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On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 5:57 PM, The Nehor said:

Against.

If the membership of the LDS Church could keep their big fat mouths shut we would have glorious revelations much more regularly.

"The reason we do not have secrets of the Lord revealed unto us is because we do not keep them but reveal them; We do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord?  I can keep a secret till Doomsday." -Joseph Smith

Yes Joseph was pretty good at keeping secrets and dissembling about issues that got out that he did not want out.

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Just now, Teancum said:

I think your reference it totally irrelevant to the question.

It might apply, like what about publicising to the membership the councils of the Twelve over policy and doctrine, be it live or after the fact?

I think such a thing could be good...the apostles could be modelling righteous disagreement to the church which could be extremely healthy.

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1 minute ago, Teancum said:

Yes Joseph was pretty good at keeping secrets and dissembling about issues that got out that he did not want out.

Yes, FAIR describes quite clearly how Joseph skillfully wordsmiths his way through accusations of polygamy and such. He was a born politician.

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On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 6:09 PM, The Nehor said:

Worthiness to receive revelation? Yes. If God wants to tell you something that has not been generally revealed but you are a blabbermouth who will tell everyone God will not tell you.

Shining light onto everything sounds so good and pure. Until you realize that is how police states operate. The Apostles and local leadership discuss things in confidence and arrive at decisions. If we released transcripts they would have to be super careful to try to say nothing that would offend.

In church finances (I suspect this is what you are not very subtly hinting at) the Brethren are lead by revelation. They may have projects whose ends they do not yet see or that make no sense to the world. They may even seem wasteful or counterproductive. Why arm our enemies with weapons against us if we do not have to? I taught the gospel for two years full-time and have spent about a decade more with callings involved with missionary work. I have yet to hear one investigator ask for church financials. The largest group of people who seem to want them are our enemies who want to use our lack of disclosure as a weapon and/or think they would get new arguments against us if they were disclosed. I have also seen members want them but they are usually wavering and either want to placate our enemies or are looking for reasons to criticize themselves.

Total BS on the finances topic.  Mental gyrations are wonderful thing.  Poor persecuted LDS Church can't disclose its finances for fear of its so called enemies. Yet many, many churches do disclose their finances which is really the only proper and correct choice.

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On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 6:15 PM, pogi said:

Or, it can land you in prison...depending upon which side of the law you have lived under.

I somehow don't think that Jesus was talking about transparency there.  By the "truth" he was speaking of himself, as he said a few verses later, “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”  Remember when he said, "I am the...truth"?

Good question, how would you answer that?  Do you think the US government should reveal all classified information in the name of truth and light to all of those who hate us and seek to harm us?

See this post is why I say it depends.  Define the question better because is allows for uber extreme examples like this.

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On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 6:52 PM, Tacenda said:

I think the church should disclose like other charity organizations, that's all. Nothing about finding out info from people that donate. That doesn't happen with your average charity organization.

But the LDS Church DOES NOT disclose like other charitable organizations, Not in the least at all.

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5 minutes ago, Teancum said:

See this post is why I say it depends.  Define the question better because is allows for uber extreme examples like this.

That's fair. I'm accostumed to assuming polarised questions can and even need to be subverted.

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On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 8:46 PM, Maidservant said:

The church is owned by one man, Jesus.  What he does with his own money is his own business.  Getting into someone's business doesn't represent light; it is an act of oppression.  I can't imagine disclosing my finances to my neighbors or even my children (in bullet point detail, anyway).

(Btw, darkness is a good thing.  Another subject,  I suppose.)

The conduct of the church (i.e. the prophet and his counselors) is based on the concept/reality that it is Jesus Christ's church (not the members' church).  If one doesn't agree with that premise, then likely very little of the conduct is going to make sense on the basis of any other premise.

I don't think what the church spends money on is a big surprise.  It already is in the open and in evidence.  Buildings, education, salaries, PR, humanitarian, community improvement projects, missionaries, literature, et cetera, et cetera.  What else could there be that needs to be known?

First of all it is an a priori assumption that the Church belongs only to Jesus.  Next even so the ones that manage the money given are humans.  They are not perfect. Thus accountability and transparency is a good thing.  The Church published its financial information up to 1959,  After that they stopped. It is mere coincidence that they stopped at a time that Church was suffering from financial mismanagement mostly related to over building Church buildings and were putting a heavy pressure on members to up the tithing revenue?  I don't think so.

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On 22.05.2017 at 2:39 PM, Meadowchik said:
Are you for or against light shining on every part of an organisation's doings?
 
Why or why not?

 

When it comes to members giving 10% of their pay, then yes, there should be light shining on how that money is used.  That's not too much to ask. 

The church doesn't do that...

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1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I think your reference it totally irrelevant to the question.

Question - Are you for or against light shining on every part of an organization's doings?
Answer - Christ was clear that pearls are not to be cast before swine.  Not everything is for public consumption.

Seems relevant to me if the organization is in possession of "pearls" or responsible for their safeguarding.

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7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Question - Are you for or against light shining on every part of an organization's doings?
Answer - Christ was clear that pearls are not to be cast before swine.  Not everything is for public consumption.

Seems relevant to me if the organization is in possession of "pearls" or responsible for their safeguarding.

I do understand what you are saying..but Joseph Smith has been said to bring about the fullness of times...not partial..not half way.

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14 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

When it comes to members giving 10% of their pay, then yes, there should be light shining on how that money is used.  That's not too much to ask.

The church doesn't do that...

Why?
Everyone seems to feel that way, but nobody seems to provide a good reason that includes any gospel principles.

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24 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

When it comes to members giving 10% of their pay, then yes, there should be light shining on how that money is used.  That's not too much to ask. 

The church doesn't do that...

You can ask all you want...

You can also choose not to pay tithing if you don't trust the church...

I wonder if Abraham required a financial accounting from Melchizedek...

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37 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Why?
Everyone seems to feel that way, but nobody seems to provide a good reason that includes any gospel principles.

On the contrary, more than one in this thread don't feel that way.

Anyways, from John 3,

"19 And this is the condemnation, thatlight is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateththe light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

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41 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Question - Are you for or against light shining on every part of an organization's doings?
Answer - Christ was clear that pearls are not to be cast before swine.  Not everything is for public consumption.

Seems relevant to me if the organization is in possession of "pearls" or responsible for their safeguarding.

That's the thing I don't understand, how is putting the financial report out for it's members putting pearls before swine? Are the members swine? I don't believe so, and I know you don't think they are. Why even Pres. Hinckley said the members know where their tithing goes. Why would he say that? 

I stumbled across another church's bulletin for the month once and was flabberghasted to see the monthy statement of their incoming funds and the outgoing funds. Of course I know that the church is not run this way because each ward isn't their own entity. But wish there was something that can be done. Here is the Catholic church's financial statement and I doubt many even look at it or care.  http://www.usccb.org/about/financial-reporting/upload/financial-statements-2013-2014.pdf

I know the church is a corporation also that runs several businesses. I wish they could just separate those and at least show funds from tithing and where those funds go, not the interest made from the businesses. Of course they should do that also for the business world perhaps. But I realize that other companies don't have to do that, maybe for stockholders. Or maybe companies do, here is a link for Wells Fargo, the bank I once had an account with until they had some shenanigans with people selling fake accounts in order to not get fired because they needed to cross sell to be a good employee. https://www08.wellsfargomedia.com/assets/pdf/about/investor-relations/annual-reports/2016-annual-report.pdf

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27 minutes ago, pogi said:

You can ask all you want...

You can also choose not to pay tithing if you don't trust the church...

I wonder if Abraham required a financial accounting from Melchizedek...

Actually, godly stewards who care about and take seriously their work will often share the details of their doings to enhance outcomes and learn from each other.

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4 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

On the contrary, more than one in this thread don't feel that way.

Anyways, from John 3,

"19 And this is the condemnation, thatlight is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateththe light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

That has no direct relationship to volunteering private information but with a love of truth.
God loves truth perfectly and withholds an eternity of information from general view.

Again, there is no gospel principle requiring us to have ANY say or concern about how tithing is used once we've paid it.

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49 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Why?
Everyone seems to feel that way, but nobody seems to provide a good reason that includes any gospel principles.

From the church website:

  • Satan put it into the hearts of the people to form secret oaths and covenants, Hel. 6:21–31.

  • The Lord worketh not in secret combinations, Ether 8:19.

  • Nations that uphold secret combinations shall be destroyed, Ether 8:22–23.

  • They did reject all the words of the prophets, because of their secret society, Ether 11:22.

  • From the days of Cain, there was a secret combination, Moses 5:51

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1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

That has no direct relationship to volunteering private information but with a love of truth.
God loves truth perfectly and withholds an eternity of information from general view.

Again, there is no gospel principle requiring us to have ANY say or concern about how tithing is used once we've paid it.

This is not about having a say, necessarily, but having a see.

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9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

That's the thing I don't understand, how is putting the financial report out for it's members putting pearls before swine? Are the members swine? I don't believe so, and I know you don't think they are.

Swine is the metaphor used by the Savior concerning anyone who lacks the understanding to properly understand and use the sacred.
Sometimes that includes members.  Sometimes that includes leaders.

Quote

Why even Pres. Hinckley said the members know where their tithing goes. Why would he say that?

Because for the most part the Church has laid out where each type of funds go.  Fast Offerings go to help the needy.  Tithing goes for temples, etc.  Even Wikipedia says so:

  • Donations from fast offerings are not used for the same purposes as those monies given through tithes. Specifically, fast offerings are used to provide food, shelter, clothing, medical care, and other necessities for those who are in need, fulfilling the meaning conveyed in Isaiah 58:6–11, with attendant blessings to the giver and the receiver. Tithing funds are used to build and maintain meetinghouses, temples, and educational facilities; for the general maintenance of church operations; and for costs of missionary and genealogical and family history work.

What more detail than that are we entitled to under gospel principle.

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4 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

On the contrary, more than one in this thread don't feel that way.

Anyways, from John 3,

"19 And this is the condemnation, thatlight is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateththe light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

I don't think this should be seen as a call for absolute transparency.  That is a pretty extreme translation.  Much of what I do as a nurse is in secret, thanks to HIPPA.  Even you acknowledge that not all deeds should be done in the light of transparency, I hope.   Indeed, Christ frequently commands us to do good deeds in secret, to pray in secret, and to do our alms in secret, to fast in secret, to "not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."

From Barnes' Notes on the Bible on these passages:

Quote

 

Light often denotes instruction, teaching, doctrine, as that by which we see clearly the path of duty. all the instruction that God gives us by conscience, reason, or revelation may thus be called light; but this word is used especially to denote the Messiah or the Christ, who is often spoken of as "the light." See Isaiah 60:1; Isaiah 9:2. Compare Matthew 4:16; also the notes at John 1:4. It was doubtless this light to which Jesus had particular reference here.

Men loved darkness - Darkness is the emblem of ignorance, iniquity, error, superstition - whatever is opposite to truth and piety. Men are said to love darkness more than they do light when they are better pleased with error than truth, with sin than holiness, with Belial than Christ.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Actually, godly stewards who care about and take seriously their work will often share the details of their doings to enhance outcomes and learn from each other.

Not all godly stewards who care about and take seriously their work share such details.

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14 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

From the church website:

  • Satan put it into the hearts of the people to form secret oaths and covenants, Hel. 6:21–31.

  • The Lord worketh not in secret combinations, Ether 8:19.

  • Nations that uphold secret combinations shall be destroyed, Ether 8:22–23.

  • They did reject all the words of the prophets, because of their secret society, Ether 11:22.

  • From the days of Cain, there was a secret combination, Moses 5:51

And
Matthew 6:4 - 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. (Alms = Fast offerings, should be in secret).

D&C 41:6 For it is not meet that the things which belong to the children of the kingdom should be given to them that are not worthy, or to dogs, or the pearls to be cast before swine.

D&C 45:72 And now I say unto you, keep these things from going abroad unto the world until it is expedient in me, that ye may accomplish this work in the eyes of the people, and in the eyes of your enemies, that they may not know your works until ye have accomplished the thing which I have commanded you;

"The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us, is because we do not keep them but reveal them; we do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? I can keep a secret till Doomsday." - Joseph Smith speaking of temples.  (Why would sacred funds be any less protected than sacred teachings?)


 

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26 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

This is not about having a say, necessarily, but having a see.

And it's still none of the general memberships business.  None at all.

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