Prophicide by Militia? (Carthage Jail)

[hagoth7]

Second, leading up to June of 1844, we are told that Joseph Smith intimated that his time was at hand.

The larger question is, did Joseph * intentionally* stir the pot  for that very outcome?

Some claim that Joseph was rash, foolhardy, or shortsighted in his choices during May and June of 1844.

I suggest there was more to things than that. That Joseph more likely provoked that final conflict...intentionally.

And that he had considerable prophetic cause to do so.

When it comes to Joseph in 1844, what do you believe: intentional? shortsighted? And what is your basis for that belief?

 

First, I consider that 1844 matter a corollary to a more central/important issue:

2,000 years ago, Jesus of Nazareth foretold how his mortal ministry would end. 

Knowing that, did the son of God set things in motion intentionally to bring that outcome to fulfillment? 

Was Calvary deicide/sacrifice by Sanhedrin/Herod? And what is your basis for *that* belief?

Edited June 22, 2017 by hagoth7

[RevTestament]

21 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

2,000 years ago, Jesus of Nazareth foretold how his mortal ministry would end. 

Knowing that, did the son of God set things in motion intentionally to bring that outcome to fulfillment? 

Was Calvary suicide/sacrifice by Sanhedrin/Herod? And what is your basis for *that* belief?

yes. 

Mark 10:45

45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ^aransom for many.

[strappinglad]

What do you make of the story that Joseph was headed away from the Saints to a safer location , when told he was ' cowardly/abandoning his people, and so decided to return? In war, commanders have been known to enter the battle quite sure they would not survive. Is that considered suicide, or an honorable death?

[Ouagadougou]

29 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Second, leading up to June of 1844, we are told that Joseph Smith intimated that his time was at hand.

The larger question is, did Joseph * intentionally* stir the pot  for that very outcome?

Some claim that Joseph was rash, foolhardy, or shortsighted in his choices during May and June of 1844.

I suggest there was more to things than that. That Joseph more likely provoked that final conflict...intentionally.

And that he had considerable prophetic cause to do so.

When it comes to Joseph in 1844, what do you believe: intentional? shortsighted? And what is your basis for that belief?

 

First, I consider that 1844 matter a corollary to a more central/important issue:

2,000 years ago, Jesus of Nazareth foretold how his mortal ministry would end. 

Knowing that, did the son of God set things in motion intentionally to bring that outcome to fulfillment? 

Was Calvary suicide/sacrifice by Sanhedrin/Herod? And what is your basis for *that* belief?

Couldn't JS have been drunk as well?  Weren't they drinking wine in jail?  

[Calm]

How much wine does it take to make one drunk?  Four men, one bottle iirc.

Besides that though, what does drinking wine once in jail have to do with how he ended up there in the first place?

[Jude2]

This just seems like a really dumb question with the idea of taking away Joseph's standing as a martyr.   

[hagoth7]

4 hours ago, strappinglad said:

What do you make of the story that Joseph was headed away from the Saints to a safer location , when told he was ' cowardly/abandoning his people, and so decided to return?

1. By way of context, he supposedly also told some that he knew he would not be part of the westward exodus...

2. And I take the gist of what you mention to mean, from his own words, that he valued their lives more dear than his own.

Add those two together, and it creates a different texture for the culminating events of 1844.

What do you make of it?

4 hours ago, strappinglad said:

In war, commanders have been known to enter the battle quite sure they would not survive. Is that considered suicide, or an honorable death?

Both.

Thoughts?

Edited June 22, 2017 by hagoth7

[Bobbieaware]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

How much wine does it take to make one drunk?  Four men, one bottle iirc.

Besides that though, what does drinking wine once in jail have to do with how he ended up there in the first place?

The prophet drinking wine after he was jailed has nothing to do with how ended up in jail. It simply  provides an opportunity for an embittered opponent of the LDS Church to make a sarcastic remark about two brothers who were about to be brutally murdered by a lawless mob. Fools mock, but they shall mourn.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

...Weren't they drinking wine in jail?  

I'm focusing on events *leading up to* Carthage.

Or, are you suggesting that because of a single farewell drink, Joseph was such a sot prior to Carthage that he couldn't reason in Nauvou?

If so, sorry. Can't follow you there. 

 

(Remember, there were deliberations in town council regarding what should be done in response to the press, etc.)

Edited June 22, 2017 by hagoth7

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, hagoth7 said:

Second, leading up to June of 1844, we are told that Joseph Smith intimated that his time was at hand.

The larger question is, did Joseph * intentionally* stir the pot  for that very outcome?

Some claim that Joseph was rash, foolhardy, or shortsighted in his choices during May and June of 1844.

I suggest there was more to things than that. That Joseph more likely provoked that final conflict...intentionally.

And that he had considerable prophetic cause to do so.

When it comes to Joseph in 1844, what do you believe: intentional? shortsighted? And what is your basis for that belief?

 

First, I consider that 1844 matter a corollary to a more central/important issue:

2,000 years ago, Jesus of Nazareth foretold how his mortal ministry would end. 

Knowing that, did the son of God set things in motion intentionally to bring that outcome to fulfillment? 

Was Calvary suicide/sacrifice by Sanhedrin/Herod? And what is your basis for *that* belief?

So I suppose you might say the prophet firing a pistol at his attackers had less to do with defending himself and his brethren against the raging mob and more to do with further enraging the mob to assure his death?

Edited June 22, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[hagoth7]

3 hours ago, Jude2 said:

This just seems like a really dumb question with the idea of taking away Joseph's standing as a martyr.   

? Are you responding to the OP?

If so, you've gravely misunderstood my meaning. 180 degrees.

A glimpse of how I actually view Joseph:

Here

 and 

Here

Edited June 22, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

...the prophet firing a pistol at his attackers had less to do with defending himself and his brethren against the raging mob and more to do with further enraging the mob to assure his death?

No. 

If young, brave witnesses can be believed (and I believe they can),  a large number of angry men had already vowed to take Joseph's life, and had been convinced they would be doing God and/or country a favor for doing so. (A passage with the word gudstjeneste comes to mind -  ...NT context.)

Edited June 22, 2017 by hagoth7

[Ouagadougou]

41 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

I'm focusing on events *leading up to* Carthage.

Or, are you suggesting that because of a single farewell drink, Joseph was such a sot prior to Carthage that he couldn't reason in Nauvou?

If so, sorry. Can't follow you there. 

 

(Remember, there were deliberations in town council regarding what should be done in response to the press, etc.)

"alcoholic beverages contain a single substance of medical importance, ethanol. It is a depressant of the nervous system. Ethanol interferes with learning, impairs judgment and disturbs the ability to reason."

https://www.lds.org/liahona/1983/10/tobacco-and-alcohol-associated-with-several-diseases?lang=eng&clang=mam

In a court of law, it would most likely come up that JS had alcohol in his system, IMO.

[Bobbieaware]

23 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

No.

If young brave witnesses can be believed, and I believe they can, men had already vowed to take his life, and had been convinced they would be doing God and country a favor for doing so. (A NT passage with the Danish word gudstjeneste comes to mind -  will let someone else find the English equivalent chapter/verse.)

So then, you don't subscribe to the idea that the prophet was committing suicide?

 

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

...the prophet was committing [prophicide]?

Yes.

I believe Joseph intentionally/willingly jumped on a grenade....absorbed the lion's share  of an angry mob.

And to some degree, I am beginning to believe that prior to that, he knowingly pulled the pin.

And that he had prophetic reason for doing both.

Call it what you will. Whatever you call it, I don't believe it was a selfish ending.

Edited June 22, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

30 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

"...interferes with learning, impairs judgment and disturbs the ability to reason."

That is true of many things.

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

"alcoholic beverages contain a single substance of medical importance, ethanol. It is a depressant of the nervous system. Ethanol interferes with learning, impairs judgment and disturbs the ability to reason."

https://www.lds.org/liahona/1983/10/tobacco-and-alcohol-associated-with-several-diseases?lang=eng&clang=mam

In a court of law, it would most likely come up that JS had alcohol in his system, IMO.

When?  At the time of his death?

If so, why would it matter?

Are you suggesting that if he was cold stone sober events would have been different?

Edited June 22, 2017 by Calm

[USU78]

4 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

"alcoholic beverages contain a single substance of medical importance, ethanol. It is a depressant of the nervous system. Ethanol interferes with learning, impairs judgment and disturbs the ability to reason."

https://www.lds.org/liahona/1983/10/tobacco-and-alcohol-associated-with-several-diseases?lang=eng&clang=mam

In a court of law, it would most likely come up that JS had alcohol in his system, IMO.

Which is utterly inapposite to the issue raised in the OP, n'est-ce pas?

[Gray]

Didn't he call for the Nauvoo militia to rescue him? I don't think his ideal outcome was his own death, but he seemed willing to risk it.

[CV75]

8 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Second, leading up to June of 1844, we are told that Joseph Smith intimated that his time was at hand.

The larger question is, did Joseph * intentionally* stir the pot  for that very outcome?

Some claim that Joseph was rash, foolhardy, or shortsighted in his choices during May and June of 1844.

I suggest there was more to things than that. That Joseph more likely provoked that final conflict...intentionally.

And that he had considerable prophetic cause to do so.

When it comes to Joseph in 1844, what do you believe: intentional? shortsighted? And what is your basis for that belief?

 

First, I consider that 1844 matter a corollary to a more central/important issue:

2,000 years ago, Jesus of Nazareth foretold how his mortal ministry would end. 

Knowing that, did the son of God set things in motion intentionally to bring that outcome to fulfillment? 

Was Calvary deicide/sacrifice by Sanhedrin/Herod? And what is your basis for *that* belief?

I think both Joseph ("deep water is what I am wont to swim in") and Jesus ("the Son of man hath not where to lay his head... My kingdom is not of this world") comprehended the pot they had voluntarily entered and submitted to (both instinctively and intentionally).

Edited June 22, 2017 by CV75

[RevTestament]

5 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Yes.

I believe Joseph intentionally/willingly jumped on a grenade....absorbed the lion's share  of an angry mob.

And to some degree, I am beginning to believe that prior to that, he knowingly pulled the pin.

And that he had prophetic reason for doing both.

Call it what you will. Whatever you call it, I don't believe it was a selfish ending.

Jumping out the window to try to save his life does not exactly correspond to your interpretation of things. 

However, deciding to destroy the printing press was a bit rash - I'll grant you that.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Jude2 said:

This just seems like a really dumb question with the idea of taking away Joseph's standing as a martyr.   

The New Testament argues that Jesus went to the cross willingly, even forcing the powers that be to kill him.  Does this mean that he was not a true martyr?

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Jumping out the window...does not exactly correspond to your interpretation of things. 

In 1844, that window was supposedly smaller and higher up than it is now. Truman Madsen explained that Joseph's self-defenestration was something that actually required great effort/intent to accomplish.

More importantly, outside that window stood the assembled body of the armed/shooting mob.

So Joseph didn't run *away* from the line of fire. After Hyrum's death, Joseph instead rushed immediately *towards* their guns.

Doesn't at all sound like coward's work to me.

Sounds more like Joseph willingly leapt to absorb the concussion of the mob's fierce grenade. To shield and draw their angry fire away from his friends. No greater love.

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

...deciding to destroy the printing press was a bit rash...

Or was it instead *very* deliberate?

When Joseph's body was returned to Nauvou, something odd happened. The wife of the man who had reportedly sided with Joseph to advocate for the printing press' destruction (in clear violation of most constitutions) then publicly stood at Joseph's head alongside Emma, shaking as she wept. For years, their family and the Smiths were dear friends. 

What really was said among several friends leading up to that City Council beyond what was recorded? I am certain there were more prophetic workings involved in those CIty Council deliberations than some yet realize.

So:

1. Joseph and closest friends worked together, in ways that stoked the coals of resentment among Joseph's sworn enemies.

2. Joseph and Hyrum then determined to return and make a stand at Carthage, resigned to their lot.

3. And the Smith brothers then stood/leapt into harm's way, absorbing the brunt of the conflict.

Rash cowardice?

Or something quite different.

Edited June 22, 2017 by hagoth7

[Robert F. Smith]

28 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

..............................................................

Hoo-rah and semper fi, brothers !!

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Didn't he call for the Nauvoo militia to rescue him? I don't think his ideal outcome was his own death, but he seemed willing to risk it.

I think he always knew his death was coming.
I don't think he knew for certain when.

If you knew from God you were going to be killed but you weren't told when, would you stop trying to preserve your life immediately?