Meadowchik Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Are you for or against light shining on every part of an organisation's doings? Why or why not? 2 Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Against. Christ was clear that pearls are not to be cast before swine. Not everything is for public consumption. 2 Link to comment
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted May 22, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 22, 2017 My Catholic diocese publishes online the audit report done yearly by an outside accounting company. Anyone can go to the finance department and look at the books. It's pretty open (and pretty boring). I'm not sure how other dioceses do it, though, and I've heard grumblings here and there about the Vatican's finances. 5 Link to comment
ksfisher Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Are you for or against light shining on every part of an organisation's doings? Why or why not? God is aware of all things. That being said I don't think it's necessary for everybody to know everything about what others are doing. God can be trusted with all knowledge, others not so much. 2 Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Against. Christ was clear that pearls are not to be cast before swine. Not everything is for public consumption. Not even for the membership? Edit: Not even for members worthy of entering into sacred covenants? Edited May 22, 2017 by Meadowchik 1 Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 Just now, ksfisher said: God is aware of all things. That being said I don't think it's necessary for everybody to know everything about what others are doing. God can be trusted with all knowledge, others not so much. Can you explain what kind of knowledge can only be entrusted to some in an organization but not all members? Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: My Catholic diocese publishes online the audit report done yearly by an outside accounting company. Anyone can go to the finance department and look at the books. It's pretty open (and pretty boring). I'm not sure how other dioceses do it, though, and I've heard grumblings here and there about the Vatican's finances. That is cool. Off topic, but I once met a former Easter Orthodox monk who translated texts in a Greek monastery for years. What about other things, like historical archives? Link to comment
Popular Post The Nehor Posted May 22, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 22, 2017 Against. 2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Not even for the membership? If the membership of the LDS Church could keep their big fat mouths shut we would have glorious revelations much more regularly. "The reason we do not have secrets of the Lord revealed unto us is because we do not keep them but reveal them; We do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? I can keep a secret till Doomsday." -Joseph Smith 6 Link to comment
HappyJackWagon Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 15 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Are you for or against light shining on every part of an organisation's doings? Why or why not? It's hard to see why sunshine would be a bad thing. Are church finances really "pearls" of great price that cannot be cast before swine? I believe the "pearls" talked about in scripture are doctrines and mysteries of godliness, not church administration. I suppose we all have our own definitions for what is and is not a "pearl." Quote “If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” J Rueben Clark 4 Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 Just now, The Nehor said: Against. If the membership of the LDS Church could keep their big fat mouths shut we would have glorious revelations much more regularly. "The reason we do not have secrets of the Lord revealed unto us is because we do not keep them but reveal them; We do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? I can keep a secret till Doomsday." -Joseph Smith So keeping secrets is directly tied to worthiness? Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: It's hard to see why sunshine would be a bad thing. Are church finances really "pearls" of great price that cannot be cast before swine? I believe the "pearls" talked about in scripture are doctrines and mysteries of godliness, not church administration. I suppose we all have our own definitions for what is and is not a "pearl." The Clark quote is excellent. I also like the one about the truth setting you free. A pretty important person said it Edited May 22, 2017 by Meadowchik 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Gray Posted May 22, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 22, 2017 Sunshine is the best disinfectant. Of course there are limits to that, but generally financial transparency is good policy for any NFP organization. 5 Link to comment
Popular Post ksfisher Posted May 22, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Can you explain what kind of knowledge can only be entrusted to some in an organization but not all members? The foundation that I work for has the social security numbers of all of our clients who are receiving federal assistance. Employees who work with that specific program have access to that information. I have no need for anything like that in my position, hence I cannot access it. The same is true with people who donate to us using a credit card. Specific people have access. I have nothing to do with that, so I don't. In an ecclesiastical setting, a member of a church may confess a sin to his priest or bishop. The general membership of that church has no need to know anything about what other members of the church may or may not have done. The same would be true of donations to a church. A person who donates a portion of their income to a church, or for that matter any charity, does not routinely expect that donation to become public knowledge. Edited May 22, 2017 by ksfisher 15 Link to comment
Popular Post The Nehor Posted May 22, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Meadowchik said: So keeping secrets is directly tied to worthiness? Worthiness to receive revelation? Yes. If God wants to tell you something that has not been generally revealed but you are a blabbermouth who will tell everyone God will not tell you. Shining light onto everything sounds so good and pure. Until you realize that is how police states operate. The Apostles and local leadership discuss things in confidence and arrive at decisions. If we released transcripts they would have to be super careful to try to say nothing that would offend. In church finances (I suspect this is what you are not very subtly hinting at) the Brethren are lead by revelation. They may have projects whose ends they do not yet see or that make no sense to the world. They may even seem wasteful or counterproductive. Why arm our enemies with weapons against us if we do not have to? I taught the gospel for two years full-time and have spent about a decade more with callings involved with missionary work. I have yet to hear one investigator ask for church financials. The largest group of people who seem to want them are our enemies who want to use our lack of disclosure as a weapon and/or think they would get new arguments against us if they were disclosed. I have also seen members want them but they are usually wavering and either want to placate our enemies or are looking for reasons to criticize themselves. Edited May 23, 2017 by The Nehor 13 Link to comment
Popular Post pogi Posted May 22, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I also like the one about the truth setting you free. Or, it can land you in prison...depending upon which side of the law you have lived under. I somehow don't think that Jesus was talking about transparency there. By the "truth" he was speaking of himself, as he said a few verses later, “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.” Remember when he said, "I am the...truth"? 37 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Are you for or against light shining on every part of an organisation's doings? Good question, how would you answer that? Do you think the US government should reveal all classified information in the name of truth and light to all of those who hate us and seek to harm us? Edited May 22, 2017 by pogi 8 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 44 minutes ago, ksfisher said: The foundation that I work for has the social security numbers of all of our clients who are receiving federal assistance. Employees who work with that specific program have access to that information. I have no need for anything like that in my position, hence I cannot access it. The same is true with people who donate to us using a credit card. Specific people have access. I have nothing to do with that, so I don't. In an ecclesiastical setting, a member of a church may confess a sin to his priest or bishop. The general membership of that church has no need to know anything about what other members of the church may or may not have done. The same would be true of donations to a church. A person who donates a portion of their income to a church, or for that matter any charity, does not routinely expect that donation to become public knowledge. I think the church should disclose like other charity organizations, that's all. Nothing about finding out info from people that donate. That doesn't happen with your average charity organization. 2 Link to comment
ksfisher Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 32 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I think the church should disclose like other charity organizations, that's all. Nothing about finding out info from people that donate. That doesn't happen with your average charity organization. I was asked about what types of information should an organization not share with its members, not about LDS Church finances. My answer is not applicable to the latter. Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Not even for the membership? Edit: Not even for members worthy of entering into sacred covenants? Sometimes especially not for them. And there are plenty of stories to back that up. Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Meadowchik said: So keeping secrets is directly tied to worthiness? Yes, absolutely. Does God tell even his own children everything? If we want to be like God we need to learn to reveal truth line upon line. If God dropped the veil and told us everything about this organization we are part of (his creation) how catastrophic would the results be? Link to comment
Popular Post Maidservant Posted May 23, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) The church is owned by one man, Jesus. What he does with his own money is his own business. Getting into someone's business doesn't represent light; it is an act of oppression. I can't imagine disclosing my finances to my neighbors or even my children (in bullet point detail, anyway). (Btw, darkness is a good thing. Another subject, I suppose.) The conduct of the church (i.e. the prophet and his counselors) is based on the concept/reality that it is Jesus Christ's church (not the members' church). If one doesn't agree with that premise, then likely very little of the conduct is going to make sense on the basis of any other premise. I don't think what the church spends money on is a big surprise. It already is in the open and in evidence. Buildings, education, salaries, PR, humanitarian, community improvement projects, missionaries, literature, et cetera, et cetera. What else could there be that needs to be known? Edited May 23, 2017 by Maidservant 11 Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I can think of plenty of organizations that I don't want to be public knowledge of everything it has my family the cia fbi DoD why should God tell me what He does with His money? 2 Link to comment
Duncan Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I think light is good if something nefarious is going on but otherwise no I don't want to know. Do I want to know if someone is kifing tithing money? yeah and what is being done to remedy it but no I don't want to know who is bringing what colouring books to nursery 2 Link to comment
Darren10 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 6 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Are you for or against light shining on every part of an organisation's doings? Why or why not? I find it prudent that the LDs church does not reveal all its finances unless explicitly directed to by law. By showing its financial holdings and assess, people, such as juries, are much more susceptible to grant financial rewards of compensation towards accusers of the Church. Revealing such finances would encourage a money grab by, well, money grabbers. Also, things like tithing and fast offerings are matters between and individual and God. Except for ecclesiastical leaders, there is no need for anyone to know how much one donates unless that individual chooses to divulge said information. Link to comment
Darren10 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) So far as what the LDS Church spends its money on and how much I'm pretty much OK with so long as the auditing is not overburdening. Edited May 23, 2017 by Darren10 1 Link to comment
BlueDreams Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Are you for or against light shining on every part of an organisation's doings? Why or why not? In my job (ie, an organization) definitely not. It's considered unethical and/or illgal, depending. Light is generally good, yes....but I do think there is a balance that needs to be struck. Even on an individual basis with God or with relationships we don't get all the information all the time or right when we want it. At least I don't....maybe you hit gold and got the omniscient ticket . I find myself sometimes wondering why I can't just know more....My curiosity is generally insatiable....but I recognize there is value is NOT knowing sometimes. At least it has been valuable for me. Again, on in interpersonal level, I was reading a book about vulnerability and it talks about how over-sharing is actually a form in false-vulnerability and at times a way to control the situation and keep people oddly at bay. Having things "brought to light" can also be dangerous based on who's hands that knowledge is given to and who utilizes it. Knowing stuff, having all the data, etc. isn't good on its own anymore than technology is good by itself. Most people in the US like having an ultrasound and have a good experience finding out whether their child is a boy of a girl. This light shining leads to happy innocuous choices about clothes and decorations. In other parts of the world the same technology and knowledge is used to increase abortions of little girls, drastically increasing gender disparity, and feeding a system that is leading to long-term national instability. The knowledge and tools are the same, the context and implementation are what's important. So lets see my why nots so far include: ethics, legality, context, oversharing problems, boundary problems, safety, and context/implementation. The only other thing I can think of is Spiderman and privilege. Mainly that spiderman stated with great power come great responsibility. To me knowledge is a form of power. Privilege was something that I was thinking about the other day in correlation with the talents parable. I always thought it was a little weird that they all got different amounts. Why not disperse equally? It struck me that those who were given more also had the same expectation of multiplying every extra talent received. Every righteous servant doubled their talents, whether that went from 1 to 2 or 5 to 10. They had a greater level of responsibility to receiving more from the master. On a church level, I'm not super concerned. I don't know the perfect balance when weighing or deliberating these varying concerns. But what I have seen elicits trust that it is something that those who may be more "privileged" with structural, financial, or behind the scenes concerns take very seriously and very carefully. Though they're not by any means perfect and at times there will be individuals who will end up abusing the system. I would also be lying if I didn't say that some of the things people get heated about over transparency I just don't care about. With luv, BD Edited May 23, 2017 by BlueDreams 3 Link to comment
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