Mormonism and Quantum Mechanics -- a crazy idea

[cdowis]

The Book of Mormon and Abraham make it clear that matter has intelligence, a basic form of free will.  But how far does this intelligence extend? 

I suggest that this intelligence is rooted at the quantum level, which may explain some of the crazy things that happen in this realm.  Perhaps mix in abit of chaos theory as well.

Just a crazy suggestion for some smart person with nothing else to do.

Edited July 17, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

If any interest is generated by this thread, I have another crazy idea.

[thesometimesaint]

Rational thought seems to be tied to sufficient biochemical reactions to necessitate it. Not too sure that at the quantum level such biochemical reactions can take place.

[cdowis]

22 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Rational thought seems to be tied to sufficient biochemical reactions to necessitate it. Not too sure that at the quantum level such biochemical reactions can take place.

Huh?  The pre-existent intelligences were based on biochemical reactions?  A rather novel view of the pre-existence.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

The Book of Mormon and Abraham make it clear that matter has intelligence, a basic form of free will.  But how far does this intelligence extend? 

I suggest that this intelligence is rooted at the quantum level, which may explain some of the crazy things that happen in this realm.  Perhaps mix in abit of chaos theory as well.

Just a crazy suggestion for some smart person with nothing else to do.

I suppose there are as many kinds of intelligence as there are forms of life in their particular sphere and measure of creation. There are many types and modalities of intelligence in the human being alone.

It is interesting to me that in D&C 93, spirit and element receive a fulness of joy when they are inseparably connected, perhaps indicating that separately they each receive a portion (less than a fulness of quanta) or a quantum of joy. In D&C 88 "Intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence," and perhaps this is how they are connected and behold the joy in the Lord's countenance (I suppose that fully "beholding" is more than "seeing," but is fully comprehending).

Could it be that "quanta [both spirit or element matter] cleaveth unto quanta" until they become one and something greater, and then one with something greater, and then ultimately inseparably connected spirit and element?

I think the craziness is in the idea that spirit and element are two distinct life forms, but I suppose crazier things have been said!

[Bobbieaware]

21 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Rational thought seems to be tied to sufficient biochemical reactions to necessitate it. Not too sure that at the quantum level such biochemical reactions can take place.

Do you think that the spirit bodies of the intelligent spirit children of God experience the same kinds of biochemical reactions that we experience in our earthly bodies?

[thesometimesaint]

41 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Huh?  The pre-existent intelligences were based on biochemical reactions?  A rather novel view of the pre-existence.

Joseph claimed they are light and truth. He doesn't define them further. Without appeals to the supernatural I have no idea as to what pre-existent intelligences are. Let alone what they can do.

The quantum level is subatomic. It is hard to see how anything that small as having rational thought.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics

Edited July 17, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[USU78]

The uncertainty principle, the theory (largely confirmed) that each electron takes all possible routes from point A to point B, quantum weirdness generally (pairs of particles/quanta traveling in different directions in time, for example), imperfect results in chemical reactions, are these evidence of choice in individual quanta/quarks/particles/atoms/molecules?

[Robert F. Smith]

“Chinese scientists just teleported an object into Earth's orbit for the first time,” Business Insider UK, July 11, 2017, online at https://www.yahoo.com/news/chinese-just-teleported-object-earth-225500655.html .

Quote

Quantum teleportation relies on quantum entanglement — a situation where one set of quantum objects (such as photons) form at the same instant and point in space. . . . there's also no maximum transportation distance.

Sean Martin, “SHOCK QUANTUM THEORY: The future is affecting the PAST,” Express.co.uk, Jul 10, 2017, online at http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/826886/time-travel-quantum-mechanics-einstein-retrocausality . 

Quote

The standard quantum theory dictates that all the particles in the universe have no definitive states – weirdly, that is, until they are measured.  Additionally, when two particles interact, they become entangled on a quantum, sub-atomic level and rid themselves of their individual probabilities.

* * * * 

“retrocausiality” suggests that a particle can run backwards through time to the point where it is entangled and affects its partner that way.

* * * * 

Bell’s Theorem:  if particles have definite states even when no one is looking – known as ‘realism’ – and no signal travels faster than light – ‘locality’ – then there is a limit to the amount of correlation that can be observed between the measured states of two particles.

 

[snowflake]

27 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

“Chinese scientists just teleported an object into Earth's orbit for the first time,” Business Insider UK, July 11, 2017, online at https://www.yahoo.com/news/chinese-just-teleported-object-earth-225500655.html .

Sean Martin, “SHOCK QUANTUM THEORY: The future is affecting the PAST,” Express.co.uk, Jul 10, 2017, online at http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/826886/time-travel-quantum-mechanics-einstein-retrocausality . 

 

Great article Robert!  Quantum mechanics is weird stuff, even to the trained expert! I believe the term is "non-locality".... that all photons are somehow connected to each other and know what the others are doing. 

Interesting that the article stated that: "The photons are “entangled” which means that they were created at the exact same moment."   

From what I understand the LDS don't believe matter was "created" but that it has always existed and was "organized" by God and Jesus in the beginning, no?  

[snowflake]

Here is the link again,

http://unexplained.co/news/chinese-scientists-just-teleported-an-object-into-earths-orbit-for-the-first-time/13647/

[Bobbieaware]

2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Joseph claimed they are light and truth. He doesn't define them further. Without appeals to the supernatural I have no idea as to what pre-existent intelligences are. Let alone what they can do.

The quantum level is subatomic. It is hard to see how anything that small as having rational thought.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics

He said more that that. The prophet Joseph Smith also said the following:

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence (D&C 93)

The above clearly means all forms of truth and intelligence, in whatever sphere they are placed, have agency (are free to act for themselves) and if this were not so nothing could exist. So even truth has the ability to make its own free-wiil choices.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

“Chinese scientists just teleported an object into Earth's orbit for the first time,” Business Insider UK, July 11, 2017, online at https://www.yahoo.com/news/chinese-just-teleported-object-earth-225500655.html .

Sean Martin, “SHOCK QUANTUM THEORY: The future is affecting the PAST,” Express.co.uk, Jul 10, 2017, online at http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/826886/time-travel-quantum-mechanics-einstein-retrocausality . 

 

Commenting the first and second quotes from the second article:

The standard quantum theory dictates that all the particles in the universe have no definitive states – weirdly, that is, until they are measured.  [We –all things -- are free to progress until the final judgement*] Additionally, when two particles interact, they become entangled on a quantum, sub-atomic level and rid themselves of their individual probabilities. [Paraphrasing D&C 88, "quanta -- as both spirit or element matter -- cleaveth unto quanta" until they become one (and something greater), and then additionally one with other cleaved quanta (some being categorized as “spirit” and some as “element,” but all along a continuum), and then ultimately inseparably connected spirit and element.]

* * * *

“retrocausiality” suggests that a particle can run backwards through time to the point where it is entangled and affects its partner that way [*allowing inseparably connected spirit and element to always be, post-measurement as described above, as though they always were, a reference to the blessings of the redemption].

[clarkgoble]

6 hours ago, cdowis said:

The Book of Mormon and Abraham make it clear that matter has intelligence, a basic form of free will.  But how far does this intelligence extend? 

I suggest that this intelligence is rooted at the quantum level, which may explain some of the crazy things that happen in this realm.  Perhaps mix in abit of chaos theory as well.

Just a crazy suggestion for some smart person with nothing else to do.

I'm really skeptical that quantum mechanics has much to do with free will for a variety of reasons. For one thing you tend to get convergence the larger scale you go. For an other thing, if you take the ontological interpretation of Hamiltonian distributions then it's pure randomness at an ontological level. Which is no better for robust theories of free will than determinism is. (Assuming you think libertarian free will is what's required to speak of free will -- I'm not convinced myself)

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

“Chinese scientists just teleported an object into Earth's orbit for the first time,” Business Insider UK, July 11, 2017, online at https://www.yahoo.com/news/chinese-just-teleported-object-earth-225500655.html .

Sean Martin, “SHOCK QUANTUM THEORY: The future is affecting the PAST,” Express.co.uk, Jul 10, 2017, online at http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/826886/time-travel-quantum-mechanics-einstein-retrocausality . 

 

I'd be careful calling that teleportation. It's not teleportation to my eyes anymore than a radio or TV is.

To the second, it's definitely possible to conceive of entanglement working through time rather than just space. There's nothing in the math to mitigate against it, although most physicists at this stage would say it's more akin to virtual particles and thus a mathematical artifact. I'd be careful with most popularized treatments of the issues. Aeon had a more grounded discussion of the issue a while by by Huw Price. Price has written a lot on the philosophy of time and is a very good and respected philosopher of science.

https://aeon.co/essays/can-retrocausality-solve-the-puzzle-of-action-at-a-distance

 

[cdowis]

7 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

 

The quantum level is subatomic. It is hard to see how anything that small as having rational thought.

 

The point I was making is that the intelligence is ROOTED in the quantum world.  It is the medium of the operation of intelligence itself (a river), and how we are able to observe that intelligence in operation.  

Unfortunately, I am getting on in years, so I don't have the time left to figure it out.  I am certain there is something to this, so I am hoping someone will think about it.

Edited July 17, 2017 by cdowis

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, cdowis said:

The point I was making is that the intelligence is ROOTED in the quantum world.  It is the medium of the operation of intelligence itself (a river), and how we are able to observe that intelligence in operation.  

Unfortunately, I am getting on in years, so I don't have the time left to figure it out.  I am certain there is something to this, so I am hoping someone will think about it.

I think that much is true. Exactly how consciousness or the first person perspective emerges from that is not at all clear. Some will note that the old Copenhagen interpretation and related views put an observer front and center to quantum theory. While most physicists don't follow that theory, there are some interesting aspects to it. In more recent years the successor to the Copenhagen Interpretation is called the Bayesian Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics or Quantum Bayesianism (QB). 

A good overview of this speculation can be found from the founder:

https://www.quantamagazine.org/quantum-bayesianism-explained-by-its-founder-20150604/

It's worth noting though that this is very, very controversial. Although it's not clear to me why the Multiple Worlds Intepretation of QM that tends to be most popular among physicists has fewer controversial ontological claims. (It's main benefit that physicists like is just treating the math realistically and ignoring weird things like wave function collapse that other interpretations require)

My own view is that I just think space is inherently non-local and ultimately will have to be viewed in a four dimensional way. But I'm not particularly attached to that view.

[thesometimesaint]

22 hours ago, snowflake said:

Great article Robert!  Quantum mechanics is weird stuff, even to the trained expert! I believe the term is "non-locality".... that all photons are somehow connected to each other and know what the others are doing. 

Interesting that the article stated that: "The photons are “entangled” which means that they were created at the exact same moment."   

From what I understand the LDS don't believe matter was "created" but that it has always existed and was "organized" by God and Jesus in the beginning, no?  

I of course can't speak for all Mormon's but this one believes E=MC(squared).

[hagoth7]

On 7/17/2017 at 7:58 AM, cdowis said:

The Book of Mormon and Abraham make it clear that matter has intelligence, a basic form of free will.  But how far does this intelligence extend? ...for some smart person with nothing else to do.

Extends far enough to encourage me to follow up on the last interview. Does that count?

I may not be a very smart man, but I know what [work] is.

[hagoth7]

On 7/17/2017 at 9:11 AM, CV75 said:

(I suppose that fully "beholding" is more than "seeing," but is fully comprehending).

The word "hearken" is used frequently, along with behold.

Bif-rost supposedly means "listen".  A bridge that was to be broken. 

rost=voice.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifröst

And the bridge Hermod was said to have to cross to Hel to retrieve this slain brother Baldr.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjallarbrú

The Gallehus horns are likely named after this account. Discovered near a town whose last syllable simply means "house."

1. The disappearance of the golden horns unleashed a cultural earthquake across Scandinavia the year Hyrum was born,

2. Engraved on them was the name of a king...mentioned in Nibelunglied...from the descendants of Nefi.

I highly recommend reviewing Oehlenschlaeger's poem about the Golden Horns.

Golden ancestral treasure. With engraved message.Contemporary with Mormon and Moroni. Discovered in the earth by two humble people, a century apart, even though those hungry for gold after the first horn had hungrily combed every inch of the area during that time fruitlessly. Entrusted to the king for a time. But when not appreciated...when people were distracted fby the glitter, instead of focusing on the message...the  two horns were taken/received to heaven. 

God prepared the Danes for the Restoration in the early 1800's...and the day *will come* when many of them of good heart will line up for baptism, not like the day when Charlemagne threatened their fathers at the point of the sword, but because they genuinely/humbly wish to embrace the faith of their fathers

Edited July 18, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

JJF hisH

[Physics Guy]

The Many Worlds interpretation had a certain vogue in the 1990s, but I think people got over it. I haven't met anyone who is keen on it for many years. I wouldn't say that Quantum Bayesianism is any kind of orthodoxy now, either. Insofar as there is an orthodoxy about the interpretation of quantum mechanics, it's still the "sleepwalker" attitude that J.S. Bell described in the 1960s: Don't interpret at all. Simply shut up and calculate.

I'm interested in the foundations of quantum mechanics myself, so I don't mean to just pour scorn on the topic. You have to understand, though: the applications of the theory have spread so far by now that the old discussions about What It All Means look about as ridiculously oversimplified as Marxist economics looks in the age of 3D printing and e-commerce.

So maybe intelligence and quantum mechanics will turn out to have something to do with each other. Suggesting that, though, is kind of like suggesting that the ruins of Zarahemla must be somewhere in the Americas. It's not really specific enough as an idea for me to see how to pursue it.

[cdowis]

23 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

My own view is that I just think space is inherently non-local and ultimately will have to be viewed in a four dimensional way. But I'm not particularly attached to that view.

It will be interesting what insights you may have in 10-20 years.

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, Physics Guy said:

So maybe intelligence and quantum mechanics will turn out to have something to do with each other. Suggesting that, though, is kind of like suggesting that the ruins of Zarahemla must be somewhere in the Americas. It's not really specific enough as an idea for me to see how to pursue it.

I like the way you put it.

The major feature of the world of QM is that it is so different from our own reality, and that is why I think there is some link.  it is almost like a dream world with its own rules, and utterly beyond comprehension (so far).  You have to start SOMEWHERE, and why not the world of intelligences.  We know nothing about them, and vey little about QM, so it seems an interesting match -- possibly the spiritual world is touching our reality thu QM.  Instantaneous movement thru Infinite distances and possibly past, present and future time.

Edited July 19, 2017 by cdowis

[clarkgoble]

5 hours ago, Physics Guy said:

The Many Worlds interpretation had a certain vogue in the 1990s, but I think people got over it. I haven't met anyone who is keen on it for many years.

I was primarily going by a recent Bloggingheads TV interview of Adam Frank by Robert Wright who is a big QBism proponent. Frank said MWI was still the dominant interpretation so I assumed he'd know.

But you raise a good question of what is it physicists do believe. I just don't know for sure. I found a poll from 2013 which found the Copenhagen interpretation was the overwhelming popular choice at 42%. Which was rather surprising to me. (Copenhagen always seemed a dodge driven by the net-kantianism that a lot of the German figures of the era were brought up with) Unfortunately it polled only 33 people at a Quantum Conference so it isn't too meaningful.  Everything I found either refers to that poll or the earlier one from 1995 that was more pro-MWI. So I suspect we don't really know.

I need to read up on QBism as it's still not entirely clear to me how it differs exactly from Copenhagen. Back in college I was enamored of Cramer's transactional interpretation of QM but I confess it's been so long I don't remember much about it. I rarely hear about it (supposedly there's a relativistic form around) so I assume it didn't really catch on.  

5 hours ago, Physics Guy said:

I'm interested in the foundations of quantum mechanics myself, so I don't mean to just pour scorn on the topic. You have to understand, though: the applications of the theory have spread so far by now that the old discussions about What It All Means look about as ridiculously oversimplified as Marxist economics looks in the age of 3D printing and e-commerce.

So maybe intelligence and quantum mechanics will turn out to have something to do with each other. Suggesting that, though, is kind of like suggesting that the ruins of Zarahemla must be somewhere in the Americas. It's not really specific enough as an idea for me to see how to pursue it.

Fully agree. As soon as someone starts appealing to QM I generally tune out. Penrose's model was a bit interesting but I never fully bought it. (When was that? Late 90's?) These days I just think we don't know enough given the gaps between QM & GR, the relative disappointment of string theory, and lots of cosmological oddities still unexplained that I think it kind of pointless to get wrapped up in an interpretation of an incomplete theory. The last book on interpretation I bought was Philosophy Meets Physics at the Planck Scale. That was way back in 2001 and I kind of lost interest after that. But back in the day I did hear all the various models including trying to fit the observer in as an ontological feature to explain consciousness. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by clarkgoble