How wild can Sunday school get?

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

If the shoe fits...

I get it. The great, amorphous all the bad guys church snuck in and changed the scriptures right under our noses. It must be all those different Protestant versions...

But the shoe doesn't fit if you consider 1 Nephi 14:9,10

Quote

And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.  And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil...

If there are save 2 churches and the Catholic Church is the great and abominable, then that suggest that every one who is not Catholic (including non-Christians) belongs to the church of the Lamb of God.  That is obviously not what we believe.

The church of the Lamb of God is not the Mormon Church and the church of the devil is not the catholic church.  Neither of these 2 churches mentioned are earthly organizations, though their influence is found in probably all organizations.  There are Mormons who do not belong to the church of the Lamb of God and there are Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu's, and secularists who do belong to the church of the Lamb - they are those who heed the light that they have been given.

That is the gospel according to Pogi anyway. 

 

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Time to pile onto Rev and shame him into submission. I hold my beliefs. I know the modern Church holds the new position dear to its heart, and won't listen to anything else because well ,,, living prophets are always right, and know more than dead ones. I have lots to do today, so everyone pile on.

As I said in my story, this is a hill I decided to die on, Rev. The Catholic church, just like us, is about the people in it. There is no worse smear than assigning millions of people to the devil. It's just not right. That is what is done to us, I can't quietly listen to it done to others by one of us. 

[bluebell]

48 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Like? Can you be more specific? Make your case.

Pogi has already brought up one issue.  

Another issue is that Christ taught that the devil cannot bring about any good.  A house divided cannot stand, and satan cannot do good for any reason, even to try to bring about something evil.

The Catholic church does good, and they do bring people to Christ, so they cannot be the Satan's church.

[thesometimesaint]

We never claimed prophets are infallible, quite the opposite.

[ksfisher]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The Catholic church does good, and they do bring people to Christ, so they cannot be the Satan's church.

So what if, because of being raised in Church X and growing up believing what it teaches, when a person hears the restored gospel they reject it?  What if Church X teaches its members to reject the Mormon missionaries?  Is not that church then being used to Satan to accomplish his purpose of keeping people from the true church? 

[thesometimesaint]

23 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

So what if, because of being raised in Church X and growing up believing what it teaches, when a person hears the restored gospel they reject it?  What if Church X teaches its members to reject the Mormon missionaries?  Is not that church then being used to Satan to accomplish his purpose of keeping people from the true church? 

That's a stretch. Everyone will have the full knowledge opportunity to accept of reject the full Restored Gospel either in this life or the next.

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

So what if, because of being raised in Church X and growing up believing what it teaches, when a person hears the restored gospel they reject it?  What if Church X teaches its members to reject the Mormon missionaries?  Is not that church then being used to Satan to accomplish his purpose of keeping people from the true church? 

If the Catholic Church is not the GandA just as our current church teachings teach, is the early LDS Church being used by Satan because it had teachings that are now preventing members from more fully accepting our current prophets as having and using revelation to lead the Church rather than choices based on PR and thus impeding their openness to continuing revelation when it comes by creating significant doubt about revealed changes?

 

[Alan]

2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

I went through the Temple endowment presentation the first time in 1972. It made no reference to  the RC church.

It certainly made reference to the Pope as part of Lucifer's kingdom.

[RevTestament]

49 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Pogi has already brought up one issue.  

Another issue is that Christ taught that the devil cannot bring about any good.  A house divided cannot stand, and satan cannot do good for any reason, even to try to bring about something evil.

The Catholic church does good, and they do bring people to Christ, so they cannot be the Satan's church.

I thought the Church taught that everyone on earth has some good in them? Does that mean the devil is not on the earth then?

He's not in the churches which speak franganese or some such unknown tongue? Who exactly are these people listening to then?

[Calm]

"

The phrase "great and abominable church," which appears in an apocalyptic vision received by the Book of Mormon prophet Nephi ₁ in the sixth century B.C. (1 Ne. 13:6), refers to the church of the devil and is understood by Latter-day Saints to be equivalent to the "great whore that sitteth upon many waters" described in Revelation 17:1. This "whore of all the earth" is identified by Nephi's brother Jacob as all those who are against God and who fight against Zion, in all periods of time (2 Ne. 10:16). Nephi did not write a detailed account of everything he saw in the vision, as this responsibility was reserved for John the apostle, who was to receive the same vision; however, Nephi repeatedly refers to its content and teachings, using various images and phrases (1 Ne. 13:4-9, 26-27, 34;14:1-4, 9-17).

Like John, Nephi and Jacob describe persecutions that evil people will inflict on God's people, particularly in the last days. The angel who explained the vision to Nephi emphasized that this great and abominable church would take away from the Bible and "the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord" (1 Ne. 13:26), causing men to "stumble" and giving Satan "great power" over them (1 Ne. 13:29; D&C 86:3; Robinson, "Early Christianity," p. 188). Though many Protestants, following the lead of Martin Luther, have linked this evil force described in Revelation 17 with the Roman Catholic church, the particular focus of these LDS and New Testament scriptures seems rather to be on earlier agents of apostasy in the Jewish and Christian traditions (see A. Clarke, Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 6, pp. 1036-38, Nashville, Tenn., 1977).

When Nephi speaks typologically rather than historically, he identifies all the enemies of the Saints with the church of the devil (1 Ne. 14:9-10; 2 Ne. 10:16). They are those from all nations and all time periods who desire "to get gain, and…power over the flesh, and…to become popular in the eyes of the world,…who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity" (1 Ne. 22:23). Other scriptural terms related to the great and abominable church include "Babylon" and the "great harlot" (Rev. 17:5; 1 Ne. 22:13; D&C 1:16). Images of pride, greed, and covenant abandonment are associated with these terms, in sharp contrast to the church of God. The scriptures are consistent in warning people to flee from the church of evil and find refuge in the church of God (Jer. 51:6; Rev. 18:4; 1 Ne. 20:20; D&C 133:14; see also P. Minear, "Babylon," in Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, 1:338, Nashville, Tenn., 1962). The Book of Mormon image of a great and abominable church complements the biblical images of Babylon and the harlot.

The fate of the great and abominable church is described in both ancient and modern scriptures (Jer. 51:37; Rev. 18:21; 1 Ne. 14:15-16;22:14; D&C 1:16): Though the nations of the earth will gather together against them, "the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth" are promised redemption even if it requires power sent down from heaven, as if by fire (1 Ne. 14:14;22:17). When Jesus Christ returns, he will claim his own and reject those who have opposed him (Mal. 4:1-3; 2 Thes. 2:6-10; 1 Ne. 22:23-26; see Jesus Christ: Second Coming of Jesus Christ). As the Savior institutes his millennial reign, great will be the fall of Babylon, the harlot, and the great and abominable church (Rev. 18; 2 Ne. 28:18), for every knee will bow and every tongue confess, with thankfulness, that Jesus is the Christ (Isa. 45:23; Mosiah 27:31)."

[Calm]

Editing issues, this continues the above...

If the GaA has existed in all times, it can't be the RC

If the GaA has dominion over all the earth, it can't be the RC:

"she had dominion over ^ball the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people"

At what point in history has any church, let alone the RC Church had dominion over all the earth, among all nations?  

If it is the RC, then all other churches and organizations are the Church of the Lamb?  Makes no sense

Edited June 22, 2017 by Calm

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

As I said in my story, this is a hill I decided to die on, Rev. The Catholic church, just like us, is about the people in it. There is no worse smear than assigning millions of people to the devil. It's just not right. That is what is done to us, I can't quietly listen to it done to others by one of us. 

So the devil is not on the earth then? He had nothing to do with the apostasy right? The Lord did that all by Himself? If you believe that you might just die on that hill juliann.

[ksfisher]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

If the Catholic Church is not the GandA just as our current church teachings teach, is the early LDS Church being used by Satan because it had teachings that are now preventing members from more fully accepting our current prophets as having and using revelation to lead the Church rather than choices based on PR and thus impeding their openness to continuing revelation when it comes by creating significant doubt about revealed changes?

 

Like I said, "what if." 

And I didn't use the word Catholic in my post because I don't believe any one church/organization is what is being written about in scripture.

Edited June 22, 2017 by ksfisher

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

But the shoe doesn't fit if you consider 1 Nephi 14:9,10

If there are save 2 churches and the Catholic Church is the great and abominable, then that suggest that every one who is not Catholic (including non-Christians) belongs to the church of the Lamb of God.  That is obviously not what we believe.

The church of the Lamb of God is not the Mormon Church and the church of the devil is not the catholic church.  Neither of these 2 churches mentioned are earthly organizations, though their influence is found in probably all organizations.  There are Mormons who do not belong to the church of the Lamb of God and there are Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu's, and secularists who do belong to the church of the Lamb - they are those who heed the light that they have been given.

That is the gospel according to Pogi anyway. 
 

So in your gospel all the other Churches are the LDS Church? And the amorphous bad guys church is the rest of the world? I'm not sure if the living prophets will agree even with that. 

Have you considered that the mother church of Revelation and her daughters are one in the same as far as the Lord is concerned?

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I thought the Church taught that everyone on earth has some good in them? Does that mean the devil is not on the earth then?

It means he has influence as it is given to him, not that they have chosen to follow him with their hearts and mind just as the Saints of the Church of the Lamb choose to follow God with their hearts and minds.

[Calm]

Edited because I should know better...

Edited June 22, 2017 by Calm

[bluebell]

48 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

So what if, because of being raised in Church X and growing up believing what it teaches, when a person hears the restored gospel they reject it?  What if Church X teaches its members to reject the Mormon missionaries?  Is not that church then being used to Satan to accomplish his purpose of keeping people from the true church? 

Lots of things can be used by satan to accomplish his purposes, that doesn't mean those things belong to satan though, right?

If someone's Christian family, who sincerely tries to follow Christ every single day, teaches them to reject the mormon missionaries, does that mean that family is The Family of the Devil?

Of course not.

[RevTestament]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Editing issues, this continues the above...

If the GaA has existed in all times, it can't be the RC

In scripture, Babylon became symbolic of the opposition to God's truth. So yeah, it has existed on other worlds, and will exist on the next.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:85

85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the ^adesolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the ^bfirst elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall ^ccall them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not ^dclean from the blood of this generation.

[RevTestament]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

It means he has influence as it is given to him, not that they have chosen to follow him with their hearts and mind just as the Saints of the Church of the Lamb choose to follow God with their hearts and minds.

So the devil can exist in a church and lead them astray into apostasy? Introduce false teachings and such?

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I thought the Church taught that everyone on earth has some good in them? Does that mean the devil is not on the earth then?

He's not in the churches which speak franganese or some such unknown tongue? Who exactly are these people listening to then?

You're illustrating how nuanced the verses in question are.  And they are much much too nuanced for it to ever make sense to say that the Church of the Devil = the Catholic church.

There are members of the LDS church who belong to the Church of the Devil and there are members of other church's who belong to the Church of the Lamb.  It's a question of who has your heart, as Robinson says, not who has your records.  It's not about having a little good or a little bad in you, it's about who you belong to and who you actively seek to follow.  Those who are of the church of the devil actively seek to do evil.

The Catholic church is not actively, as an institution, seeking to do evil.  They seek to do good.  They seek to follow Christ.  Even if we believe they don't always succeed, that doesn't mean they belong to the Devil.

Edited June 22, 2017 by bluebell

[mnn727]

SO, can we get back to the topic which I believe is Sunday School?

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Like I said, "what if." 

And I didn't use the word Catholic in my post because I don't believe any one church/organization is what is being written about in scripture.

I did not suggest you did use Catholic.  I was pointing out where that type of reasoning led to...any Church, including the LDS one, that taught things that impede people's full acceptance of the Gospel and those who are authorized to do God's Will on earth today would be the GandA if being used by Satan in any way.

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I did not suggest you did use Catholic.  I was pointing out where that type of reasoning led to...any Church, including the LDS one, that taught things that impede people's full acceptance of the Gospel and those who are authorized to do God's Will on earth today would be the GandA if being used by Satan in any way.

But it does seem as if both Nephi and John, in the visions they were given, saw an organization or a collection or organizations that Satan was using to keep people from Christ. 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

In scripture, Babylon became symbolic of the opposition to God's truth. So yeah, it has existed on other worlds, and will exist on the next.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:85

85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the ^adesolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the ^bfirst elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall ^ccall them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not ^dclean from the blood of this generation.

And so how does this justifying naming the RC since it certainly hasn't existed in other times, on other worlds?

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

But it does seem as if both Nephi and John, in the visions they were given, saw an organization or a collection or organizations that Satan was using to keep people from Christ. 

And our leaders today teach this is not the RC Church, but something quite different:

"Emphasize that the great and abominable church is a symbol of apostasy in all its forms. It is a representation of all false doctrine, false worship, and irreligious attitudes. It does not represent any specific church in the world today."

https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual/lesson-4-the-things-which-i-saw-while-i-was-carried-away-in-the-spirit?lang=eng&_r=1

Satan attempts to use every single organization man has come up with to further his goal to interfere with God's work.  In a particular moment, that may be a particular organization, but if it then moves away from his influence and towards God, it cannot be said to be the GandA in any real sense.  At worse, it has been for that time a tool, usually unwitting as well.

If the teaching of the RC is the GandA is false doctrine, then promoting it falls under the GandA category.  But I would never suggest anyone here actually belongs to the GandA.

There may be organizations out there that are so void of any principle that leads to God that they could be said to be a physical manifestation of the GandA, but I suspect they are few and far between.  However, there are plenty of ideas out there being promoted in every corner of the world, including imo within the walls of LDS churches which, if we let them root in our hearts and become our leading principles, will cause us to become part of the GandA no matter where we sit on Sunday.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Calm