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Priestcraft

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St Balthasar,

Yeah this is priestcraft at it's worst. We are not to sell the gospel. The Church will give a set of scriptures to anyone who wants them. To set up a booklet tha tall in a stake have to have... I don't know but someone is looking to start his own flock (not Christ's flock, his own). Is this happening some where or am I extremely guilible. Notice I believe it could. Someone is looking for some nice disciplinary action. I hope I am wrong in believing this has happened some where.

Dr Fatguy

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StBalthasar, out of curiosity what is the topic of the booklet? Is he pushing something that Mormons consider heretical?

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If that happened in my Stake, I wouldn't pay for it. And if I got my hands on someone else's binder, I would copy it like crazy.

:P

MorningStar

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Rtifs: It is my understanding that the topic is "studying the scriptures." So no, it's not heretical (I think if it was a heretical teaching more would've happened so far; apparently SL heard about the collection without receipts and the stake president went into every priesthood quorum to personally thank everyone for the money (the books went from red to black) and apologize for not going through proper collection procedure).

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IMO, there is nothing inherently wrong with paying those who serve as religious leaders and guides. I believe that the danger lies in the reactions of the congregations. I have worked with some wonderful clergy who were trying to help their congregations, but found themselves in trouble with the lay councils, which were threatening (and in some cases did) to replace them with less demanding ministers/pastors. The paid clergy often get worked to the bone, and tend to receive limited support from their congregations. We believe that we are all to become christlike, and I get the impression that many people hope to pay someone else to take this particular "burden" away. We are ALL supposed to serve in a christlike capacities, rather than expecting someone to do it all for us. Paid clergy tend to become a form of indulgences for church members.

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Their lives were not somehow worse working for a monastery rather than a noble.
I am sorry if I gave the impression that I thought the Russian Church was somehow corrupt just because it owned serfs.

In my comments I have been trying to find comparisons among the LDS and have been successful (at least in my own mind) with most things, but I couldn't come up with a parallel for that one.

It was the system of that place and time and the corruption, imo, if it was there for any of the ministers it would have to be examined in that context. I don't have enough info or experience to do so. The guides at the musuem made it a point to stress the hardship and fear that was behind the wealth of both the Church and the Crown as opposed to a joyful desire, but beyond some history that dealt more with the Crown I don't have enough knowledge to judge whether they were accurate or not. I think it was pretty obvious that there was both prejudice against and pride in the ROC in the Russians we knew as we'd hear of the collaboration of the Church officers with the government along with the spiritual depth of their rituals and beliefs. The Russians themselves, at least during the time period I lived over there, seemed to be very ambivalent to many things in their culture and history including their traditional faiths.

While we lived there, I came across charities and schools run by the ROC. There was lots of reconstruction and renovation of churches that had been neglected or abused during the Soviet Union. There was a dome that was being regilded that looked like it was floating in the treetops from our kitchen window and my husband commented that it was 'flashy', my response was along the lines of 'yeah, kind of reminds me of Moroni for some reason'. :P

I had both positive and negative experiences with these endeavours, pretty much just like every other faith I've encountered including my own LDS one. Humans are involved, I don't expect anything else. <_<

add-on: I believe it is much easier to justify (rightly so) costly and notso costly expenditures when one knows the intent with which it is done and this is much easier when it is ourselves. Thus we have most tithepayers talking about the joy and satisfaction while others look on tithing as an exhortation racket, we have some pointing to cathedrals as abuses of the peasants and others who contributed to build them speaking of how just walking in them they feel they are in the presence of God and we have still others pointing to the LDS temples and asking why that money wasn't used to improve the lives of those in poverty in the Church. How does one answer when expenditures seem unnecessary to an outsider--as in 'it doesn't feed or clothe'. Responding that it feeds and clothes the spirit doesn't work as then they want to know why this couldn't be done in a humble surrounding as it was sufficient for the beginnings of the Church. Such things come down to the presence or absence of faith in the spiritual experience provided. I don't see it as my place to point to another's faith and pronounce 'priestcraft' or vanity based on my own lack of experience with it.

I am glad someone brought up the fact that priestcraft can occur among the LDS. Personal gain is more than just about money. I have my doubts about someone's sanity if they choose to teach seminary for purely financial reasons. However, there are other priestcrafts that we need to guard against in our hearts such as the approval and admiration of others as well as a feeding of a sense of personal superiority and the fears that generally go along with these (rejection, inferiority, etc). Anything that places us in a position that tempts us to 'set ourselves up as a light for gain and glory' amounts to priestcraft in my book. And LDS being human (last time I checked) are open to this temptation as well.

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Ken's Simplified Definitions for Simpletons

Priestcraft: "Follow me."

Priesthood: "Follow Christ."

Of course, don't just take my word for it... After all, that would be... priestcraft! :P<_<

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As a tax prparer, this is incorrect. Living expenses for ministers are not taxed as income by the IRS.

http://www.irs.gov/faqs/faq4-10.html 

The link above is for housing allowance, which is different than an individuals total living expenses. The minister receives a salary plus housing allowance. The housing allowance is not considered reportable income. The housing allowance covers the rent for the home, garage and utilities. One must have an income to cover food and clothing and personal expenses.

We have no idea what salary or stipend church leaders receive, as we are not privy to that information. We do not know what their stipend does or does not include. I am sure that their needs are met in the same manner that the needs of other ministers are met. The needs are met via money and benefits. Its increase.

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Which makes the Primary song "Follow the Prophet" a little problematic.

What about just "follow the bretheren" or "follow the Bishop, SP, sustaining leaders etc."

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(Kenngo1969 @ Feb 14 2005, 12:04 PM)

Priestcraft: "Follow me."

Which makes the Primary song "Follow the Prophet" a little problematic.

Not at all; the Prophet says: follow Christ. Also, it is the Savior who tells us to follow [his] the prophet.

StBalthasar's Addendum to Kenngo1969's Definitions for Simpletons:

priestcraft Follow the profit.

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I would recommend everyone re-read D&C 84. By this ye may know who the true disciples of Christ are. If they didnt have Christ's gospel what would all preachers even be selling? This also applies to Mormon leaders by the way. A good article on priestcraft can also be found at http://www.mormontheology.com/forms/priestcraft.aspx

We must be careful lest we become as the Nephites of old and sell Christ for gold and silver as the BofM puts it. [Temple content edited by moderator]

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