Published response to "reconfiguration of LDS politics"

[Scott Lloyd]

Since there was a thread on Spencer Fluhman's Deseret News op-ed on a supposed coming reconfiguraiton of LDS politics, perhaps it is appropriate to give attention to this response op-ed in the same newspaper.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865679304/Ralph-Hancock-LDS-progressivism-is-not-grounded-in-LDS-belief.html

Hancock, a political scientist who is Mormon, essentially identifies Fluhman's premise as wishful thinking. I tend to agree 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[thesometimesaint]

The vast majority of LDS live outside Utah.

[The Nehor]

His supposed insight into where conservative thought and LDS doctrince coincide is very blinkered. Pointing out connections between nebulous and implied religious values and political values would have some merit if we ignore the real incongruency between simple and direct principles.

You can argue that the unfettered free market is compatible with the gospel and there can be debate. On the topic of "Wo unto the liar for he shall be thrust down to hell!" there is less room for interpretation.

[MormonVideoGame]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Hancock, a political scientist who is Mormon, essentially identifies Fluhman's premise as wishful thinking. I tend to agree 

Your article says, "One of the facts the piece misses, for example, is that despite a visceral aversion to Trump, ultimately Mormons overwhelmingly voted for him."

Donald J. Trump won the Electoral College with 304 votes. Utah has 6 votes and Idaho has 4 votes, which is a total of ten. 

304 - 10 = 294 votes. 

In Arizona, Trump only won by 3.5%. There are 5% Mormons (self-identify) in Arizona. Had Mormons not "overwhelmingly voted" for Trump, and instead for a conservative third Party, Trump would have probably lost Arizona. 

294 - 11 =  283

In Michigan, Trump only won by 0.3%, or 10,704 votes. According to LDS stats there are 44,662 Mormons (8+ years old) in Michigan. 

283 - 16 = 267

Unfortunately there is not enough information in the exit polls to be sure. 

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

The vast majority of LDS live outside Utah.

There were probably enough Mormons to deny him the presidency simply by refusing to vote for him, and a Republican Congress would have chosen a Republican President. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[MormonVideoGame]

31 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You can argue that the unfettered free market is compatible with the gospel and there can be debate. On the topic of "Wo unto the liar for he shall be thrust down to hell!" there is less room for interpretation.

Well, see my numbers above. and of course LDS members can be progressive, Scott Lloyd doesn't seem to understand that allowing gay marriage for example, is not the same thing as practicing it. There is a difference. 

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Your article says, "One of the facts the piece misses, for example, is that despite a visceral aversion to Trump, ultimately Mormons overwhelmingly voted for him."

Donald J. Trump won the Electoral College with 304 votes. Utah has 6 votes and Idaho has 4 votes, which is a total of ten. 

304 - 10 = 294 votes. 

In Arizona, Trump only won by 3.5%. There are 5% Mormons (self-identify) in Arizona. Had Mormons not "overwhelmingly voted" for Trump, and instead for a conservative third Party, Trump would have probably lost Arizona. 

294 - 11 =  283

In Michigan, Trump only won by 0.3%, or 10,704 votes. According to LDS stats there are 44,662 Mormons (8+ years old) in Michigan. 

283 - 16 = 267

Unfortunately there is not enough information in the exit polls to be sure. 

Well, Trump is president thanks to our LDS brothers and sisters. There were enough Mormons to deny him the presidency simply by refusing to vote for him, and a Republican Congress would have chosen a Republican President. 

"there is not enough information in the exit polls to be sure."

"Trump is president thanks to our LDS brothers and sisters."

So which is it?

[thesometimesaint]

7 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Your article says, "One of the facts the piece misses, for example, is that despite a visceral aversion to Trump, ultimately Mormons overwhelmingly voted for him."

Donald J. Trump won the Electoral College with 304 votes. Utah has 6 votes and Idaho has 4 votes, which is a total of ten. 

304 - 10 = 294 votes. 

In Arizona, Trump only won by 3.5%. There are 5% Mormons (self-identify) in Arizona. Had Mormons not "overwhelmingly voted" for Trump, and instead for a conservative third Party, Trump would have probably lost Arizona. 

294 - 11 =  283

In Michigan, Trump only won by 0.3%, or 10,704 votes. According to LDS stats there are 44,662 Mormons (8+ years old) in Michigan. 

283 - 16 = 267

Well, Trump is president thanks to our LDS brothers and sisters. There were enough Mormons to deny him the presidency simply by refusing to vote for him, and a Republican Congress would have chosen a Republican President. 

The LDS comprise a very small percentage of the electorate. Even if everyone one of them 18 and older voted for Trump the effect would have been insignificant. Hillary still won with over 3 million votes to spare.

[MormonVideoGame]

24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

"there is not enough information in the exit polls to be sure."

"Trump is president thanks to our LDS brothers and sisters."

So which is it?

The numbers do appear to add up, but there is not enough information to be sure. 

Please let me know if you have reasons to believe that Mormons couldn't possibly affect the outcome in Arizona and Michigan.

23 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

The LDS comprise a very small percentage of the electorate. Even if everyone one of them 18 and older voted for Trump the effect would have been insignificant. Hillary still won with over 3 million votes to spare.

CFR that the Mormon vote was not significant in Arizona and Michigan.  Remember, 5% is Mormon in Arizona, that is not insignificant. Trump only won by 3.5% there.

In Michigan Trump only won by 10 thousand votes. 10,000 was too much for a recount, but perhaps 5,000 would have done

Edited May 7, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

The numbers do appear to add up, but there is not enough information to be sure. 

Please let me know if you have reasons to believe that Mormons couldn't possibly affect the outcome of Arizona and Michigan.

The numbers 'appear to add up' and yet you are still willing to draw conclusions? I don't know. You don't either. Yet you are still willing to thank the LDS for the results? This calls your devotion to rationality into question.

[thesometimesaint]

27 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

The numbers do appear to add up, but there is not enough information to be sure. 

Please let me know if you have reasons to believe that Mormons couldn't possibly affect the outcome of Arizona and Michigan.

CFR that the Mormon vote was not significant in Arizona and Michigan.  Remember, 5% is Mormon in Arizona, that is not insignificant. Trump only won by 3.5% there. 

Population of Michigan: almost 10 million

LDS population of Michigan almost 45,000

Population of Arizona; almost 7 million

LDS population Arizona;  a little over 423,000

I'm not saying that the LDS didn't have an effect. Just that the effect was insignificant.

I don't believe that LDS support grabbing women by their genitals.

Edited May 7, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[MormonVideoGame]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The numbers 'appear to add up' and yet you are still willing to draw conclusions? I don't know. You don't either. Yet you are still willing to thank the LDS for the results? This calls your devotion to rationality into question.

First of all I wasn't tell you "thanks to our brothers and sisters ". Second, it was just an expression to point to that possibility, nothing more.We give thanks all the time, even if we are not 100% sure. But I deleted it so you could stop arguing about that expression. Seriously, you always do that? in you ward too? 

So do you have reasons to believe the Mormon vote was not significant in AZ and Michigan?   

Edited May 7, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[MormonVideoGame]

20 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Population of Arizona; almost 7 million

LDS population Arizona;  a little over 423,000

I'm not saying that the LDS didn't have an effect. Just that the effect was insignificant.

I don't believe that LDS support grabbing women by their genitals.

Just do the Math, that is about 7% (in my head). Even worst. I said 5%. 

In Michigan Trump won by 10,000 votes, and you just said "LDS population of Michigan almost 45,000"

[thesometimesaint]

That assumes nearly all LDS voted for Trump. They didn't

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

First of all I wasn't tell you "thanks to our brothers and sisters ".

Technically true but you did say:"Trump is president thanks to our LDS brothers and sisters." which is what I said you said. Now you have edited it out of the post I quoted.

14 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Second, it was just an expression to point to that possibility, nothing more.

A sarcastic one as you are not a Trump supporter.

15 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

We give thanks all the time, even if we are not 100% sure.

In that case thanks for singlehandedly causing World War II. You monster....

16 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

But I deleted it so you could stop arguing about that expression. Seriously, you always do that? in you ward too? 

I wasn't arguing.

17 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

So do you have reasons to believe the Mormon vote was not significant in AZ and Michigan?   

Do you have reason to believe it was? And round and round we go.....

[MormonVideoGame]

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Do you have reason to believe it was? And round and round we go.....

I already gave you reasons why I suspect that. Unfortunately we don't know how many LDS voted for Trump in AZ and Michigan. 

Quote

That assumes nearly all LDS voted for Trump. They didn't

But we know that most did. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

His supposed insight into where conservative thought and LDS doctrince coincide is very blinkered. Pointing out connections between nebulous and implied religious values and political values would have some merit if we ignore the real incongruency between simple and direct principles.

You can argue that the unfettered free market is compatible with the gospel and there can be debate. On the topic of "Wo unto the liar for he shall be thrust down to hell!" there is less room for interpretation.

I guess that doesn't put liberal Democrats in too good a position, then, after they repeatedly lied to the American people, telling them that under Obamacare, "you can keep your doctor and you can keep your plan if you like them."

[Scott Lloyd]

48 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

That assumes nearly all LDS voted for Trump. They didn't

Well of course they didn't. Most of them are not U.S. citizens. 

When I make remarks like you've been making in this thread, my 14-year-old calls me Captain Obvious. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Well, see my numbers above. and of course LDS members can be progressive, Scott Lloyd doesn't seem to understand that allowing gay marriage for example, is not the same thing as practicing it. There is a difference. 

I know the difference. I also know that the prophets and apostles opposed it as a matter of public policy. I cast my lot with them. 

[MormonVideoGame]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I guess that doesn't put liberal Democrats in too good a position, then, after they repeatedly lied to the American people, telling them that under Obamacare, "you can keep your doctor and you can keep your plan if you like them."

You need to be on limited. The thread needs to close immediately.  You know the  rules. 

18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Well of course they didn't. Most of them are not U.S. citizens. 

CFR  or define LDS  

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

That assumes nearly all LDS voted for Trump. They didn't

According to Pew 61% of self-described LDS voters voted for Trump  

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/

The problem is that we don't know how many LDS voted for Trump in AZ and Michigan. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[MormonVideoGame]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I know the difference. I also know that the prophets and apostles opposed it as a matter of public policy. I cast my lot with them. 

and that creates a lot of problems. Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world. Why mingle LDS scriptures with the laws and philosophies of men? 

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Since there was a thread on Spencer Fluhman's Deseret News op-ed on a supposed coming reconfiguraiton of LDS politics, perhaps it is appropriate to give attention to this response op-ed in the same newspaper.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865679304/Ralph-Hancock-LDS-progressivism-is-not-grounded-in-LDS-belief.html

Hancock, a political scientist who is Mormon, essentially identifies Fluhman's premise as wishful thinking. I tend to agree 

I am not surprised you agree with Ralph Hancock's views. They are uber conservative both on the religious front and the political front. After reading hundreds if not thousands of your posts here as well as some of our interactions it would surprise me if you did not agree with him. And I do not mean that with disrespect.  

I have listened to Professor Hancock in numerous podcasts.  Needless to say personally I am not a fan.  Though I do find him thoughtful and his positions are well thought out.

The fact that Mormons overwhelmingly voted for Donald Trump I find shameful as well as amazing.  There are many reasons I feel that way but I think if I make this an overtly political thread that is a problem on this discussion board..

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

You need to be on limited. The thread needs to close immediately.  You know the  rules. 

 

 

Apparently you don't. (Is that why you're on limited?) There's a rule against board nannying. I presume that includes telling other contributors they should be on "limited" and their threads should be shut down.

Quote

CFR  or define LDS  

A member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

For the past 20 years or so, there have been more members outside the United States than inside it. Hence, the majority are not U.S. citizens.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I am not surprised you agree with Ralph Hancock's views. They are uber conservative both on the religious front and the political front. After reading hundreds if not thousands of your posts here as well as some of our interactions it would surprise me if you did not agree with him. And I do not mean that with disrespect.  

I have listened to Professor Hancock in numerous podcasts.  Needless to say personally I am not a fan.  Though I do find him thoughtful and his positions are well thought out.

 

I've only become acquainted with him through a couple of FairMormon conferences and occasionally his column in the Deseret News. But I do acknowledge my admiration for him as a pundit.

Quote

The fact that Mormons overwhelmingly voted for Donald Trump I find shameful as well as amazing.  There are many reasons I feel that way but I think if I make this an overtly political thread that is a problem on this discussion board.

Thank you for your restraint. But (unlike MormonVideoGame) I won't try to shut down or shout down your freedom of speech. This is not the Berkeley campus.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

and that creates a lot of problems. Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world. Why mingle LDS scriptures with the laws and philosophies of men? 

The leadership of the Church has always reserved the right to comment on matters of public policy when they pertain to moral issues.

You don't get to tell people what they may and may not speak out on. This is not the Berkeley campus.

[MormonVideoGame]

35 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The leadership of the Church has always reserved the right to comment on matters of public policy when they pertain to moral issues.

You don't get to tell people what they may and may not speak out on. This is not the Berkeley campus.

and when did I say the Church doesn't have that right? The church is free to say what ever it wants. You did not answer my question at all. "Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world. Why mingle LDS scriptures with the laws and philosophies of men?" 

45 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

A member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

For the past 20 years or so, there have been more members outside the United States than inside it. Hence, the majority or not U.S. citizens.

CFR or retract! Church numbers are not useful because outside the US most don't self-describe as Mormon.  

You talk politics, you insult others by calling them liars, and now you ignore my CFR.  I hope the mods are impartial. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by MormonVideoGame