Popular Post BlueDreams Posted May 19, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 19, 2017 On 4/30/2017 at 11:57 PM, cinepro said: This is an interesting study, and I wonder if it will affect how the Church deals with people who look at pornography: Here is the source citation for the original study: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499.2017.1295013?journalCode=hjsr20& So I could have probably mentioned this earlier, but I wanted to make sure before I did. I know one of the researchers on the original study. I had a minute to talk to the person today. They mentioned frustrations about having their paper "misrepresented" by the psych today article. We acknowledged the tendency for any article to do so and they mentioned the writer's bias (which is basically that no sex or porn addiction or porn problem really exists). I asked their opinion of what their research showed. Which was basically that having certain religious misconceptions about pornography, sex, etc can exacerbate a problem with pornography. Not that it creates it and not that it doesn't exist. Just that it can exacerbate what's already there. At which point both of us just shrugged and agreed and said something along the lines of "oh, well duh." We both also disagreed with the author's thought that there isn't a problem with porn addiction or whatever you may call it. It's also important to note that the Psych Today article now has an addendum to it from one of the main researchers that states the following. Bold emphasis mine: Quote *Addendum. In interest of transparency and recognition that the researchers always best know their own research, I am adding the below text of an email from Dr. Brian Willoughby, one of this study's authors. I reached out to him for review of this piece. I think it's important to always listen to the researchers, rather than develop and feed our own opinions...Dr. Willoughby suggests some refined interpretation of the results, and I humbly defer to his wisdom: "Happy to give you some thoughts/feedback. First, yes I do think that there is enough evidence to suggest baseline, weak negative effects [of pornography use]for the average user. Every meta-analysis to my knowledge has shown negative effects and those effects (including several longitudinal studies recently) seem pretty consistent to me. Of course, with population-based statistics, that doesn't mean every person or couple will experience negative effects (and I do think 90% of the people commenting on this topic miss the mark on what those effects are). As I've mentioned to you, I also think there are important moderators at work (gender, religiosity, etc.) that change (lessen or exaggerate) those effects. > > In terms of your write-up, while I think you generally did a good job of reporting the findings of the study, I do think your conclusions were a bit off base. I'll suggest two points where I think this happened. First, I think there was an over-reaching on your part regarding the religiosity finding. Rather than note that being religious is one possible factor that might contribute to increased perception of addiction, your article suggests it's the only factor (and this has been the main take-away I've seen people have in the media). Second, I think you lost sight that our outcome variable was simply anxiety about discussing or disclosing porn use to others (hardly a strong indicator of overall well-being or functioning). I noticed that you started to generalize about halfway through the piece, giving the reader the impression that we studied well-being indicators when it comes to porn use. Whether I have anxiety talking to people about pornography doesn't speak in my mind to if pornography is having an effect on depression, couple satisfaction, or any meaningful indicator of well-being. > > For example, you stated, "The BYU study found further results which support the idea that it's not porn use, but rather the belief in porn addiction and the conflict with religion, which predict porn-related problems." This sentence illustrates both of my above points. First, you noted that it's not porn use but religion and perception of addiction causing "problems". However, the study actually found that porn use itself was also a significant predictor of perception of addiction along with religiosity. So if religiosity is causing anxiety and negative perceptions (what you call "problems"), porn use is as well (independent of religiosity). Secondly, the use of the term "porn-related problems" is going to mislead (even unintentionally) most readers into thinking we assessed well-being in regards to porn use. Sadly, very few people are going to read the actual study and use of terms like "negative outcomes" or "problems" I think gave people the wrong impression. > > Later on, you noted that: "In one analysis, the researchers controlled for the effects of both religion and self-perceived porn addiction and found that, for such people, increased porn use actually decreased relationship anxiety about porn." Again, this is accurate but you failed to note that this finding was only true in the full model where pornography use did predict perception of addiction and increased anxiety. Your suggested reason for this finding I think can be true for some people, but there is clearly something else going on as well (in my opinion, I think our analysis was likely doing a bit of separation between those who are compulsively using and those who are not). Bottom-line, there's a lot more complexity here and I think most people's take away from your write-up is that this is simply about religious people making their own problem, which I don't think the paper suggests." The gist is that pornography in and of itself can have negative outcomes and problems with use. These problems and perception of addiction can be tied to religiosity as well as porn use. And that porn use itself may be causing anxiety and negative perceptions. And that it's no where near as simple and religion makes porn a problem. Porn makes porn a problem, there's just other factors that can exacerbate it. For those curious about research I also think it's important to point out that the researcher (and Willoughby is pretty prolific of a researcher if I remember correctly from my program) stated that a lot of research is generally finding that there are at least weak effects for just the AVERAGE user. Not just the porn addict or compulsive user or one into fringe/variant porn. The AVERAGE one. In other words for most people, porn does have negative effects, however slight, in and of itself. I would suggest that the church is not off in warning against porn because of that....but it could do a better job in teaching about it in more realistic terms to reduce beliefs or behaviors that could exacerbate the existing problems. With luv, BD 9 Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 6 hours ago, mfbukowski said: ... Addicts never see the problem- that IS the problem. They think the only problem is people who tell the addict that he has a problem. It's called "denial". And it ain't a river in Egypt. 1 Link to comment
MorningStar Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 On 5/19/2017 at 10:44 AM, mfbukowski said: Exactly. The problem is now so pervasive that the researches themselves become complicit in the problem. It's like alcoholics saying there is only a problem with alcoholism if you think there is. The entire point is THERE IS A PROBLEM Your beliefs are what create you as a person. Those guys in prison only crave freedom because they think incarceration is a problem. Oppressed people have no problems- they are all in their minds, you just have to cure them from thinking they have a problem being oppressed. That's just life as they know it. Why do people not stand up for themselves and revolt? What about North Korea? The people do not see the problem AS a problem. Addicts never see the problem- that IS the problem. They think the only problem is people who tell the addict that he has a problem. It's called "denial". + eleventy million Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 On 5/15/2017 at 11:02 AM, SteveO said: I was reading through the headlines this morning, and saw this study from Newsweek, and I thought of this thread. Basically says that porn is ruining the sex lives of white, heterosexual men who are married. Not really sure if those with sexual dysfunction prefer or gravitate towards porn, or if porn makes one sexually dysfunctional. Either way I think its a crutch and an escape for people who can't deal with the stress of everyday life--no different from alcohol or anything else that serves as a distraction. There was a guy that my wife knew who killed himself a few weeks ago. He obviously had some problems, but I do know what triggered his downward spiral was his confession to his sometime girlfriend of his porn use. He was going to ask her to marry him and thought he should tell her. She broke up with him. I can't help but think he was having some serious shame and feelings of worthlessness. I'm not really sure what the answer is, we keep hearing the dishonesty is the biggest issue with porn in relationships, but if honesty is going to get you that...I dunno. She is naive and foolish if she thinks there isn't a guy who is "untouched" by pornography. Anyways, I think the practical reasons for avoiding pornography are pretty clear, but there is a shame culture within the church that needs to change regarding it. EDIT: I can't link to the story for some reason, its from Newsweek though!! Could you give some specifics about the shame culture? Are warnings to avoid it shaming? Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) On 5/18/2017 at 9:05 AM, MorningStar said: If a Mormon man looks at pornography frequently despite negative consequences and he's not addicted, then he's just a guy who chooses to look at porn even though he might lose his wife, job, etc.? Why would anyone choose to do that unless they're addicted? I went to a fireside put on by LDS Family Services and the therapist said she wished our quorums could be our support groups, but we're still too judgmental to handle such a thing. We go to church and pretend we don't have any big issues. We talk about more minor things we're guilty of - the acceptable sins. Shame and secrecy drive addiction. One investigator came to visit our ward as young adult and the lesson was on pornography. Being new, he blurted out, "I struggle with that." My husband told me about it and that it was actually kind of refreshing hearing his honesty and openness. Not calling it an addiction isn't going to make it go away. If all our sins had a distinctive odor like marijuana or tobacco smoke, none of us would come to church. It would make worthiness interviews much easier, however, "Ahhh...I smell avarice and pride and a hint of lust, brother." Porn usage and other deviancy can be masked for decades, but eventually they will be manifested, usually by carelessness such as leaving a webpage open or being surprised by a spouse or child while dressed in the wife's clothing. It's the years of hiding, the false pretenses, and the resultant shock of betrayal to the other parties that do the damage to the relationship. On a previous thread I mentioned the question a friend whose marriage was nearly destroyed by pornography suggested that women contemplating marriage ask their suitor...."When was the last time you viewed pornography?" That got excoriated by many here, but frankly, how are we to deal with this as it becomes more commonplace and more destructive? When you get right down to it, pornography and porn dependence are intensely personal, ugly, and dangerous behaviors, and demeaning to producers and users. Where and when should it become disclosed and discussed openly? Edited May 22, 2017 by Bernard Gui 2 Link to comment
Meerkat Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 On 5/1/2017 at 10:42 PM, Bernard Gui said: Have you ever spoken with a real porn addict or with someone who loves him/her? Yes. We have two children who left the Church, Temple marriages, their own children and estranged their parents and siblings due to the effects of pornography. They rely on the BYU and similar studies to prove they are not addicts. Another "proof" is that when they left the Church, their pornography use went way down. They have now replaced it with another obsession, attacking the Church, Church history and Church leaders. Speaking with them is toxic. They constantly take offense at innocuous comments. They are paranoid. Does religiosity heighten the awareness that pornography is a sin? Probably. Does the religious taboo increase activity? Possibly. My point would be that, addiction or not, pornography destroys relationships, faith, self esteem and testimony. It chases away the Holy Ghost. We watched their homes, relationships, faith and jobs crumble to nothing. One can't hold down a job or relationship. The other, a college grad, just lost his job. I think it's a mistake to minimize the many effects of pornography on those who view it, and those who love them. Link to comment
Calm Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 They have misunderstood the study then. 1 Link to comment
probablyHagoth7 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) On 5/2/2017 at 3:15 PM, cinepro said: That's what I don't understand. How are people losing their families, jobs and children because they look at pornography (the study addresses why they are losing their self-respect and faith)? This is likely answered elsewhere, but from what I've read here, I would imagine that since maintaining/building relationships is key to families, job, and children, that if one has relationship anxiety (which I just might have in spades) but turns to *any* other means as a quick fix instead of addressing/healing that root cause, the ability to manage relationships only gets worse...resulting in loss of things that matter. So once again, I'm the one that needs to change. Figures. That does it, none of you who contributed to this thread are getting Christmas cards ever again. Seriously though, this thread has been surprisingly/extremely helpful. Thank you very much to Cinepro for launching it, and for others who contributed to it. Gotta scoot. Edited May 25, 2017 by probablyHagoth7 2 Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 9 hours ago, Meerkat said: Yes. We have two children who left the Church, Temple marriages, their own children and estranged their parents and siblings due to the effects of pornography. They rely on the BYU and similar studies to prove they are not addicts. Another "proof" is that when they left the Church, their pornography use went way down. They have now replaced it with another obsession, attacking the Church, Church history and Church leaders. Speaking with them is toxic. They constantly take offense at innocuous comments. They are paranoid. Does religiosity heighten the awareness that pornography is a sin? Probably. Does the religious taboo increase activity? Possibly. My point would be that, addiction or not, pornography destroys relationships, faith, self esteem and testimony. It chases away the Holy Ghost. We watched their homes, relationships, faith and jobs crumble to nothing. One can't hold down a job or relationship. The other, a college grad, just lost his job. I think it's a mistake to minimize the many effects of pornography on those who view it, and those who love them. Thank you for your heart-felt comments. Arguing over whether or not it is an addiction is moot. I don't understand why some here defend it. The bottom line is that pornography is a blight and nothing good comes from it. In a medical study, the most relevant question cannot be asked... "When you turn on the porn do you feel the Holy Spirit leave you?" 1 Link to comment
Meerkat Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 I attend a Family Addiction Recovery group. It has been my wife's and my lifeline. We have two children, returned missionaries, who left their spouses, children and Temple marriages due to this awful affliction. They also left the Church and have estranged themselves from their parents and siblings. It's been three very long years. Last week, one reached out to attempt a connection. My wife has been devastated by the estrangement all these years. She has endured countless sleepless nights, many Priesthood blessings, tearful conversations that focused on "What happened to our once loving and connected family?" One family member and her family left the state due to the rejection and family drama caused by her two siblings. Most of the few contacts we have had have started with reaching out with a birthday present or newsy email. The response coming back has typically been a variation of "I'm not interested in you, anything you have or anything you have to say." Yet this child reached out on Mothers Day to wish his Mom Happy Mother's Day. A first. She has recently found her anger at this unfair rejection, after years of accepting the emotional abuse, and sent him an email stating she would like to meet and discuss boundaries. His response was to tell us he thought he was ready, but could see we were as uncomfortable with him as he is with us, and no, there will be no reconciliation at this time. I'd like to thank Pogi for his insightful post describing relationship anxiety. Your description is so very helpful to two heartbroken parents who have been struggling to understand what has happened to our family. I have hope I can reach out to this child that we love, address and begin to diffuse the anxiety. As time has gone by, my wife and I can see ourselves drifting into relationship anxiety where we would just as soon wall ourselves off from these children for our own emotional safety. That's not what we want though. We love them. We miss them. We want them back in our lives. I hope your comments give us a path back to a real family relationship once more. Regarding those on this thread who seem to make light of addiction, I sympathize with you. I went for many years feeling I had all the answers. "Just pray, read the Scriptures, talk with your bishop, snap out of it you knucklehead." (I left out the knucklehead part.) I never had a clue what this addiction could do to families until it happened to mine. Then, looking around, my eyes began to open to all the people in our ward and Stake who who sit in lonely isolation, probably believing they are alone in their grief. They are not. It is all around us. The family is under severe attack. I believe there are but few that have not been impacted by this. When it becomes apparent, it us as if a bomb has gone off in one's beloved family shattering relationships and our view of ourselves and what we thought we were working toward. I'marveled talking about our eternal family unit. If Satan can isolate us from each other, if he can keep us from trying to understand what has happened and working on it, we become casualties in this war for our souls. Listen to Pogi. Listen to Bernard. They are on the right track. Understanding these things can help us heal individually, as families, churches, and our troubled world. I wonder if all this contention isn't a manifestation of relationship anxiety starting at the family level. Thanks Bernard, for this important thread. 1 Link to comment
Meerkat Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 On 5/2/2017 at 3:58 PM, Bernard Gui said: Everyone in this discussion should be listening to you and understanding this. In our groups we discuss precisely what you are describing here. There is so much misunderstanding.....and some of it seems to be intentional. Folks....here is a good brother who is willing to share his experience. What a wonderful opportunity to find some enlightenment. I attend a Family Addiction Recovery group. It has been my wife's and my lifeline. We have two children, returned missionaries, who left their spouses, children and Temple marriages due to this awful affliction. They also left the Church and have estranged themselves from their parents and siblings. It's been three very long years. Last week, one reached out to attempt a connection. My wife has been devastated by the estrangement all these years. She has endured countless sleepless nights, many Priesthood blessings, tearful conversations that focused on "What happened to our once loving and connected family?" One family member and her family left the state due to the rejection and family drama caused by her two siblings. Most of the few contacts we have had have started with reaching out with a birthday present or newsy email. The response coming back has typically been a variation of "I'm not interested in you, anything you have or anything you have to say." Yet this child reached out on Mothers Day to wish his Mom Happy Mother's Day. A first. She has recently found her anger at this unfair rejection, after years of accepting the emotional abuse, and sent him an email stating she would like to meet and discuss boundaries. His response was to tell us he thought he was ready, but could see we were as uncomfortable with him as he is with us, and no, there will be no reconciliation at this time. I'd like to thank Pogi for his insightful post describing relationship anxiety. Your description is so very helpful to two heartbroken parents who have been struggling to understand what has happened to our family. I have hope I can reach out to this child that we love, address and begin to diffuse the anxiety. As time has gone by, my wife and I can see ourselves drifting into relationship anxiety where we would just as soon wall ourselves off from these children for our own emotional safety. That's not what we want though. We love them. We miss them. We want them back in our lives. I hope your comments give us a path back to a real family relationship once more. Regarding those on this thread who seem to make light of addiction, I sympathize with you. I went for many years feeling I had all the answers. "Just pray, read the Scriptures, talk with your bishop, snap out of it you knucklehead." (I left out the knucklehead part.) I never had a clue what this addiction could do to families until it happened to mine. Then, looking around, my eyes began to open to all the people in our ward and Stake who who sit in lonely isolation, probably believing they are alone in their grief. They are not. It is all around us. The family is under severe attack. I believe there are but few that have not been impacted by this. When it becomes apparent, it us as if a bomb has gone off in one's beloved family shattering relationships and our view of ourselves and what we thought we were working toward. I'marveled talking about our eternal family unit. If Satan can isolate us from each other, if he can keep us from trying to understand what has happened and working on it, we become casualties in this war for our souls. Listen to Pogi. Listen to Bernard. They are on the right track. Understanding these things can help us heal individually, as families, churches, and our troubled world. I wonder if all this contention isn't a manifestation of relationship anxiety starting at the family level. Thanks Bernard, for this important discussion. Link to comment
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