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DBMormon

most incredible missionary story

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7 minutes ago, juliann said:

He will accept that a reporter did " his journalistic responsibility" if he did what DB says to do? That is not questioning the newspaper, Hagoth.  He has made up a nonexistent "journalistic responsibility" and then challenged Scott to defend himself. What do you think the conclusion is when the demand is framed in that manner and Scott doesn't do as ordered? Not. Cool. 

I take it that you and Scott know each other well, and that you're more familiar with DB than I am. So you may have the more accurate bead on things here. But I lack that vantage point.

So for now, I simply opt to take the OP at face value, that the credibility of the entire newspaper was being called into question. If so, *that* ain't cool.

DB?

Edited by hagoth7

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44 minutes ago, juliann said:

CFR that a journalist has "journalistic responsibility" to verify every detail when reporting on the content of a speech. 

One does not.  If one reports on a speech, essentially, one is reporting that the speech was given along with, perhaps, sketching out its broad details.  If, later, credible information comes to light which calls into question the veracity of the speech as reported, then follow up probably is in order.  Even basic fact-checking on a fact-intensive story isn't always easy, let alone ensuring the veracity of things relayed by a third party.

P.S.: And nobody's ever been fired from the Deseret News for passing on juicy tidbits that amounted to little more than salacious gossip to a national tabloid for a price.  That wonderful little episode happened at Utah's allegedly-more-trustworthy "newspaper of record."

Edited by Kenngo1969

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1 hour ago, DBMormon said:

http://www.mormonlight.org/2017/06/30/elder-holland-shares-one-incredible-missionary-stories-time/

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865683974/The-divine-companionship-includes-the-Holy-Ghost-in-missionary-work-Elder-Holland-says.html
 

Can Scott verify that he as a journalist has ensured these are real people on the other end of this story?  It sounds as though Elder Holland did not share names and Scott took his word for it.  Curious how we go about ensuring the story took place the way the article says it did.  

I find the story as told in the deseret news to be unbelievable and would like to verify this story being based in a factual account.  How do I do that?   Certainly before we put such a story in a credible newspaper we would do some due diligence and ensure the story is based in historical fact.

I am thinking of how many times I have claimed details that I wouldn't share the end source for them and how many here including Scott gave me a hard time for such.

Is this a story we simply need faith to believe or is there any responsibility on the part of a real Newspaper to fact check stories or just publish hearsay (maybe true or maybe not)?

This has little to do with my trust of Elder Holland but rather whether such stories would ever come out of a credible newspaper in this form?

Is the message any less true if Scott didn't verify it?

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3 minutes ago, JulieM said:

He said he'd take Scott's word.  Read his post as I see it as saying something quite different from how you interpreted it.

Here's what he stated:

"I would take Scott's word that he did his journalistic responsibility and verified the story through the actual participants."

There is no such journalistic responsibility. He made that up. He set up a false dilemma. If Scott doesn't say he verified every detail of a talk, he hasn't done his journalistic responsibility. It is called a false dilemma. Or even a syllogism. Would you like more detail? 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, JulieM said:

 

Here's what he stated:

"I would take Scott's word that he did his journalistic responsibility and verified the story through the actual participants."

Which means DB is defining what Scott's journalistic responsibility is...if he didn't verify it through the actual participants, he failed DB's standard.

Edited by Calm

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1 hour ago, DBMormon said:

I would take Scott's word that he did his journalistic responsibility and verified the story through the actual participants

Why would you believe the actual participants if you can't trust those who relayed their story?  Wouldn't you require proof from them as well? 

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30 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

The LDS Church News is a biased sourced, so one would expect it to take Elder Holland's word at face value.  Please don't misunderstand me; when I say it is biased, I'm saying it is supporting the LDS church.  I'm not saying it is bad.  There is nothing wrong with it since it is an official publication of the LDS church.  In fact, at the end of the article, there is this disclaimer:

L'Osservatore Romano is the official newspaper of The Vatican, and you can be sure that it is biased towards the Catholic Church.  But that's ok, too, because it is in the same category as the LDS Church News.

So, from my point-of-view, the OP is rather silly.

 

ETA: I notice that the Oxford comma is missing in that disclaimer... Scott, ignore the silliness of the OP and weigh in on your thoughts on the Oxford comma.  Is it against the LDS Church News style guide?  I'm a big fan of that comma... ;)

 

I've grown to like it as well. 

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19 minutes ago, Calm said:

Which means DB is defining what Scott's journalistic responsibility is...if he didn't verify it through the actual participants, he failed DB's standard.

Knowing Scott, I'm sure he was thorough.  I really interpret what DB said as he trusts Scott.

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1 hour ago, DBMormon said:

Can Scott verify that he as a journalist has ensured these are real people on the other end of this story?  It sounds as though Elder Holland did not share names and Scott took his word for it.  Curious how we go about ensuring the story took place the way the article says it did.

The article is re[porting on Elder Holland's remarks at the seminar. Is Scott supposed to verify that what he reported is reported by a real person?

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Scott,

I have a suggestion for you. Please contact this family and write a piece for MormonTimes. Talk about a faith promoting story. It would be amazing to publish this account and would be an inspiration for so many.

I have relatives who still work the family farm in Pocatello which was originally purchased in 1907. They have deep roots in Southern Idaho and they would love to learn more about this story and the family involved.

Thanks

Edited by Peppermint Patty

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1 hour ago, JulieM said:

I agree and well stated.  I disagree with Scott a lot on here, but his word is something you can depend on.  He's a good person.

Given Scott's attacks on me and his questioning of my integrity, I have no reason to come to his defense. But I don't doubt for a moment that he accurately reported the content of Elder Holland's speech. I'm confident his reporting was as close to 100% correct as possible. 

Whether or not the story leans more faith-promoting than factually true is up to the listener.  One may wish to take Elder Holland's track record into account. 

Edited by rockpond

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2 hours ago, DBMormon said:

http://www.mormonlight.org/2017/06/30/elder-holland-shares-one-incredible-missionary-stories-time/

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865683974/The-divine-companionship-includes-the-Holy-Ghost-in-missionary-work-Elder-Holland-says.html
 

Can Scott verify that he as a journalist has ensured these are real people on the other end of this story?  It sounds as though Elder Holland did not share names and Scott took his word for it.  Curious how we go about ensuring the story took place the way the article says it did.  

I find the story as told in the deseret news to be unbelievable and would like to verify this story being based in a factual account.  How do I do that?   Certainly before we put such a story in a credible newspaper we would do some due diligence and ensure the story is based in historical fact.

I am thinking of how many times I have claimed details that I wouldn't share the end source for them and how many here including Scott gave me a hard time for such.

Is this a story we simply need faith to believe or is there any responsibility on the part of a real Newspaper to fact check stories or just publish hearsay (maybe true or maybe not)?

This has little to do with my trust of Elder Holland but rather whether such stories would ever come out of a credible newspaper in this form?

Hi Bill,

Nice to hear from you.  Appreciate your question.  I even have in my HP group a former long-time Hell's Angel who also became our beloved ward bishop -- a wonderful man who may even know that prodigal guy mentioned by Elder Holland (I'll ask him about it tomorrow).  In any case, I have no problem accepting the claim that such a story took place as described.  It is no more unbelievable than many a New Testament story of the Holy Spirit directing the Brethren to go here or there and find this or that -- all to the good of the Body of Christ.

Bear in mind, Bill, that the Deseret News is owned by the LDS Church and that the works and words of the Apostles of that Church are considered to take place in the same vein as those of the New Testament Apostles.  They are not subject to the same rules of journalism that apply to secular newspapers.  Especially since they are clearly labeled as part of the "Faith" section:  "The LDS Church News is an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The publication's content supports the doctrines, principles and practices of the Church."  Could they be more up front about it?

As to the dogs, in order to find dog handlers in WW II, men were made to walk by a kennel to see the reactions of the dogs.  For some reason, there are men whom the dogs will not attack (even if they bark initially), and they are selected as dog handler candidates.  My own father was an example of just such a man.  He was a very confident man, and dogs liked him for some reason.  Dogs sense fear, and he had none.

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7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I even have in my HP group a former long-time Hell's Angel who also became our beloved ward bishop -- a wonderful man who may even know that prodigal guy mentioned by Elder Holland (I'll ask him about it tomorrow).

While you're at it, ask him if he ever hung around the Grateful Dead scene. There was a strange mix of Dead and Hell's Angels in the 60s and 70s that lingered on a bit into the 80s.

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49 minutes ago, Peppermint Patty said:

Scott,

I have a suggestion for you. Please contact this family and write a piece for MormonTimes. Talk about a faith promoting story. It would be amazing to publish this account and would be an inspiration for so many.

I have relatives who still work the family farm in Pocatello which was originally purchased in 1907. They have deep roots in Southern Idaho and they would love to learn more about this story and the family involved.

Thanks

According to the write-up, Elder Holland was very clear that the people would remain anonymous. I would assume that was at their request. 

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2 hours ago, juliann said:

CFR that a journalist has "journalistic responsibility" to verify every detail when reporting on the content of a speech. 

Apparently none of the national television news programs or major newspapers do such a thing.  It appears DB wants to hold - not Elder Holland - but the Deseret News to a higher standard.  I can appreciate the desire to hold ourselves to the highest standards.  But what baffles me is why DB either assumes Elder Holland is untrustworthy or he assumes both Elder Holland and the Deseret News are untrustworthy.  My, how our heart's have hardened.

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I don't doubt the main components of the story actually happened.  With 75,000 missionaries meeting thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of people each year, one should expect some incredible coincidences / miracles such as this to occur.

What I find unbelievable is that stories such as these are so rare that it made the Deseret News (and making the rounds on social media).  With God leading and guiding his missionaries why don't we hear about these miraculous stories all the time?

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1 hour ago, omni said:

I don't doubt the main components of the story actually happened.  With 75,000 missionaries meeting thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of people each year, one should expect some incredible coincidences / miracles such as this to occur.

What I find unbelievable is that stories such as these are so rare that it made the Deseret News (and making the rounds on social media).  With God leading and guiding his missionaries why don't we hear about these miraculous stories all the time?

I hear about them every time a returned missionary speaks. Some are more dramatic than others. I think it would be rather odd to be putting them in a major newspaper on a regular basis but that is just me. 

I wonder if part of the problem with believing stories is how they are told. The first person style, quotes and all, doesn't do much for me when it is told by someone who wasn't there. For me, the story can get lost in the flowery telling of it. It can sound manufactured merely because of the language it is wrapped in.  

I suspect we will be hearing this story in a lot of Sacrament meeting talks....

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Any posters here who used to be hard-core Mormon (TBM, whatever that means), went on a mission, had experiences like this, but aren't really Mormon anymore?

I'd be interested in hearing how they would interpret those experiences now.

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3 hours ago, omni said:

I don't doubt the main components of the story actually happened.  With 75,000 missionaries meeting thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of people each year, one should expect some incredible coincidences / miracles such as this to occur.

What I find unbelievable is that stories such as these are so rare that it made the Deseret News (and making the rounds on social media).  With God leading and guiding his missionaries why don't we hear about these miraculous stories all the time?

I think they exist but you're right they are not always a) easy to find, and b) believable. I read one account similar to this in a book by Elder Gerald Lund about a missionary in Brazil that gets sent to a mission in Brazil and IIRC the first door they knock on is some long lost sibling. I find some stories easier to believe than others. 

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6 hours ago, juliann said:

CFR that a journalist has "journalistic responsibility" to verify every detail when reporting on the content of a speech. 

I agree with this.  The reporter was reporting on a speech Jeffrey Holland gave at a training meeting.  This was not an investigative reporting effort. The only responsibility Des News had was to make sure Holland was quoted correctly.  It is up to the reader to either believe the story or not.  

With that said, after the BBC interview and his ten new stakes a week talk, I'm taking this story with a grain of salt.  

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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Any posters here who used to be hard-core Mormon (TBM, whatever that means), went on a mission, had experiences like this, but aren't really Mormon anymore?

I'd be interested in hearing how they would interpret those experiences now.

I would like to ask this of Sidney Rigdon , or for that matter Oliver Cowdrey , even though he did eventually return to the flock in Utah. Hey , even Peter was a bit shaky at first despite all the miracles he witnessed. The natural man can sure get in the way sometimes.

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8 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hey, Scott's picture is at the end of that article. Nice to see you, Scott :)

 

Yeah, he's as good looking as he writes! :)

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9 hours ago, DBMormon said:

http://www.mormonlight.org/2017/06/30/elder-holland-shares-one-incredible-missionary-stories-time/

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865683974/The-divine-companionship-includes-the-Holy-Ghost-in-missionary-work-Elder-Holland-says.html
 

Can Scott verify that he as a journalist has ensured these are real people on the other end of this story?  It sounds as though Elder Holland did not share names and Scott took his word for it.  Curious how we go about ensuring the story took place the way the article says it did.  

I find the story as told in the deseret news to be unbelievable and would like to verify this story being based in a factual account.  How do I do that?   Certainly before we put such a story in a credible newspaper we would do some due diligence and ensure the story is based in historical fact.

I am thinking of how many times I have claimed details that I wouldn't share the end source for them and how many here including Scott gave me a hard time for such.

Is this a story we simply need faith to believe or is there any responsibility on the part of a real Newspaper to fact check stories or just publish hearsay (maybe true or maybe not)?

This has little to do with my trust of Elder Holland but rather whether such stories would ever come out of a credible newspaper in this form?

DB;

You're just as skeptical and play victim as ever. You are consistant. 

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6 hours ago, juliann said:

According to the write-up, Elder Holland was very clear that the people would remain anonymous. I would assume that was at their request. 

That is probable. Just tonight I gave a Lyft ride from Bush Intercontinental Airport to Downtown Houston and dhe happened to be one of the producers for HBO's Silicon Valley. I intentionally asked and verified what I may divulge to people. She said her name and title and I still chose not to divulge her name publicly just to make sure her privacy is protected. It was still a thrill to have her in my car. 

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13 hours ago, rpn said:

I see the story as a rare event, but I have personally had experiences that others would deem miraculous, so I don't doubt, or insist on footnotes and sourcing in order to believe such stories.

Indeed. In many ways, reactions to stories such as this often reveal more about an individual's personal experiences than anything else. These personal experiences create a matrix of expectations that frames what we tend to deem 'credible' or 'incredible' from others.

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