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2 hours ago, Calm said:

How do you explain Kirtland and Missouri?

Many early converts, including Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, and Lyman Johnson, recorded that Joseph Smith was teaching plural marriage privately as early as 1831 or 1832. Pratt reported that Smith told early members in 1831 and 1832 that plural marriage was a true principle, but that the time to practise it had not yet arrived. Johnson also claimed to have heard the doctrine from Smith in 1831. I believe that this is all shoved over the rug today as unimportant. I'm sure that area ministers soon got wind of such strange doctrine. The Mormons seem to have flooded into Kirtland and then began excluding the original settlers --- making it hard for them to earn a living at anything if not Mormon.

Edited by LittleNipper

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Can you demonstrate this was public knowledge at all or behind the persecution that required the Saints to leave Kirtland and Missouri?  Given the very public nature of the discord in Missouri, evidence of condemnation of plural marriage at the time should be easy to find.

Your last sentence doesn't make any sense.

Edited by Calm

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Can you demonstrate this was public knowledge at all or behind the persecution that required the Saints to leave Kirtland and Missouri?  Given the very piblic nature of the disco red in Missouri, evidence of condemnation of plural marriage at the time should be easy to find.

Your last sentence doesn't make any sense.  [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

Auto Complete/Auto Correct Strikes again? :vader: 

;):D 

P.S.: Is this disco red?

The groom suit leisure red suit three-piece suit crime (coat + pants + vest)

Edited by Kenngo1969

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Thanks for bringing that weirdness to my attention...second one, undoubtedly; but I suspect the first one must have been mine somehow.

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1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Auto Complete/Auto Correct Strikes again? :vader: 

;):D 

P.S.: Is this disco red?

The groom suit leisure red suit three-piece suit crime (coat + pants + vest)

No, it's Chinese Red!

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4 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

You may wish to consider New Jersey! :lol:

Yes, but then we are left with a choice between living in New Jersey and apostasizing and going to hell. I think I would flip a coin at that point.

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1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

Many early converts, including Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, and Lyman Johnson, recorded that Joseph Smith was teaching plural marriage privately as early as 1831 or 1832. Pratt reported that Smith told early members in 1831 and 1832 that plural marriage was a true principle, but that the time to practise it had not yet arrived. Johnson also claimed to have heard the doctrine from Smith in 1831. I believe that this is all shoved over the rug today as unimportant. I'm sure that area ministers soon got wind of such strange doctrine. The Mormons seem to have flooded into Kirtland and then began excluding the original settlers --- making it hard for them to earn a living at anything if not Mormon.

If the local ministers had plural marriage on their side they would have been a lot louder about it.

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Can you demonstrate this was public knowledge at all or behind the persecution that required the Saints to leave Kirtland and Missouri?  Given the very public nature of the discord in Missouri, evidence of condemnation of plural marriage at the time should be easy to find.

Your last sentence doesn't make any sense.

In other words, their  (the Mormons) economic cohesion allowed the Mormons to dominate local economies. I can honestly say, that I would be Highly upset, had I learned that a religion was promoting polygamy. And the ones benefiting from such a social "norm" are men. Note that Mormon women were never allowed to have multiple husbands as was/is true among various non-Christian groups in the near East and other locations. The fact that the ONLY way Utah was allowed to become a state was to end Polygamy doctrinally, demonstrates the reality of how offensive it was once considered by most "Christianized" Americans.    

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13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If the local ministers had plural marriage on their side they would have been a lot louder about it.

What makes you think that they were not?

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13 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

In other words, their  (the Mormons) economic cohesion allowed the Mormons to dominate local economies. I can honestly say, that I would be Highly upset, had I learned that a religion was promoting polygamy.

So there should be evidence out there of polygamy being the cause at Kirtland and Missouri for nonMormons to be unhappy with Mormons settling in the midst of them.  2nd, 3rd? Call for evidence that this happened since as you first stated they would have been left lone in peace except for polygamy.

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14 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

What makes you think that they were not?

Show us the evidence they were.  There is extensive contemporary writings about Mormons.  You should be able to document that polygamy was why they were attacking Joseph Smith all along.

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19 minutes ago, Calm said:

Show us the evidence they were.  There is extensive contemporary writings about Mormons.  You should be able to document that polygamy was why they were attacking Joseph Smith all along.

The Great Basin Kingdom endured largely intact into the 1880s. But then, due to mounting hostility that centered on the practice of polygamy (which the U.S. Congress declared illegal by the Edmunds Act of l882), the Mormons relinquished their most controversial doctrine. After the arrest of a number of Mormon leaders, the president of the church, Wilford Woodruff, in exchange for granting Utah statehood, agreed to halt plural marriage and dissolve the separate Mormon political party.

Of 56 anti-Mormon novels published during the 19th century, 4 established a pattern for all of the others. These 4 were sensational, erotic novels focusing on the supposed plight of women of that church. Alfreda Eva Bell's Boadicea, the Mormon Wife (1855) depicted Church members as "murderers, forgers, swindlers, gamblers, thieves, and adulterers!" Orvilla S. Belisle's Mormonism Unveiled (1855) had the heroine hopelessly trapped in a Mormon harem. Metta Victoria Fuller Victor's Mormon Wives (1856) characterized Mormons as a "horrid" and deluded people. Maria Ward (a pseudonym) depicted Mormon torture of women in Female Life Among the Mormons (1855). Authors wrote lurid passages designed to sell the publications. Excommunicated members tried to capitalize on their former membership in the Church by selling "their" stories. Fanny Stenhouse's Tell It All (1874) and Ann Eliza Young's Wife No. 19 (1876) sensationalized the polygamy theme. 

That churches leadership responded to these attacks and adverse publicity only through sermons and admonitions. They defended Mormonism fundamental doctrine of revelation and authority from God. During the period of federal prosecution, the First Presidency condemned the acts against the Latter Day Saints by the U.S. Congress and Supreme Court as violations of the United States Constitution.

THE SEARCH FOR A PSYCHOLOGICAL EXPLANATION (1897-1945). After the Church officially discontinued polygamy in 1890, the public image of Mormonism improved and became moderately favorable. However, in 1898 Utah elected to the U.S. Congress B. H. Roberts, who had entered into plural marriages before the Manifesto. His election revived polygamy charges and further exposés by magazine muckrakers, and Congress refused to seat him. During the congressional debate, the Order of Presbytery in Utah issued a publication, Ten Reasons Why Christians Cannot Fellowship the Mormon Church, mainly objecting to the doctrine of modern revelation.

The advent of the motion picture brought a repetition of the anti-Mormon stereotype. From 1905 to 1936, at least 21 anti-Mormon films were produced. The most sordid of them were A Mormon Maid (1917) and Trapped by the Mormons (1922). The films depicted polygamous leaders seeking women converts to satisfy their lusts, and Mormons murdering innocent travelers in secret rites. Some of the most virulent anti-Mormon writings at this time came from Britain. Winifred Graham (Mrs. Theodore Cory), a professional anti-Mormon novelist, charged that Mormon missionaries were taking advantage of World War I by proselytizing women whose husbands were away to war. The film Trapped by the Mormons was based on one of her novels.

It would seem that polygamy in  mormonism was to have a long lasting affect that would continue for nearly a century. You asked for proof of the pervasive Christian mentality against polygamy and I have revealed that fact. God NEVER sanctioned polygamy. He only allowed it. One man for one wife is the ONLY thing GOD ever established.

Edited by LittleNipper

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Which has nothing to do with Joseph Smith, Kirtland, or Missouri.

Keep trying (the original claim was Joseph Smith and the Mormons were only persecuted because of the offensiveness of their polygamy to their contemporaries, thus you need to show evidence of awareness of polygamy among their critics that led to persecution in Kirtland and Missouri).

"he would have been left alone to stew in his own heresy"

Edited by Calm

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8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Which has nothing to do with Joseph Smith, Kirtland, or Missouri.

How many wives did Smith have? I would say you are closing your eyes to historical truth that you do not wish to acknowledge. It has EVERYTHING to do with what Smith started, promoted and engaged in himself.

Edited by LittleNipper

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Please look again!

The Great Basin Kingdom endured largely intact into the 1880s. But then, due to mounting hostility that centered on the practice of polygamy (which the U.S. Congress declared illegal by the Edmunds Act of l882), the Mormons relinquished their most controversial doctrine. After the arrest of a number of Mormon leaders, the president of the church, Wilford Woodruff, in exchange for granting Utah statehood, agreed to halt plural marriage and dissolve the separate Mormon political party.

Of 56 anti-Mormon novels published during the 19th century, 4 established a pattern for all of the others. These 4 were sensational, erotic novels focusing on the supposed plight of women of that church. Alfreda Eva Bell's Boadicea, the Mormon Wife (1855) depicted Church members as "murderers, forgers, swindlers, gamblers, thieves, and adulterers!" Orvilla S. Belisle's Mormonism Unveiled (1855) had the heroine hopelessly trapped in a Mormon harem. Metta Victoria Fuller Victor's Mormon Wives (1856) characterized Mormons as a "horrid" and deluded people. Maria Ward (a pseudonym) depicted Mormon torture of women in Female Life Among the Mormons (1855). Authors wrote lurid passages designed to sell the publications. Excommunicated members tried to capitalize on their former membership in the Church by selling "their" stories. Fanny Stenhouse's Tell It All (1874) and Ann Eliza Young's Wife No. 19 (1876) sensationalized the polygamy theme. 

That churches leadership responded to these attacks and adverse publicity only through sermons and admonitions. They defended Mormonism fundamental doctrine of revelation and authority from God. During the period of federal prosecution, the First Presidency condemned the acts against the Latter Day Saints by the U.S. Congress and Supreme Court as violations of the United States Constitution.

THE SEARCH FOR A PSYCHOLOGICAL EXPLANATION (1897-1945). After the Church officially discontinued polygamy in 1890, the public image of Mormonism improved and became moderately favorable. However, in 1898 Utah elected to the U.S. Congress B. H. Roberts, who had entered into plural marriages before the Manifesto. His election revived polygamy charges and further exposés by magazine muckrakers, and Congress refused to seat him. During the congressional debate, the Order of Presbytery in Utah issued a publication, Ten Reasons Why Christians Cannot Fellowship the Mormon Church, mainly objecting to the doctrine of modern revelation.

The advent of the motion picture brought a repetition of the anti-Mormon stereotype. From 1905 to 1936, at least 21 anti-Mormon films were produced. The most sordid of them were A Mormon Maid (1917) and Trapped by the Mormons (1922). The films depicted polygamous leaders seeking women converts to satisfy their lusts, and Mormons murdering innocent travelers in secret rites. Some of the most virulent anti-Mormon writings at this time came from Britain. Winifred Graham (Mrs. Theodore Cory), a professional anti-Mormon novelist, charged that Mormon missionaries were taking advantage of World War I by proselytizing women whose husbands were away to war. The film Trapped by the Mormons was based on one of her novels.

It would seem that polygamy in  mormonism was to have a long lasting affect that would continue for nearly a century. You asked for proof of the pervasive Christian mentality against polygamy and I have revealed that fact. God NEVER sanctioned polygamy. He only allowed it. One man for one wife is the ONLY thing GOD ever established.

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10 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

How many wives did Smith have? I would say you are closing your eyes to historical truth that you do not wish to acknowledge. It has EVERYTHING to do with what Smith promoted.

But it could only have caused persecution if it was known.

I am not claiming it did not occur.  I am not claiming it did not have any impact in Nauvoo or later in Utah.

I am asking for a demonstration that ppolygamy was part of the cause of persecution in Kirtland and Missouri.

Edited by Calm

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Kirtland and Missouri are not part of Utah last I checked.

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Films produced in the 1929s are highly unlikely to have inflamed mobs in the 1830s.

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12 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

What makes you think that they were not?

The historical record.

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11 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

 

Please look again!

The Great Basin Kingdom endured largely intact into the 1880s. But then, due to mounting hostility that centered on the practice of polygamy (which the U.S. Congress declared illegal by the Edmunds Act of l882), the Mormons relinquished their most controversial doctrine. After the arrest of a number of Mormon leaders, the president of the church, Wilford Woodruff, in exchange for granting Utah statehood, agreed to halt plural marriage and dissolve the separate Mormon political party.

Of 56 anti-Mormon novels published during the 19th century, 4 established a pattern for all of the others. These 4 were sensational, erotic novels focusing on the supposed plight of women of that church. Alfreda Eva Bell's Boadicea, the Mormon Wife (1855) depicted Church members as "murderers, forgers, swindlers, gamblers, thieves, and adulterers!" Orvilla S. Belisle's Mormonism Unveiled (1855) had the heroine hopelessly trapped in a Mormon harem. Metta Victoria Fuller Victor's Mormon Wives (1856) characterized Mormons as a "horrid" and deluded people. Maria Ward (a pseudonym) depicted Mormon torture of women in Female Life Among the Mormons (1855). Authors wrote lurid passages designed to sell the publications. Excommunicated members tried to capitalize on their former membership in the Church by selling "their" stories. Fanny Stenhouse's Tell It All (1874) and Ann Eliza Young's Wife No. 19 (1876) sensationalized the polygamy theme. 

That churches leadership responded to these attacks and adverse publicity only through sermons and admonitions. They defended Mormonism fundamental doctrine of revelation and authority from God. During the period of federal prosecution, the First Presidency condemned the acts against the Latter Day Saints by the U.S. Congress and Supreme Court as violations of the United States Constitution.

THE SEARCH FOR A PSYCHOLOGICAL EXPLANATION (1897-1945). After the Church officially discontinued polygamy in 1890, the public image of Mormonism improved and became moderately favorable. However, in 1898 Utah elected to the U.S. Congress B. H. Roberts, who had entered into plural marriages before the Manifesto. His election revived polygamy charges and further exposés by magazine muckrakers, and Congress refused to seat him. During the congressional debate, the Order of Presbytery in Utah issued a publication, Ten Reasons Why Christians Cannot Fellowship the Mormon Church, mainly objecting to the doctrine of modern revelation.

The advent of the motion picture brought a repetition of the anti-Mormon stereotype. From 1905 to 1936, at least 21 anti-Mormon films were produced. The most sordid of them were A Mormon Maid (1917) and Trapped by the Mormons (1922). The films depicted polygamous leaders seeking women converts to satisfy their lusts, and Mormons murdering innocent travelers in secret rites. Some of the most virulent anti-Mormon writings at this time came from Britain. Winifred Graham (Mrs. Theodore Cory), a professional anti-Mormon novelist, charged that Mormon missionaries were taking advantage of World War I by proselytizing women whose husbands were away to war. The film Trapped by the Mormons was based on one of her novels.

It would seem that polygamy in  mormonism was to have a long lasting affect that would continue for nearly a century. You asked for proof of the pervasive Christian mentality against polygamy and I have revealed that fact. God NEVER sanctioned polygamy. He only allowed it. One man for one wife is the ONLY thing GOD ever established.

No one is arguing that plural marriage did not cause people to dislike the Mormons but you made the argument they knew about it earlier then they did (Kirtland and Missouri). So put up or shut up.

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23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No one is arguing that plural marriage did not cause people to dislike the Mormons but you made the argument they knew about it earlier then they did (Kirtland and Missouri). So put up or shut up.

Just reason for one moment. Do you even imagine that a bunch of women are not going to say a word to each other or anyone else regarding being married to a "handsome prophet." There was no TV, no radio, all people had to do was read the paper and talk and gossip. I believe everyone in a 200 mile radius knew all about the "scandalous behavior." Everyone would have been indignant and appalled. Even today if some minister behaves against the "norm" the whole world knows it ------ but again we have radio and TV and cell phones....

One isn't going to find gossip, and the newspapers are all gone. However one will find governmental records of riots and picketing. And this is exactly what we do find. 

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. Our government has the responsibility to protect my body. I'll worry about my own soul thank you.  

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Sorry Little Nipper, there is no evidence of your allegation and much against it.

The fact is the Mormons made their neighbors angry; some of the anger was justified and some of it was not.

Edited by mnn727

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2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

the newspapers are all gone....

No, they are not.  There are also journals and letters from that era.  There is a significant record of antimormonism writings.  If it was as well known as you believe, then there should be documentation that can be found.  So please find it.  

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