real power and knowledge found in utilizing the forms and items God has revealed, or there would be no point in God revealing them.
God can answer any prayer he wants, give any blessing if we are worthy, forgive our sins if we repent.  Yet still he requires us to learn a higher order of prayer, live specific laws to get blessings, and be immersed in water to complete our repentance.  I don't consider those forms to be mere instructional tools.

The only tangible ordinances I can think of that aren’t subject to alteration by the Lord’s servants would be 1) baptism for the dead, since it is the only ordinance mentioned in scripture as “instituted from before the foundation of the world” (D&C 124:33); and 2) marriage since it was instituted before the Fall and carried into this world. The intangible laws, which on the other hand are innumerable, were also instituted before the foundation of the world (D&C 132: 5).

Every other tangible conveyance of divine power seems to have been instituted according to the Lord’s instructions in this world according to the circumstances and demands of the dispensation, time and place; the objects and protocols involved are necessary only for that dispensation, time and place, and these are revealed through the prophets. The laws are observed by the prophets in the conveyance of divine power according tot he keys they possess, even though their form and manner of expression may change.

[JLHPROF]

17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The only tangible ordinances I can think of that aren’t subject to alteration by the Lord’s servants would be 1) baptism for the dead, since it is the only ordinance mentioned in scripture as “instituted from before the foundation of the world” (D&C 124:33); and 2) marriage since it was instituted before the Fall and carried into this world. The intangible laws, which on the other hand are innumerable, were also instituted before the foundation of the world (D&C 132: 5).

 

Every other tangible conveyance of divine power seems to have been instituted according to the Lord’s instructions in this world according to the circumstances and demands of the dispensation, time and place; the objects and protocols involved are necessary only for that dispensation, time and place, and these are revealed through the prophets. The laws are observed by the prophets in the conveyance of divine power according tot he keys they possess, even though their form and manner of expression may change.

 

Interesting idea.
Joseph Smith would have disagreed - he said ALL ordinances were instituted before the foundation of the world and were not to be altered or changed.

[Garden Girl]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I have struggled to find references over the years, but my understanding is that in the early days this dedication of a home was performed by a priesthood holder and done by priesthood authority.  In the Church today it is a prayer that can be offered by any family member.

Much like healing blessings, is one more authoritative than the other, or more effective in achieving the results asked for?
We have moved so far away from the idea that following prescribed ordinance and method is God's will, and have moved much closer to the idea that sincere intent and faith is all that is required to produce a result.
I still wonder if this is so.

Hello JLH...

I chose to have a Priesthood holder perform the blessing each of the two times... as I, too, remember that home dedications were performed by PHs...

GG

[CV75]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Interesting idea.
Joseph Smith would have disagreed - he said ALL ordinances were instituted before the foundation of the world and were not to be altered or changed.

If you are referring to History of the Church, 5:423, he says “Ordinances…” not “All ordinances…” The only ordinance in the sense of being a rite discussed in the following pages was baptism of the dead. Principles and laws of the priesthood are also discussed, but in the sense of being ordinances in the sense of being decrees.

Page 423: “It was the design of the councils of heaven before the world was, that the principles and laws of the priesthood should be predicated upon the gathering of the people in every age of the world. … Ordinances [principles and laws] instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.”

Page 424: “One of the ordinances of the house of the Lord is baptism for the dead. God decreed before the foundation of the world that that ordinance [that specific rite] should be administered in a font prepared for that purpose in the house of the Lord.”

Edited July 19, 2017 by CV75

[CV75]

ooops!

Edited July 19, 2017 by CV75

[Maidservant]

I see the world as all energy, so for me, an object is energy, and it may also be invested with specific energy.  (And there are laws and properties to energy/energies that can be worked with to influence a tendency in your life.)

For example, the Book of Mormon.  It is energy in the shape of a book.  But it is also full of holiness--energetically (therefore in reality)--not merely because it describes holiness in its text, but because it has a frequency (???) at the level of holiness.  So the frequency that makes it a book as been 'amped' or whatever, to make it a 'holy book'.  I use this example, but this is how I feel when I hold the Book of Mormon and I don't think it can be explained only by my intent. Because quite often my desire to read or to believe or to be holy isn't there, which is why I want the book-object in the first place, to help induce a little more peaceful energy.  Not saying this has to be everyone's experience.  But I have sometimes simply held the Book of Mormon to help my own energy (like, from depression).  It could be said that it worked because I believed (i.e. placebo), but that's not my conclusion.

I love using objects.  I wear an onyx necklace as I understand it to possess the energy of protection.  Now, that doesn't mean I can stand in front of a gun and not bleed.  But it does tend to imbue the energy of my life as I go along,with the tendency of protection, and I look at it from 'every little bit helps'.  So it's not an absolute, but it is an energetic tendency.

However, I think my view is very much NOT how most Mormons would see things.

[Hamba Tuhan]

43 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

But I have sometimes simply held the Book of Mormon to help my own energy (like, from depression).

I have done this too, and on more than one occasion. I like your description!

[JLHPROF]

11 hours ago, Maidservant said:

I see the world as all energy, so for me, an object is energy, and it may also be invested with specific energy.  (And there are laws and properties to energy/energies that can be worked with to influence a tendency in your life.)

For example, the Book of Mormon.  It is energy in the shape of a book.  But it is also full of holiness--energetically (therefore in reality)--not merely because it describes holiness in its text, but because it has a frequency (???) at the level of holiness.  So the frequency that makes it a book as been 'amped' or whatever, to make it a 'holy book'.  I use this example, but this is how I feel when I hold the Book of Mormon and I don't think it can be explained only by my intent. Because quite often my desire to read or to believe or to be holy isn't there, which is why I want the book-object in the first place, to help induce a little more peaceful energy.  Not saying this has to be everyone's experience.  But I have sometimes simply held the Book of Mormon to help my own energy (like, from depression).  It could be said that it worked because I believed (i.e. placebo), but that's not my conclusion.

I love using objects.  I wear an onyx necklace as I understand it to possess the energy of protection.  Now, that doesn't mean I can stand in front of a gun and not bleed.  But it does tend to imbue the energy of my life as I go along,with the tendency of protection, and I look at it from 'every little bit helps'.  So it's not an absolute, but it is an energetic tendency.

However, I think my view is very much NOT how most Mormons would see things.

 

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have done this too, and on more than one occasion. I like your description!

I had a teacher once who recommended sleeping with your scriptures under your pillow/beside you, etc when you were feeling especially troubled.
Not sure how I feel about that one.

[JLHPROF]

21 hours ago, CV75 said:

If you are referring to History of the Church, 5:423, he says “Ordinances…” not “All ordinances…” The only ordinance in the sense of being a rite discussed in the following pages was baptism of the dead. Principles and laws of the priesthood are also discussed, but in the sense of being ordinances in the sense of being decrees.

Page 423: “It was the design of the councils of heaven before the world was, that the principles and laws of the priesthood should be predicated upon the gathering of the people in every age of the world. … Ordinances [principles and laws] instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.”

Page 424: “One of the ordinances of the house of the Lord is baptism for the dead. God decreed before the foundation of the world that that ordinance [that specific rite] should be administered in a font prepared for that purpose in the house of the Lord.”

Ordinances plural.  I fail to see how that can be limited to a single ordinance just because that one ordinance was the one that brought the information.
Ordinances are not principles and laws.  Clearly Joseph taught that multiple rites existed from before the foundation of the world.

[CV75]

37 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Ordinances plural.  I fail to see how that can be limited to a single ordinance just because that one ordinance was the one that brought the information.
Ordinances are not principles and laws.  Clearly Joseph taught that multiple rites existed from before the foundation of the world.

I don't see how you get those conclusions from the History of the Church passages*. From the Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Online Edition:

Ordinance

OR'DINANCE, noun

1. A rule established by authority; a permanent rule of action. An ordinance may be a law or statute of sovereign power. In this sense it is often used in the Scriptures. Exodus 15:25. Numbers 10:8. Ezra 3:10. It may also signify a decree, edict or rescript, and the word has sometimes been applied to the statutes of Parliament, but these are usually called acts or laws. In the United States, it is never applied to the acts of Congress, or of a state legislature.

2. Observance commanded.

3. Appointment.

4. Established rite or ceremony. Hebrews 9:1. In this sense, baptism and the Lord's supper are denominated ordinances.

* In these passages, the only rite he is teaching about is baptism for the dead (an ordinance, per definition 4). He is also teaching about laws, principles and establishing the priesthood (ordinances per the other definitions).

[hagoth7]

On 7/17/2017 at 2:48 PM, JLHPROF said:

Ok, I'm not really sure how to approach discussion of this topic.
Mostly because I am not an academic with expertise in ancient cultures, religions, or philosophy.
Also because I am not looking to take the Quinn magic world view approach and focus on folk magic and pagan traditions etc.

Are you comfortable addressing elven/si traditions of healing, visions, controlling the elements, entering other realms, and seership, given the premise of a Nephite/Ammonite/10-tribe diaspora?

[JLHPROF]

41 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Are you comfortable addressing elven/si traditions of healing, visions, controlling the elements, entering other realms, and seership, given the premise of a Nephite/Ammonite/10-tribe diaspora?

No.
I am more interested in discussing Joseph's teachings on meeting God face to face, parting the veil and receiving direct revelation, and the power inherent in priesthood authority.

[hagoth7]

23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No.
I am more interested in discussing Joseph's teachings on meeting God face to face, parting the veil and receiving direct revelation, and the power inherent in priesthood authority.

I question the dichotomy, but I wish you well with your thread.

[2BizE]

Magic and superstition have long been a theme in mormon culture.

Here is a link to an excellent academic article on healing in the church.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/our-rites-worship-latter-day-saint-views-ritual-history-scripture-and-practice/pouring-oil

[The Nehor]

As an accomplished alchemist and hermetic wizard I feel I can chime in here.....oh wait, sorry, thread title was misleading.  

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

As an accomplished alchemist and hermetic wizard I feel I can chime in here.....oh wait, sorry, thread title was misleading.  

But not really?

Does not Mormonism claim access to ancient and eternal rites designed to bestow its membership with special knowledge and power hidden from the world?
There is something of alchemy in the transformation of mortal man into his eternal nature.