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Am I a naughty Mormon boy if I like Nietzsche?


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8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Nietzsche hated Christianity because he did not understand Christ as a heroic figure. He saw a weak man who loved the stupid masses and who allowed himself to be crucified by the Romans, whom he saw as strong.

He did not see the Christ of the resurrection who overcame the world and controlled life and death itself, and who wanted all his followers to do likewise. ...

As a German, he was reading the Greek/classical tragedy version.

Had he simply read a version of the good news intended specifically for his people, he might have seen the heroic figure that was there all the time. 

After that, the NT might carry more meaning for such a reader.

Edited by hagoth7
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3 hours ago, Calm said:

And why would that be?  Iow, please explain what you mean for the bolded "why".

Just going off what Strappinglad said. I think that is what most churches say about us. And I put two and two together. And then Mfbukowksi's comment about fundamentalist Christians, and the different beliefs. And at one time our church didn't call themselves Christians. Am I not right?

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Just going off what Strappinglad said. I think that is what most churches say about us. And I put two and two together. And then Mfbukowksi's comment about fundamentalist Christians, and the different beliefs. And at one time our church didn't call themselves Christians. Am I not right?

I think you need to reread what strappinglad said.  He was saying without Christ, there is no reward even if we managed somehow to resurrect ourselves.  He is in no way suggesting we could resurrect ourselves.

And no, at no time did our church not call ourselves Christians as far as I am aware. There is a difference between rejecting inclusion into traditional/creedal Christianity and rejecting the label of Christian.

Strapping:  "Do I have the power within myself to resurrect myself? Do I have the power within myself to atone for my own sins? I have heard that those who refuse the atoning power of Christ will have to suffer , even as Christ, and pay every last penny in order to satisfy Justice. Even after all that suffering, what will be the reward? What Kingdom will they enter? I know we have always pushed self reliance , but this stuff seems a stretch. I have constantly been told to rely on the Savior. Should I stop doing that ?"

You seem quite certain we once rejected the label "Christian".  I would like you to find a reference for that, CFR please.

Edited by Calm
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12 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

Thanks for all the great responses! I was curious though if anyone saw some affinities to the Book of Mormon antichrist Korihor, as Korihor's insistence on relying on Christ seemed foolish, which it seems like Nietzsche wasn't too keen on either.

Of course not, given the apostate and ridiculous notions about Jesus which dominate normative Christianity.  God himself rejects such phony Christianity, as He told young Joseph in the woods.  Nietzsche was very perceptive.

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10 hours ago, Calm said:

I think you need to reread what strappinglad said.  He was saying without Christ, there is no reward even if we managed somehow to resurrect ourselves.  He is in no way suggesting we could resurrect ourselves.

And no, at no time did our church not call ourselves Christians as far as I am aware. There is a difference between rejecting inclusion into traditional/creedal Christianity and rejecting the label of Christian.

Strapping:  "Do I have the power within myself to resurrect myself? Do I have the power within myself to atone for my own sins? I have heard that those who refuse the atoning power of Christ will have to suffer , even as Christ, and pay every last penny in order to satisfy Justice. Even after all that suffering, what will be the reward? What Kingdom will they enter? I know we have always pushed self reliance , but this stuff seems a stretch. I have constantly been told to rely on the Savior. Should I stop doing that ?"

You seem quite certain we once rejected the label "Christian".  I would like you to find a reference for that, CFR please.

 

I don't remember growing up calling myself a Christian, just Mormon. I remembered reading early church leaders' thoughts and feelings about Christians. So I googled just now and got the quotes that may or may not answer your CFR. It seems that it's only been in the last twenty years or so that we refer to ourselves as Christians vs. other labels, maybe because of the quotes below, or I'm wrong. My husband said on his mission they called themselves Christian.

I'm not saying the leaders aren't Christian, just that they segregated themselves from Christians.

I don't know why the text c/p'd is underlined. I'm not on my laptop just my Kindle, so having trouble.

If my mind twisted it and I got the wrong impression then I'll rescind my statement.

ETA: These quotes were collected to prove the church is referring to the Catholic church as the great and abominable church. But I found them useful to show the early church leaders' feelings about the other Christian faiths. And I wonder if that's why we don't commonly refer ourselves as a Christian, but as LDS.


Joseph Smith History 1:18-20:

"My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong) and which I should join."

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. He again forbade me to join with any of them;..."

2. The Doctine and Covenants also has Jesus Christ condemning ALL other churches, and especially the "great and abominable church".

D&C 1:30-31
"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;"

D&C 38:10-11:
"Verily I say unto you, ye are clean, but not all; and there is none else with whom I am well pleased; For all flesh is corrupted before me; and the powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, among the children of men, in the presence of all the hosts of heaven"

D&C 29:21:
"And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire, according as it is spoken by the mouth of Ezekiel the prophet, who spoke of these things, which have not come to pass but surely must, as I live, for abominations shall not reign."

D&C 88:94:
"And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it."

3. The Church has a history of identifying the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church.

"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.'
- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811

"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God."
- Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!
- Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255

"A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."

"Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions."

"But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left."
- Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41

"How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations."

"She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346

"Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great" "The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned the great the mighty the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109

"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85

In that context, here's what the Book of Mormon says:

1 Nephi 13:5-6:
And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity. And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

1 Nephi 13:8:
And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.

1 Nephi 13:26:
And after they [the prophecies and testimonies of the Bible] go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

1 Nephi 13:28:
Wherefore, thou seest that after the book [the Bible] hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

1 Nephi 13:34:
...the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb [Bible] which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb.."

1 Nephi 14:3:
And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children,, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, said the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.

1 Nephi 14:9:
And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

1 Nephi 14:10-11:
And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

1 Nephi 14:12:
And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters [oceans]; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

1 Nephi 14:13:
And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

1 Nephi 14:15-16:
And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth. And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things.

1 Nephi 14:17:
And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

1 Nephi 22:13:
And the blood of that great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall turn upon their own heads; for they shall war among themselves, and the sword of their own hands shall fall upon their own heads, and they shall be drunken with their own blood.

1 Nephi 22:14:
And every nation which shall war against thee, O house of Israel, shall be turned one against another, and they shall fall into the pit which they digged to ensnare the people of the Lord. And all that fight against Zion shall be destroyed, and that great whore, who hath perverted the right ways of the Lord, yea, that great and abominable church, shall tumble to the dust and great shall be the fall of it.

2 Nephi 6:12:
And blessed are the Gentiles, they of whom the prophet has written; for behold, if it so be that they shall repent and fight not against Zion, and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church, they shall be saved; for the Lord God will fulfill his covenants which he has made unto his children; and for this cause the prophet has written things.

2 Nephi 10:16:
Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

2 Nephi 28:18:
But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof.




 


 
Edited by Tacenda
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Tacenda, not one of your quotes comes close to saying "we are not Christians" or "we don't want to call ourselves Christians".

I don't know where you got the impression from.  There are a very few members who seem to have made the choice to reject the label of "Christian" in terms of disliking how Christians are viewed by others these days from what I have seen, but I have never seen encouragement for this from a general leader or local one.

If you or another member wishes to reject the label "Christian" for whatever reason, that is your choice, but it is arrogance to insist the rest of us follow along when for many of us "Christian" meaning "follower of Christ" is part of our core identity and we believe the LDS faith is our best path to seek Christ out.

Choosing to use LDS is not a rejection of "Christian" as "Saint" is a variation on that theme meaning we have chosen to be sanctified through Christ.

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Sanctification

"Sanctification is the process of becoming a saint, holy and spiritually clean and pure, by purging all sin from the soul. Latter-day Saint scriptures mention several factors that make sanctification possible.

First is the Atonement of Jesus Christ (D&C 76:41-42;88:18; Moro. 10:33; Alma 13:11). Christ's blood sanctifies God's repentant children by washing them clean in a way that extends beyond the remission of sins at baptism. This cleansing is given through grace to all who "love and serve God" (D&C 20:31). "For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified" (Moses 6:60; cf. 1 John 5:8)."

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21 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

So I recently read Nietzsche's work "The Birth of Tragedy". I actually quite liked how he discusses living an authentic life and embracing the chaotic reality of struggle and suffering. However he also strikes me as a German Korihor with his discussion about relying completely on the self. I was curious what those here on this board who are philosophically inclined think of Nietzsche. Is he hazardous to spiritual health? Or can something be gained from studying him?

I personally find Nietzsche valuable to read and consider, but I'd hope if you decide you enjoy reading him and do more study that you take him seriously in total. It isn't a buffet one gets to fill their plate from of the things they like while ignoring the things they don't. It's a choreographed planned meal where each course is necessary to the overall experience. Or to change metaphors, one doesn't get to pick the flowers of his thought without accepting they were grown out of the hard roots of his thinking.

There are serious contradictions in Nietzsche's thinking that Mormonism can't accommodate. The biggest is likely the belief in a world that exists beyond the here and now. You've read The Birth of Tragedy so you know that. The belief he would have accepted Mormonism if he had understood it is fatally flawed out of the gate because it contradicts the basis of his entire philosophy. One has to accept not only that he argues one accept, even embrace reality in all its terrible forms. One has to accept this is all there is. If you believe there is a celestial world, that there was a garden of Eden, that the path to godhood is found in following the rules given to you in a book or spoken to you by a man who claims to be the spokesperson for the divine then you have killed God in the way Nietzsche really said that famous phrase. His proposed path to the overman isn't found in following rules given you. It comes from engaging the real world, facing what one finds there, and not being subservient to the will of others. Isn't Mormonism all about casting off the natural man and becoming like a child to the will of God? And that will is made known to you not out of your own heart, desires, will but in the words of those claiming authority to speak for God?

Frankly, I suspect Nietzsche would view the person who chooses Mormonism as their framework for understanding the world and developing themselves as enslaved.

How do you avoid that?

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As far as it only being the last twenty years...you haven't been paying attention:

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Christians_and_Christianity

"President Spencer W. Kimball said, "There can be no real and true Christianity, even with good works, unless we are deeply and personally committed to the reality of Jesus Christ as the Only Begotten Son of the Father who bought us, who purchased us in the great act of Atonement" (Kimball, p. 68). He also expressed the hope that all would come to realize that every LDS prayer, hymn, and sermon is centered in the Lord Jesus Christ. "We are true followers of Jesus Christ; and we hope the world will finally come to the conclusion that we are Christians, if there are any in the world" (Kimball, p. 434)."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1984/01/we-are-christians-because?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1972/04/our-witness-to-the-world?lang=eng

"We are Christians. We want the whole world to know that we are. Sometimes we are accused of not being Christians, but such is not the case. In the words of the great prophet Nephi, “… we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.” (2 Ne. 25:26.) We look to Christ as the Author and Finisher of our faith. He is our Redeemer."

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No, he won't make you naughty.  But the Nietzsche faithful do suffer from occasional bouts of acute paranoia, see themselves as victims of witch hunts, etc.  You need to decide if you really want that in your life.  I wouldn't recommend it. 

;0)

Has it really been 4 years since we had that spot of fun?

--Erik

________________________________________

Mirror in the bathroom, recompense
For all my crimes of self defense
Cures you whisper make no sense
Drift gently into mental illness

--English Beat, 1980

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On 6/30/2017 at 1:37 PM, boblloyd91 said:

So I recently read Nietzsche's work "The Birth of Tragedy". I actually quite liked how he discusses living an authentic life and embracing the chaotic reality of struggle and suffering. However he also strikes me as a German Korihor with his discussion about relying completely on the self. I was curious what those here on this board who are philosophically inclined think of Nietzsche. Is he hazardous to spiritual health? Or can something be gained from studying him?

 I tend to think of Nietzsche as what Mormonism would be without God. But his controversial nature is pretty overstated. He gets taught at BYU after all. Back when I was maintaining my philosophy blog regularly we discussed him quite a bit. A good book if you are interested in him that arranges things in a more comprehensible fashion is Richard Schacht's Nietzsche. It's a fantastic book. There's a bit of a divide between how he's seen in the more analytic tradition versus the more continental tradition. Also be aware that there's a fair bit of controversy over to what degree one should include his notebooks as expressing his finished thought rather than his thinking. You get a very different Nietzsche when Will to Power, his notebooks published by his sister, are used rather than his main texts.

Nietzsche is interesting in some pretty key ways - particularly how he raises the specter of perspectives and how power is related to truth. Yet he's also very dated. Most philosophers and movements who use him tend to be selective and just pick out a few elements of his thought. I think there are reasonable ways to answer many of his charges but again he's worth reading for making you think more than being a place people finish thinking. As such he's a fantastic philosopher to teach to undergraduates who are encountering ideas for the first time. You'll not find contemporary philosophers taking him quite as seriously as other figures they tend to see as more productive for problems. So he's one of those figures who appears in undergraduate programs much more than graduate programs. (Which isn't to say there aren't still people getting PhD's focused on issues tied to Nietzsche)

A book I really enjoyed and is one of my more read books is the Penguin A Nietzsche Reader. It's just short paragraphs selected from his various works and poems. It's a fantastic little book to get you thinking though. 

Edited by clarkgoble
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7 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

The God of Nietzsche died in 1830.

The God of Nietzsche was the apostate God anyway. It was the God of the philosophers and the madman was just announcing his death. But the churches of the era weren't ready to hear it yet.

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48 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

 I tend to think of Nietzsche as what Mormonism would be without God. But his controversial nature is pretty overstated. He gets taught at BYU after all. Back when I was maintaining my philosophy blog regularly we discussed him quite a bit. A good book if you are interested in him that arranges things in a more comprehensible fashion is Richard Schacht's Nietzsche. It's a fantastic book. There's a bit of a divide between how he's seen in the more analytic tradition versus the more continental tradition. Also be aware that there's a fair bit of controversy over to what degree one should include his notebooks as expressing his finished thought rather than his thinking. You get a very different Nietzsche when Will to Power, his notebooks published by his sister, are used rather than his main texts.

Nietzsche is interesting in some pretty key ways - particularly how he raises the specter of perspectives and how power is related to truth. Yet he's also very dated. Most philosophers and movements who use him tend to be selective and just pick out a few elements of his thought. I think there are reasonable ways to answer many of his charges but again he's worth reading for making you think more than being a place people finish thinking. As such he's a fantastic philosopher to teach to undergraduates who are encountering ideas for the first time. You'll not find contemporary philosophers taking him quite as seriously as other figures they tend to see as more productive for problems. So he's one of those figures who appears in undergraduate programs much more than graduate programs. (Which isn't to say there aren't still people getting PhD's focused on issues tied to Nietzsche)

A book I really enjoyed and is one of my more read books is the Penguin A Nietzsche Reader. It's just short paragraphs selected from his various works and poems. It's a fantastic little book to get you thinking though. 

Awesome! Thanks for the book recommendations!

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50 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I'd say one of the key breaks Mormonism makes from traditional Christianity is the denial of a supernatural platonic world. There is no other world. There's just this one we must make into a celestial kingdom. That's not to say Mormonism doesn't have qualms with Nietzsche, but the rejection of the platonic world is a place we find common ground. As one of my favorite quips by Joseph said, "If I were sunk in the lowest pit of Nova Scotia, with the Rocky Mountains piled on me, I would hang on, exercise faith, and keep up good courage, and I would come out on top." That's a very Nietzschean take. A lot of how Mormonism conceives of Christianity is more in line with Nietzsche's conception of the superman or overman.

The big difference with Nietzsche is the place of selfishness. We think underneath all is love. So it is love, not will to power, that is ultimately constitutive of us. It's just that some mistake power for love. Yet I'm also quite sympathetic to Nietzsche's complaint that love, especially charity as done by churches, is often really a way of subjugating people rather than letting them learn self-sufficiency.

Interestingly we're discussing Adam Miller's Future Mormon over in a reading club at T&S. One of Adam's key views of grace is that accepting grace is to accept reality in all its terrible forms and accept that's all there is. To deny this (which we have the freedom to do) is to impede grace. D&C 93:24-25 can easily be taken to be teaching just that point.

The superman is able to create in a world without meaning by making meaning. I'm not sure that's as opposed to Mormon thought as you suggest. I think there's a very existential thread that runs through Mormonism, largely entailed by our rejection of creation ex nihilo. That is God is always already within a pre-existing world. God's choice is to make meaning. 

Where I think Nietzsche goes astray in that aspect of his existentialism is by not understanding togetherness nor love. Perhaps a character flaw from his personal life. Perhaps falling prey to the place of Hegel in 19th century thought, the master/slave relationship persists through Nietzsche's analysis even though he's often criticizing it. Something akin to Buber's I-thou relationship or Levinas' notion of ethics as a foundational ontology simply is alien to Nietzsche. It's a huge flaw in his thought even though he was otherwise extremely insightful. 

I think the natural man is more the notion of the slave morality that drags people down. But certainly we'd disagree with Nietzsche over what is slave morality or the morality of the superman consists of.

:clapping:

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On 6/30/2017 at 2:37 PM, boblloyd91 said:

So I recently read Nietzsche's work "The Birth of Tragedy". I actually quite liked how he discusses living an authentic life and embracing the chaotic reality of struggle and suffering. However he also strikes me as a German Korihor with his discussion about relying completely on the self. I was curious what those here on this board who are philosophically inclined think of Nietzsche. Is he hazardous to spiritual health? Or can something be gained from studying him?

Things can be gained from studying any philosopher. Also, living the gospel of Jesus Christ and embracing the utter need of His Atonement is the epitome of relying on one's self; especially since that is the only true way of overcoming all things. That includes all our weaknesses.

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2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I'd say one of the key breaks Mormonism makes from traditional Christianity is the denial of a supernatural platonic world. There is no other world. There's just this one we must make into a celestial kingdom. That's not to say Mormonism doesn't have qualms with Nietzsche, but the rejection of the platonic world is a place we find common ground. As one of my favorite quips by Joseph said, "If I were sunk in the lowest pit of Nova Scotia, with the Rocky Mountains piled on me, I would hang on, exercise faith, and keep up good courage, and I would come out on top." That's a very Nietzschean take. A lot of how Mormonism conceives of Christianity is more in line with Nietzsche's conception of the superman or overman.

The big difference with Nietzsche is the place of selfishness. We think underneath all is love. So it is love, not will to power, that is ultimately constitutive of us. It's just that some mistake power for love. Yet I'm also quite sympathetic to Nietzsche's complaint that love, especially charity as done by churches, is often really a way of subjugating people rather than letting them learn self-sufficiency.

Interestingly we're discussing Adam Miller's Future Mormon over in a reading club at T&S. One of Adam's key views of grace is that accepting grace is to accept reality in all its terrible forms and accept that's all there is. To deny this (which we have the freedom to do) is to impede grace. D&C 93:24-25 can easily be taken to be teaching just that point.

The superman is able to create in a world without meaning by making meaning. I'm not sure that's as opposed to Mormon thought as you suggest. I think there's a very existential thread that runs through Mormonism, largely entailed by our rejection of creation ex nihilo. That is God is always already within a pre-existing world. God's choice is to make meaning. 

Where I think Nietzsche goes astray in that aspect of his existentialism is by not understanding togetherness nor love. Perhaps a character flaw from his personal life. Perhaps falling prey to the place of Hegel in 19th century thought, the master/slave relationship persists through Nietzsche's analysis even though he's often criticizing it. Something akin to Buber's I-thou relationship or Levinas' notion of ethics as a foundational ontology simply is alien to Nietzsche. It's a huge flaw in his thought even though he was otherwise extremely insightful. 

I think the natural man is more the notion of the slave morality that drags people down. But certainly we'd disagree with Nietzsche over what is slave morality or the morality of the superman consists of.

Hi Clarkgoble.

I think you are repurposing Nieztche in ways that do damage to central aspects of his philosophy.

For starters, while one may say that Mormonism does not require a belief in Platonic worlds that's really not true in the sense that the Book of Abraham and the D&C describe the differences between telestial, terrestrial and celestial beings and worlds as degrees of perfection. How does one define perfection in form and inferiority of form in Mormonism without a type of Platonism? God is a platonic human. Celestial worlds are perfect forms of worlds like our that are currently telestial. When a being, object, or world becomes celestial is becomes a perfect version of whatever it's telestial form was. I'm sorry, but Mormonism is very much reliant on a true world theory in all of the doctrine. We've all come down from a perfect world (the pre-existence) to a fallen one in order to be tested, perfected, and return to the perfect world.

The big problem for Mormonism with Nietzsche remains avoiding taking the world as it is, instead substituting a belief that gives meaning to life that contradicts the obvious indifference of the universe to the human condition. It isn't equipping humanity with tools to face the cosmic existential crisis of purposeless existence. As F.N. said in A Will to Power regarding Christianity - "It granted man an absolute value, as opposed to his smallness and accidental occurrence in the flux of becoming and passing away.” This is even more the case with Mormonism where humankind is not just the creation of God's sixth day but His literal children for whom all creation was made and which are central to His work and glory.

As I said earlier, one can't take the flower and ignore the root. To become exhalted in Mormonism is almost directly contradictory to the path necessary to becoming an overman or overwoman. Nietzsche requires you face the world as it is and find meaning within. Mormonism is founded on the belief this is a fallen world which mirrors a perfect realm of God, perfect in form and attainable by mirroring the life of God as exemplified in beliefs about Jesus who was necessary as mediator because humanity is fallen and flawed.

There is so much damage done in this attempt, and even more odd is that it seems pointless. What does the Mormon gain in trying to pick and choose from the thinking of Nietzsche if it's only to try and find a thought here, a quote there that makes one feel good? He was a person, a flawed person at that, and he had thoughts which may or may not really be valid regarding informing us of better ways to live. Seriously, what's to be gained in ignoring him in total in order to crib a couple of frivolous interpretations of his thought it's impossible to imagine he'd agree with?

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7 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I don't think so. I'm of course not saying Mormonism is Nietzschean. But I thought I was clear that the central problem is over selfishness and power.

Hi Clarkgoble,

The above sentence leaves me flabbergasted. The above two items are central to everything Nietzsche had to say on the subject of self and will and to identify them as problems for aligning his views with Mormonism is basically noting they don't actually align. I am not sure how someone familiar with him could argue this and not see the conflict that single sentence contains. Power is derived from the realization of self through exertion of the will, the Will to Power being about selfishness and realization of being/power as virtue...I'm serious when I say it leaves me flabbergasted. It's somewhat like saying one enjoys football except for the passing and running of the football. So...you like just like to tailgate then? Again, my impression is that Mormonism may derive some satisfaction from stealing a quote here, repurposing a phrase or concept there from Nietzsche but it absolutely cannot take what he says seriously and in total. And by total I mean aligning with foundational arguments that form the support for his philosophy.

7 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

A celestial world is only celestial because celestial people live there. It's their way of being. Ditto for terrestrial. And of course this is now a telestial world so we're familiar with that. Ideally our homes should be celestial spaces. The temple typically is. So to treat the kingdoms ontologically as degrees of platonic purity really seems alien to the Mormon mindset. Again an other of Joseph's quips captures the essence of this quite well. "I see no faults in the Church, and therefore let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to hell, or go to any other place. And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it. Where this people are, there is good society."

Zion is where the zion people are..

A true world theory with N. is a belief in any concept of existence that takes the place of the one in which we find ourselves, a cold, indifferent, not-created-for-us cosmos. Mormonism absolutely is built on a true world theory. Again, I'm finding it flabbergasting that you can be familiar with Nietzsche and assert that Mormon cosmology is not in conflict with central aspects of his views.

Tangential to this, Mormonism absolutely defines the state of things as aspiring to perfect forms of the same thing. Your comment above also reconfirms this. A world that is telestial isn't something completely different in form from a celestial one. The celestial world is the perfect or "good" if you will world. Resurrected Gods and resurrected telestial human beings are different only by degree of perfection. I am not sure why that is inconvenient to accept?

Abraham 3 is explicitly noting this, for example -

16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.

17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it.

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

7 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I think you miss the fundamental existential aspect of Mormonism. Life has meaning because we grant it meaning. It has meaning to God and he's willing to share that meaning. But it's not intrinsically meaningful except to the degree we are willing to participate in the process of creation. But creation itself is making meaning. Again the fundamental transformation of Christianity by rejecting creation ex nihilo remains key to Mormon thought as does our ontological uncreated state. God finds himself among the intelligences and asks us to come here. This life is a process of discovering for ourself how meaningful we want life to be.

I can't agree less with this. The Mormon religion tells you what the meaning of life is, and this is the same for all people as dictated by the Church which claims it comes from God. It isn't about creating meaning out of the self which would include countless meanings, countless expressions of self. The true world theory of Mormonism is central to explaining this meaning. Mormonism has a name for this shared purpose to life and how the fallen world we are in fits into the true world theory - the plan of salvation. If a person intuits that there is something off with this approach they are not encouraged to look into their own will to reason and find out why, instead they are taught to conform and recognize truth is confirmed by being aligned with the leadership and scripture.

Central to the meaning of existence for Mormonism is the idea that justice must be satisfied. It's the core message of Alma 42, and is so compelling a force in Mormon cosmology that even God would cease to be God if justice were not fulfilled. Mosiah/King Benjamin confirms how indebted we are to Christ/God. Modern prophets remind bi-annually the importance of listening to them and coherence as a group found through shared morality, shared belief in life's purpose which was dictated to them not self-fulfilling.

Within sociology there is a theory called "identity capital theory", including theories about a shift in the role of society vs. the individual in terms of how one's identity gets defined.

Painting very broadly and coarse, the roles a person played in life have traditionally been provided to that person by the society, and one's identity capital (kind of like how much social currency one has accrued and how others respond to that currency) was largely based on how one behaved within those roles. In Mormonism one basically still finds this model. One has social milestones throughout life that one "hits" and others within the culture often view a person not solely as an individual but also in how one fulfilled or is fulfilling one of these roles. The easiest to grasp example is that around missionary service and marriage. Anyone familiar with LDS culture will ken how the first plays into the second and has an influence on outcomes within that are seen as part of one's identity even though to an outsider it has practically zero social currency.

The modern shift has been away from socially defined roles to ones where the individual is responsible to do things, learn things, go places, etc., and build identity capital on their own. There's no script. But there is still a very real sense of capital value in the social market. I think one thing many ex-Mormon's discover is that much of their efforts in building identity capital as Mormons has turned out to be as valuable as a Kirtland Anti-Bank Note. There was a reddit thread a while ago that served as a great example where a woman who had chosen motherhood and passed up her dreams of pursuing advanced education and a career in that field felt betrayed by having done what she thought she was supposed to do only to find out the foundational reasons for believing the authorities who said this were deeply flawed and being hidden from her by them.

This is getting long, and I doubt most people will read it in it's entirety anyway. Suffice it to say it appears to me that for the Mormon to attempt to make Mormon thought conform to Nietzsche's philosophy or align Nietzsche's philosophy to Mormonism requires distorting or hacking away at both to the point they are not recognizable. One only assumes one is still talking about Mormonism or about Nietzsche's philosophy because one began from that premise not because they remained consistent.

Edited by Honorentheos
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