The foolish life of living with the Spirit

[Kenngo1969]

On 4/29/2017 at 0:04 PM, JulieM said:

I don't know your situation, but do you regret going to law school?  (Sincere question).

If so, this talk could apply ( if you felt you received an answer to prayer to persevere and finish).  

It seems as though nearly everything that has happened to me since the moment I graduated has been calculated to make me regret going to law school, but, no, I don't.  (The one caveat to that pronouncement might be the debt I've incurred.)  If I had been more in tune at the time (behavioral health issues played a role in the fact that I wasn't) I would have been better able to recognize the Francis Webster, "Hey, I've reached my spot in the distance, and, inexplicably, I'm still going ... as if propelled by some unseen force" perspective.  Largely, that perspective was gained in hindsight.  While this may be a gross oversimplification (and again, I've realized this largely in hindsight), the choice was pretty stark: "Sure, you don't have to go to law school ... if you don't mind answering phones all workday, every workday for the rest of your working life."  

True, I've struggled to write the kind of ending to this story that "following-the-Spirit" stories are "supposed" to have, and earthly wisdom would conclude that, "Well, that's easy: The reason why you struggled so much, both during law school and after graduating, is because it simply isn't for you."  Well-meaning folks who lack an eternal perspective have told me exactly that.  But, "The things of God knoweth no man, save the spirit of God which is in him" (1 Corinthians 2:11).

Edited April 30, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

While many people might conclude that facing such stiff headwinds while endeavoring earnestly to do what's right and to do what he thinks God wants him to do might be a sign that God wants him to do something different or that it might be a sign of God's disfavor, I don't look at it that way.  

As much as I might hope a given employer will hire me, that employer and its powers-that-be still have the choice not to; as much as I might hope that the Bar might weigh the evidence I offer differently, it  and its powers-that-be still have the choice to refuse to allow me to sit for the Bar exam; and so on.  Like Duncan, all I can do is the best I can do to do what I believe is right: I can't control how any other person chooses to use his agency or how any group chooses to use its agency.

"I know not the meaning of all things.  Nevertheless, I know that [God] loveth his children." (1 Nephi 11:17).  The only guarantee we have is what will happen to us in the long run (i.e., in the eternal scheme of things) as we remain faithful. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees that we will avoid short-run dead ends, detours, disappointments, frustrations, earthly consequences of our own choices (in some ways, I've been my own worst enemy, I'll admit), man's inhumanity to man, and so on.

[Kenngo1969]

It's much easier to discern being led by the Spirit when we know the outcome.  For example, there are two possible ways I might get to work: I might take State Street/US-89, or I might take I-15.  If I normally take US-89 but feel prompted to take I-15 instead, and I find out that there was a fatal traffic accident at, say, State Street/US-89 and Pleasant Grove Blvd., an intersection I would have passed if I had chosen to take that route, it's easy to discern that it wasn't my time (assuming my death would have resulted from the accident).  I don't want to minimize the heartache and sorrow of those who lose loved ones in such circumstances.  Beyond the fact that we live in a fallen world, I certainly don't know why my sister in law, who is one of the finest people I've ever known, died relatively young of cancer.  (I simply must trust that God knows all of the reasons I do not.)  What if I feel the same prompting, but there's no accident?  What if someone happened to run a red light but was not caught, was not cited, and was fortunate enough to not collide with anyone?  (And even in the case of a non-collision, I would never know he'd run the red light, because I wasn't there and because traffic tickets rarely if ever make the news.)  in that sense, spiritual promptings are like law enforcement: while we might know about many of the criminals they catch, we don't know how much crime they deter simply because of their presence.

[MorningStar]

The point of the story isn't about going down wrong paths.  It's that they didn't have to worry on their way home that they were driving down the wrong path for a long, long time.  It's an example as to how sometimes the answer to prayer can be confusing.  "Why would the Spirit tell us to go down the wrong path?"  For their peace of mind on the way home.  It's never a good feeling wondering if you went the wrong way for many miles.  There have been times I thought I was going the wrong way, turned around, and then finally realized it had been the right way after all.  

Edited August 12, 2017 by MorningStar

[stemelbow]

22 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

The point of the story isn't about going down wrong paths.  It's that they didn't have to worry on their way home that they were driving down the wrong path for a long, long time.  It's an example as to how sometimes the answer to prayer can be confusing.  "Why would the Spirit tell us to go down the wrong path?"  For their peace of mind on the way home.  It's never a good feeling wondering if you went the wrong way for many miles.  There have been times I thought I was going the wrong day, turned around, and then finally realized it had been the right way after all.  

They wouldn't have to have worried if God sent them down the right path from the start, no?  Why worry if God directs? 

[Kenngo1969]

18 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

They wouldn't have to have worried if God sent them down the right path from the start, no?  Why worry if God directs? 

I think you're too hung up on how they got the information which led them to know they made the right choice.  Why didn't God simply tell them what road to take?  At least in part because we're here to learn from our own experience.

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

They wouldn't have to have worried if God sent them down the right path from the start, no?  Why worry if God directs? 

Only if they knew it was the right path.

God may be directing, but it may not be through giving out constant, ongoing instruction or even reassurance.  And there is always the ability to receive God's direction or reassurance playing a factor.  It is not just about God being willing to direct us.

In a real life situation, for decades, even as a teenager, I attempted routines of exercise, following the pretty constant direction of doctors and experts.  Only problem was I never got the inner reassurance of feeling better over time that was promised.  In fact, a lot of times I would feel sick.  It never got easier either even if I could see after months some increase in muscle tone.  Never affected my weight or quality of sleep.  It was extremely hard to keep a routine because of this.  In essence, I was going down the right road, but was often stopping, wondering if I should even bother and then half heartedly starting again.  It became eventually a constant second guessing myself that maybe I was actually damaging my body rather than supporting it. 

Couple of years ago I got put on a thyroid supplement and suddenly I was getting the signs that everyone had been talking about.  I didn't have to take anyone else's word that exercise was a good thing for me, I was able to move from walking a mile without pain to 3 in just a few weeks; if my feet were decent I would be walking a minimum of five a day.  This consistent improvement lasted for several months.  Then the increase of energy sign disappeared and some others as well.

However, it is tons easier now to convince myself even when I don't feel better or stronger that I need to get moving.  I have seen the evidence for myself that it works for me instead of operating on faith my body isn't that different from anyone else's.

 Not the wrong road scenario, but same principle.  And if there had been an obvious decrease of health when I stopped exercising (the wrong road), that probably would have been as effective as getting a major, unable to explain away sign that exercise is good for me over all, after all. ((I just need to use a few adaptations most people don't).

Edited August 11, 2017 by Calm

[stemelbow]

47 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I think you're too hung up on how they got the information which led them to know they made the right choice.  Why didn't God simply tell them what road to take?  At least in part because we're here to learn from our own experience.

Perhaps so.  I'd rather take it as the error on Elder Holland and sons side wherein they thought  they got an answer from God, wherein God was more like, "it doesn't matter, numbnutses, you'll get home about the same time either way you go, so feel however you want on this unimportant prayer."

[stemelbow]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Only if they knew it was the right path.

God may be directing, but it may not be through giving out constant, ongoing instruction or even reassurance. 

Think of it as hours long driving down a highway with a speed limit sign only at the beginning, but plenty of traffic cops along the route cruising.  The sign applies to the whole stretch, until one sees a new sign...in essence the first is a constant instruction one can refer to through rememberance of seeing it...but only if we continue to trust our memory.  The sign is all that is necessary to know the limit as long as one sees it first, pays attention to it, and then doesn't let other things confuse one.

However, might not one begin to worry they didn't read the sign right and not drive as fast as they could out of fear of being caught speeding or be tempted to speed up if they saw others doing so because they reason that so many others doing something must demonstrate their memory or interpretation of it was wrong.

Otoh, if one missed the speed limit sign at the beginning and got stopped soon after by a cop who scolded one for paying attention to the scenery or other cars instead of to the signs, one' confidence in one' memory of the giving of direction would be much stronger.

Well that's just confusing.  I think it true that God allows us down wrong paths, as we seek His direction.  It's not that he inspires us down the wrogn way, though.  It's our weakness that gets in the way and we attribute our impressions to God.  I wish Elder Holland by using this story alluded to the not foolproof method we have, when we consult the Spirit relying on our spiritual impressions. 

[Kenngo1969]

45 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Perhaps so.  I'd rather take it as the error on Elder Holland and sons side wherein they thought  they got an answer from God, wherein God was more like, "it doesn't matter, numbnutses, you'll get home about the same time either way you go, so feel however you want on this unimportant prayer."

I don't think it's necessarily accurate to call it an "error."  Elder Holland and his son were looking for the correct route to take to get home.  They were provided with that information.  To say that the Holy Spirit always works by saying, "Pssst!  Take this road," or "Psst!  Don't take that road" is the error, I think.

[deli_llama]

I always like to think that if we are willing to be led by the Spirit, then we should be willing go follow wither it will; remembering we are choosing to follow an entity, a being, who is associated with images of the wind, and birds, and fire. Should we expect any but a strange and wonderous path?

And who says it is the right or wrong path?  The path you are lead down may not actually have anything to do with you, it may be part of a much larger series of events.

[stemelbow]

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't think it's necessarily accurate to call it an "error."  Elder Holland and his son were looking for the correct route to take to get home.  They were provided with that information.  To say that the Holy Spirit always works by saying, "Pssst!  Take this road," or "Psst!  Don't take that road" is the error, I think.

I'm agreeing with you, I think.  But I will say it will probably always be us mortals being the ones who misinterpret or mistake the message we should get from whatever inspiration that may come. 

[Calm]

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Well that's just confusing.  I think it true that God allows us down wrong paths, as we seek His direction.  It's not that he inspires us down the wrogn way, though.  It's our weakness that gets in the way and we attribute our impressions to God.  I wish Elder Holland by using this story alluded to the not foolproof method we have, when we consult the Spirit relying on our spiritual impressions. 

That is weird, I could swear I edited that before I posted to just use the one real life experience.

Only Elder Holland and his son can know for sure, but I tend to see such moments as God letting us know his will along the lines of 'sure, explore if you want, it won't make a difference to my plans for you'.

[Thinking]

On 4/28/2017 at 11:29 AM, stemelbow said:

Cute story, it's been shared all over the place, as you can see a video was made about it with touching music setting a mood.  But what does it tell us?

We can spin almost any situation toward our world view.

This reminds me of an old actuarial joke: The CEO of a large company met with a statistician and asked him to study the monthly data and report back to him what it says. The statistician asked, "What do you want it to say?"

[RevTestament]

On 4/28/2017 at 11:29 AM, stemelbow said:

I like to use the term foolproof when speaking of the workings of the Spirit, as in it's not foolproof (sorry if it's annoying to some, as I've used it here many times.  But I don't know a better way to put it).  We're all fools when it comes to God and the Spirit, I figure, so we're all going to make mistakes when dealing with the Spirit and it's influence.  I used to attribute the Spirit's influence in my life with telling me what's true, most often.  I'm not sure that's our best bet anymore, even if in some cases it can surely be a great tool in getting us to true stuff. But as the years have gone on and as I've been able to work with that influence that I call the Spirit, I've learned that He helps me identify what's good and what works for me, more so than what's true.  So I've kind of morphed from saying things like "the Church is true" (a phrase that feels meaningless to me now) to saying the Church has many good and helpful aspects.  The Spirit's influence and direction is individual and subjective.  One can be influenced by the Spirit and be Muslim or Buddhist, just as well, and perhaps in many cases better than one can be LDS and have the Spirit's influence.  That may sound anathema to some, or some might say, "well sure other's can feel the Spirit but given that LDS are given the gift of the Holy Ghost we get precedence as it is an extra blessing to us.  So we know more truth and have better access to God".  I doubt that's true.  The Spirit's great influence, I'd suggest, is to guide us into loving others and God.  This is difficult though.  We all love other people.  We may feel we're better at it than others, but I don't know how we gauge such things.  It's unfair of us to try.  We simply can't see enough. 

Recall with me, Elder Holland's story about following the spirit.  He and his son were driving down some dirt road, heading home.  On their way they came upon a fork in the road that they didn't expect which didn't look familiar.  They each prayed and felt like they should go down the one way which turned out to be wrong.  Elder Holland says that God wanted them to know they were going to be going down the right road when they did get going on the right road.  Something about the fastest way to know they were going the right way.  Cute story, it's been shared all over the place, as you can see a video was made about it with touching music setting a mood.  But what does it tell us?

God can direct any one of us in any direction so we can head down the wrong road for a while until we learn it to be wrong.  So we can be headed down the road that is the Church's path and learn at some point it is the wrong way.  We could have gotten married having felt so influenced by the Spirit in our decision to do so, only to see years later it was the wrong road and our kids might have to deal with the effects of our bad choice. 

Where I'm getting to is this.  If we pray and head down the road, learn its bad and try to correct it, then the Spirit has directed us so we can learn that it's was bad.  If we don't pray and head down a road learning it is good, what does that say about praying, The Spirit and us? 

We will never know if the Spirit's influence is getting us where we need to go, unless at some point he leads us in the wrong direction so we can learn for ourselves that it was wrong?  Does that idea work? 

Interested in thoughts on this very important topic. 

Zechariah 4:6

6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my ^aspirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

[Kenngo1969]

6 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Zechariah 4:6

6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my ^aspirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

RevTestament:

Cool scripture.   How, exactly, did you intend to relate it to this discussion?

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, Thinking said:

We can spin almost any situation toward our world view.

This reminds me of an old actuarial joke: The CEO of a large company met with a statistician and asked him to study the monthly data and report back to him what it says. The statistician asked, "What do you want it to say?"

There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics.

[Kenngo1969]

11 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I'm agreeing with you, I think.  But I will say it will probably always be us mortals being the ones who misinterpret or mistake the message we should get from whatever inspiration that may come. 

Now, we see "through a glass darkly."  There will come a time, however, when that will not the case.  While I don't necessarily think that God is simply the world's best micromanager (I've already worked for her, and it wasn't a pleasant experience ), if-and-when we review our lives with HIm, I do think that we will be surprised at the degree to which He had a hand in our mortal lives, many times in ways in which we were probably unaware at the time. And I think there is such a thing as "contingent inspiration." Perhaps things didn't work out as we were originally assured because we didn't "continue as we commenced," or perhaps someone else misused his or her agency.  While we're not necessarily assured of being spared short-term, temporary disappointments, frustrations, and detours, we are assured of long-term blessings and success.

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

RevTestament:

Cool scripture.   How, exactly, did you intend to relate it to this discussion?

It seems the Lord is telling us that He will accomplish His ends in the last days by His Spirit. However, there are many other Christians who come to this board or otherwise warn members that the Spirit is not trustworthy. I differ from Stemelbow's conclusion: "God can direct any one of us in any direction so we can head down the wrong road for a while until we learn it to be wrong.  So we can be headed down the road that is the Church's path and learn at some point it is the wrong way.  We could have gotten married having felt so influenced by the Spirit in our decision to do so, only to see years later it was the wrong road and our kids might have to deal with the effects of our bad choice."

Stemelbow seems to discount the importance of the Spirit, although he will probably disagree with me. God will allow us to make mistakes. In rare instances the spirit may even guide us there. However, I do not believe the spirit will guide us down a wrong road which will cause us to negatively impact others. We can learn from mistakes, but a life path which is a mistake is a different story. God does not want us to choose wrong paths for our lives, and negatively impact others. Spirits which lead us down these paths are of the adversary. They have learned how to influence our natural man and desires. We must guard against these types of thoughts and desires rather than follow them.

[Kenngo1969]

On 8/11/2017 at 0:27 PM, MorningStar said:

... There have been times I thought I was going the wrong way, turned around, and then finally realized it had been the right way after all.  

Speaking literally, speaking metaphorically, or both?  (Just curious ...)  

[Kenngo1969]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

That is weird, I could swear I edited that before I posted to just use the one real life experience.

Only Elder Holland and his son can know for sure, but I tend to see such moments as God letting us know his will along the lines of 'sure, explore if you want, it won't make a difference to my plans for you'.

Maybe I should have "explored" law school a little less.  

 

[california boy]

I think this is a little bit of a sensitive subject.  But it has been my experience that there are almost two different types of individuals.  Some who believe in the micro management God.  Everything that happens to you happens for a reason.  God will answer any questions I ask.  I just have to listen to the Spirit and then follow it.  If I got it wrong it is because God wanted me to get it wrong.  If I got it right, then it is proof that God micromanages every aspect of my life.  Sometimes I think they take their absolute view of God as proof of their faith in God.  It would be considered a weakness if they didn't ask God for directions.  They evidently have had success in believing in this outlook about God because they keep relying on it.

And then there is the other group.  This group takes a much broader view of how God guides our lives.  The long term goals are crystal clear.  How we get to those goals is a journey filled with life experiences, disappointments, joy and happiness.  God gives us our free agency to figure out the best way to reach those long term goals.  While they still may have great faith in God, they don't rely on that faith to answer every question they have.  For this group, they have found having a map seems to work better.  Or stopping at a gas station and asking for directions is a more reliable way to reach those short term goals works better than asking God.  They continue to follow this way of relying on God because it has been more successful for them to do so.  

Now, which group is the right group for you to be in?  That is something only you can decide.  There should not be a judgement from others on the choice you make.  I think it is why Elder Holland's story resinates with some people and doesn't with others.  In my opinion, I think it would be wrong of Elder Holland to suggest that everyone should jump to the micromanagement view of God just as it would be wrong to suggest that everyone should jump to the long term goal scenerio.  Perhaps that is not what he is suggesting at all.  But no one should feel guilty about which group they may fall in.  Those that do can also easily come up with a combination of the two groups.  

Part of my point is, our relationship with God should not be an eternal fight about what is the correct path to take.  We should be at peace with the path that we are on.  In this way I feel that God can be the most effective in leading us back to Him.

[MorningStar]

23 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Speaking literally, speaking metaphorically, or both?  (Just curious ...)  

Literally.  I was driving on a highway for a long time and there weren't any signs that said which direction it was.  My exit didn't come as soon as expected, so I thought I must have gotten on going the wrong way, so I turned around.  Drove until I knew for sure it was the wrong way, then turned around again.  It was late at night after riding for hours in my brother's cop car.  :-D  I didn't know the area and didn't have a GPS or anything.  

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, MorningStar said:

Literally.  I was driving on a highway for a long time and there weren't any signs that said which direction it was.  My exit didn't come as soon as expected, so I thought I must have gotten on going the wrong way, so I turned around.  Drove until I knew for sure it was the wrong way, then turned around again.  It was late at night after riding for hours in my brother's cop car.  :-D  I didn't know the area and didn't have a GPS or anything.  

Thanks.  How's your brother doing, anyway?  I know you posted sometime back about worrying for him because of his then pending/current assignment.

[Dexter Eli]

Elder Holland's talk and this discussion teach that one is better off following REASON than trying to figure out what the almighty would have us do.