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Study on Mormon women and depression


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Jana Reiss has another study about LDS women and depression. These are her findings: http://religionnews.com/2017/04/25/mormon-women-and-depression-revisited/

  • Age matters little, though younger women are a tiny bit more likely than older ones to take medication. It was interesting that in a survey that showed so much generational variation on other questions, this issue was similar across all four generations of LDS adults.
  • Employment matters a little but not very much. The rates for women who were unemployed and not looking for work were five points higher than those who worked full-time and just one point higher than those who worked part-time. So it’s possible that there’s a correlation between being a stay-at-home mother and being more likely to be depressed, but the difference is small. And correlation is not necessarily causation in any case.
  • Democrats are about nine points more likely to take medication than women who lean or vote Republican.
  • We see more significant difference related to church activity. Women who consider themselves “very active” Mormons are less likely to report taking medication for depression (22.5%) than women who are “not at all active” in the Church (35%).
  • Along those lines, about a quarter of women who believe “all or most Mormon teachings” have taken medication, compared to more than a third who doubt or find some Mormon teachings hard to believe.
  • Women who have no children at all are a little more likely to take medication for depression than women who have one, two, or three children. In families of four or more children, women are also a bit more likely take medication. Overall, the women who were least likely to take medication for depression were those with one, two, or three children.
  • There does seem to be a correlation with divorce. Women who were divorced were almost twice as likely as married women to have taken medication for depression (41% vs. 23%). Never-married women fall in the middle at 34%.

I hope these findings can put to rest some of the glib conclusions people have come to in the past. The reality is nuanced and complex.

The Deseret News also has an article on this topic. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865678684/Survey-explores-the-relationship-between-Mormon-women-and-depression.html 

 

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8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Lazy and distracted by laundry at the moment, were There comparisons to nonmembers as controls?

This is what she says about comparisons to non-members and why women have higher rates of depression than men. I don't think she surveyed non-members at all but tried to look at other studies. 

What is going on here? Are Mormon women really that much more depressed than Mormon men?

And if so, is it because the culture places unrealistic expectations on their shoulders to be perfect moms with flawless bodies and unwavering testimonies? Is it because more Mormons are stay-at-home moms than American women more generally, and are therefore cut off from the social networks and self-esteem that can come from paid employment? Both of these have been put forward as possible explanations.

Maybe. I am withholding judgment for a couple of reasons. First, the rate of Mormon women suffering from depression may actually be lower than the national average for women. The data on this is inconsistent, though; Timothy Heaton’s research has indeed found that “LDS women are significantly higher in depression than non-LDS women.” So there is no consensus here.

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21 minutes ago, Calm said:

Lazy and distracted by laundry at the moment, were There comparisons to nonmembers as controls?

She also said this:

The Fine Print

It’s difficult to get an answer to the “Mormon women vs. other women” question because the studies are all measuring slightly different things.

For example, the NMS had people agree or disagree with the statement, “I have taken or am currently taking medication for depression or another mental health issue.” This can tell us a lot, but it won’t tell us everything we want to know.

First, there’s the issue of non-specific mental health diagnoses. Depression is included here, yes, but so are many other possibilities, from ADHD to zoophobia and everything in between. So it’s hardly an apples-to-apples comparison.

Second, there’s the problem of timing: the question was worded to include anyone who has taken medication for mental health at any point in life, not just right now. So if you took it after your first child was born and you had postpartum depression, you’d still answer “yes” to the question even if you haven’t taken it for years.

And third, those who are taking or have taken medication aren’t the same as the wider population of those who might have – or ought to have – a mental health diagnosis.

It’s important to be responsible about what this question does and does not measure, but it’s also revealing to examine who in the Mormon world answered yes.

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These numbers are so depressingly high.  Earlier this week I was on a business trip and a lady who is a bit older and active LDS was on the trip as well.  She and I had many conversations and I learned that 10 years ago or so she was struck with depression, and was clinically diagnosed.  I would have never thought it.  But as it was she had one child just finishing high school and one in middle school and her husband had passed some couple years before.  It was interesting to hear her take on how it all started, and the difficulty it was.  She kept repeating that when you are suffering from mental illness you can't feel the Spirit.  I found that to be an odd idea, so I asked more and she suggested Church leaders had told her that, and by Church leaders I' mean the higher up ones like GAs.  I really hope that's not the case, and I really really hope that if it's not the case that Church leader's aren't preaching that. 

Sorry if I'm off topic here.  My memory was too fresh when I read your thread. 

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10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I found that to be an odd idea, so I asked more and she suggested Church leaders had told her that, and by Church leaders I' mean the higher up ones like GAs.  I really hope that's not the case, and I really really hope that if it's not the case that Church leader's aren't preaching that. 

Sorry if I'm off topic here.  My memory was too fresh when I read your thread. 

I think that other people on here who have had experiences with depression have said the same thing (that it is difficult to feel the spirit) but I can't remember who they were.   I've also heard of LDS psychologists speaking about that as well. 

It does make sense because often times one of the symptoms of depression is numbness to all feeling.

Why do you really really hope the church isn't acknowledging that.  Did you misunderstand and thought she meant that the church is teaching that those who are depressed aren't worthy to feel the spirit?

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10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think that other people on here who have had experiences with depression have said the same thing (that it is difficult to feel the spirit) but I can't remember who they were.   I've also heard of LDS psychologists speaking about that as well. 

It does make sense because often times one of the symptoms of depression is numbness to all feeling.

Why do you really really hope the church isn't acknowledging that.  Did you misunderstand and thought she meant that the church is teaching that those who are depressed aren't worthy to feel the spirit?

As we talked she repeated a couple of times "you can't feel the spirit" when you suffer the effects of mental illness.  it confused me because I would assume there may be some who might.  But she indicated that she was taught the spirit withdraws from one as they deal with mental illness, at least to the point of being able to deal with it (whatever that might mean).  She indicated  she was taught as much from leaders.  I believe she referenced a couple of apostles .  I told her I would be cautious about thinking this applies to all but she maintained it does. 

As I said, though, if some can still feel the spirit or do still feel the spirit it'd be a mistake for leaders to preach that they can't.  It's rarely universal, these rules, it seems to me.  If the Spirit does direct one who is suffering from mental illness, it'd be a shame for someone on the outside to get involved and suggest it is not the Spirit. 

Anywho, just my thoughts and concern. 

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2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

As we talked she repeated a couple of times "you can't feel the spirit" when you suffer the effects of mental illness.  it confused me because I would assume there may be some who might.  But she indicated that she was taught the spirit withdraws from one as they deal with mental illness, at least to the point of being able to deal with it (whatever that might mean).  She indicated  she was taught as much from leaders.  I believe she referenced a couple of apostles .  I told her I would be cautious about thinking this applies to all but she maintained it does. 

As I said, though, if some can still feel the spirit or do still feel the spirit it'd be a mistake for leaders to preach that they can't.  It's rarely universal, these rules, it seems to me.  If the Spirit does direct one who is suffering from mental illness, it'd be a shame for someone on the outside to get involved and suggest it is not the Spirit. 

Anywho, just my thoughts and concern. 

Yeah, the apostles have never taught that.   This was taught by Elder Holland in GC in 2013.  It's a good example of what the church teaches in regards to mental illness.

Like a Broken Vessel

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4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yeah, the apostles have never taught that.   This was taught by Elder Holland in GC in 2013.  It's a good example of what the church teaches in regards to mental illness.

Like a Broken Vessel

I don't know that we know they never taught that.  But we can guess.  Yes we discussed that talk.  I'm not sure if she's just misunderstood all these years or not.  But it was her impression

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lds.org in it's Mental Health section answered the question this way. https://www.lds.org/mentalhealth?lang=eng

An inability to feel the Spirit, or a general feeling of apathy or numbness, is often a symptom of poor mental health. God has not forsaken you. Even Christ, in the Garden of Gethsemane, felt the Spirit withdraw for a time, but then God sent an angel to support Him (see Luke 22:41–44). Consider for a moment that the Spirit may be communicating with you in a different way than you have experienced thus far in your life. When you struggle to feel the Spirit, or to feel anything at all, try combining these suggestions with prayer as you are able: 

 

I can’t feel the Spirit. Is it my fault that I’m struggling? Do I just need more faith?

An inability to feel the Spirit, or a general feeling of apathy or numbness, is often a symptom of poor mental health. God has not forsaken you. Even Christ, in the Garden of Gethsemane, felt the Spirit withdraw for a time, but then God sent an angel to support Him (see Luke 22:41–44). Consider for a moment that the Spirit may be communicating with you in a different way than you have experienced thus far in your life. When you struggle to feel the Spirit, or to feel anything at all, try combining these suggestions with prayer as you are able:

  • Counsel with others. Make every effort to counsel together with your family, bishop, or mental health professional. Thoughtfully implement helpful recommendations. 
  • Remember what you knew. Find an old journal entry that describes a spiritual experience or talk to someone you trust. Have that person remind you of personal strengths, spiritual experiences, and testimony that you’ve shared with them in the past. 
  • Fill your home with light. Literally turn on lights or sit in the sunshine. Play uplifting music, listen to talks from general conference, look at artwork, or read the scriptures or another good book. Make your home a place of peace where the Spirit can dwell. 
  • Check in with yourself. Consider whether or not you can feel anything right now. If you feel numb or disconnected, talk to a trusted friend, family member, or Church leader, or seek professional help. 

I feel mental illness is such a broad term. I think in some cases, people may have an illness where they cannot feel the spirit but for others, the spirit can still be felt. 

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1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

These numbers are so depressingly high.  Earlier this week I was on a business trip and a lady who is a bit older and active LDS was on the trip as well.  She and I had many conversations and I learned that 10 years ago or so she was struck with depression, and was clinically diagnosed.  I would have never thought it.  But as it was she had one child just finishing high school and one in middle school and her husband had passed some couple years before.  It was interesting to hear her take on how it all started, and the difficulty it was.  She kept repeating that when you are suffering from mental illness you can't feel the Spirit.  I found that to be an odd idea, so I asked more and she suggested Church leaders had told her that, and by Church leaders I' mean the higher up ones like GAs.  I really hope that's not the case, and I really really hope that if it's not the case that Church leader's aren't preaching that. 

Sorry if I'm off topic here.  My memory was too fresh when I read your thread. 

Lifetime prevelance for mental disorders in general is high. And depression (next to Anxiety, which tend to go hand in hand anyways) are among the highest. You generally can't tell who's struggled with it just by looking at someone. 3 of my closest friends (out of 4) have had depression at some point. One you may be able to guess that she's struggled, but the other two not at all. I, myself, had a very mild episode at the beginning of my mission, though I didn't necessarily label it as such at the time. I called it a deep sorrow that was tied to not addressing hurts from my childhood. When I did, it went away. But technically it meets the criteria for depression.  

It can be difficult to feel the spirit when like this. At least one of my friends has explicitly stated such. Especially if it's severe. But I don't think I've ever heard it stated that you never could or that the spirit withdraws. If I had to find an analogy its more like finding a beam from a flash flight on land when your in the middle of a storm in choppy water. It's there, it's just hard to see and difficult to understand because there's so much else going on inside the person that tends to drag them down.

I have never heard a GA make such an absolute. It may be the problem of a game of telephone and her own interpretation of what was said....not actually what the GA meant.

With luv,

BD 

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20 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

lds.org in it's Mental Health section answered the question this way. https://www.lds.org/mentalhealth?lang=eng

An inability to feel the Spirit, or a general feeling of apathy or numbness, is often a symptom of poor mental health. God has not forsaken you. Even Christ, in the Garden of Gethsemane, felt the Spirit withdraw for a time, but then God sent an angel to support Him (see Luke 22:41–44). Consider for a moment that the Spirit may be communicating with you in a different way than you have experienced thus far in your life. When you struggle to feel the Spirit, or to feel anything at all, try combining these suggestions with prayer as you are able: 

 

I can’t feel the Spirit. Is it my fault that I’m struggling? Do I just need more faith?

An inability to feel the Spirit, or a general feeling of apathy or numbness, is often a symptom of poor mental health. God has not forsaken you. Even Christ, in the Garden of Gethsemane, felt the Spirit withdraw for a time, but then God sent an angel to support Him (see Luke 22:41–44). Consider for a moment that the Spirit may be communicating with you in a different way than you have experienced thus far in your life. When you struggle to feel the Spirit, or to feel anything at all, try combining these suggestions with prayer as you are able:

  • Counsel with others. Make every effort to counsel together with your family, bishop, or mental health professional. Thoughtfully implement helpful recommendations. 
  • Remember what you knew. Find an old journal entry that describes a spiritual experience or talk to someone you trust. Have that person remind you of personal strengths, spiritual experiences, and testimony that you’ve shared with them in the past. 
  • Fill your home with light. Literally turn on lights or sit in the sunshine. Play uplifting music, listen to talks from general conference, look at artwork, or read the scriptures or another good book. Make your home a place of peace where the Spirit can dwell. 
  • Check in with yourself. Consider whether or not you can feel anything right now. If you feel numb or disconnected, talk to a trusted friend, family member, or Church leader, or seek professional help. 

I feel mental illness is such a broad term. I think in some cases, people may have an illness where they cannot feel the spirit but for others, the spirit can still be felt. 

That looks pretty good.  I hope she has a better view of the teachings than what I got from her.

I remember growing up and the terrible view church members had regarding suicide.  It used to go around among LDS, that those who commited suicide were automatically heading to Telestial or lower.  I think that's been cleared up by leaders since. 

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11 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Lifetime prevelance for mental disorders in general is high. And depression (next to Anxiety, which tend to go hand in hand anyways) are among the highest. You generally can't tell who's struggled with it just by looking at someone. 3 of my closest friends (out of 4) have had depression at some point. One you may be able to guess that she's struggled, but the other two not at all. I, myself, had a very mild episode at the beginning of my mission, though I didn't necessarily label it as such at the time. I called it a deep sorrow that was tied to not addressing hurts from my childhood. When I did, it went away. But technically it meets the criteria for depression.  

It can be difficult to feel the spirit when like this. At least one of my friends has explicitly stated such. Especially if it's severe. But I don't think I've ever heard it stated that you never could or that the spirit withdraws. If I had to find an analogy its more like finding a beam from a flash flight on land when your in the middle of a storm in choppy water. It's there, it's just hard to see and difficult to understand because there's so much else going on inside the person that tends to drag them down.

I have never heard a GA make such an absolute. It may be the problem of a game of telephone and her own interpretation of what was said....not actually what the GA meant.

With luv,

BD 

GAs have made many absolutes though, so I wouldn't doubt if someone said something that caused her to have that impression.

Anyway, I was concerned and sad about it.

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I think it may be worth tacking down a working definition of "the spirit" when having a conversation like this.  However, I am going to add a two cents without doing that.

I struggled deeply with mental health challenges (which are actually physical health challenges with mental consequences) for over two decades.  I know from experience that I have had to wrestle deeply with "feeling" (?????) the spirit, which were horrible, lonely, self-condemning moments; BUT over time, I can look back and see that I have engaged and learned so much about what that really means--feeling, hearing, living by, etc, the spirit.  My challenges have forced me to seek for a deeper understanding, so at this point, I'm grateful for what I've learned.  (But that's the nature of all trials--hurt like crazy, but we do get gifts of knowledge and understanding.) I can see that I have been supported by my covenants, which I consider to be an operation of the spirit; but this support of the spirit did not come as a FEELING. I absolutely know what endless numbness is where you can't feel anything, much less the spirit.  So I had to learn to look for signs of God in my life that didn't rely on FEELING.  (I still do.  I am not a fan of FEELING the spirit, per se.)

The idea that our body must be well and that we must keep our body 'clean' in order to feel the spirit is definitely in the gospel.  For example, the excessive use of alcohol would be a blocker to the spirit, yes?  Why? Is it--wow--possible that CHEMISTRY and ELECTRIC NERVOUS SYSTEM has to do with whether or not we can receive energy (spirit) messages?  Yes, it's more than possible.  It's a fact (NOT a condemnation, just the way it is).  Is it possible that we actually receive messages from God (spirit) through our BODIES (and not bypassing our bodies)? Yes.

Anyway, these are the conclusions I have come to from a lifetime of experiences (of which would be termed mental illness).  For what they are worth.  It doesn't mean we don't have the right to the spirit, but it does mean that there is a challenge to actually being able to receive it and be blessed by it in real time, daily--not at least without a journey of great faith.  I'm not stating this as gospel, although I could find support for it, and implied as much in the previous paragraph; I am stating this as I had to live through it minute by minute for far too long.

Edited by Maidservant
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I'm helping my child edit a paper on the dangers of technology and the addictive qualities of the internet. This board must have designed the 'reputation points' to trigger the brains reward center and keep us returning again and again and again. ;)

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2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

GAs have made many absolutes though, so I wouldn't doubt if someone said something that caused her to have that impression.

Anyway, I was concerned and sad about it.

I'm not denying that GA's can make absolutes. I'm pointing out that people can also interpret them as such and without an actual quote, but a retelling that is currently 3rd person in source materials, there's a far higher likelihood that nuance has been lost. I've seen that happen on this board where someone will state that this or that GA said something really out there and extreme. Then, when I find the quote in context it's often not nearly as bad as it first sounded. Plus, Bsjkki's quote from the official source shows piece of what you heard....but framed in a different context that isn't as extreme. So it would lends credence to the idea that through word of mouth, some things were lost in translation.

 

With luv,

BD

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32 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I'm not denying that GA's can make absolutes. I'm pointing out that people can also interpret them as such and without an actual quote, but a retelling that is currently 3rd person in source materials, there's a far higher likelihood that nuance has been lost. I've seen that happen on this board where someone will state that this or that GA said something really out there and extreme. Then, when I find the quote in context it's often not nearly as bad as it first sounded. Plus, Bsjkki's quote from the official source shows piece of what you heard....but framed in a different context that isn't as extreme. So it would lends credence to the idea that through word of mouth, some things were lost in translation.

 

With luv,

BD

Oh I agree.  That's why I'm lamenting I hope her view is closer to what bsjkki's quoted rather than what I got from her earlier this week.

 

thanks.

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5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

These numbers are so depressingly high.  Earlier this week I was on a business trip and a lady who is a bit older and active LDS was on the trip as well.  She and I had many conversations and I learned that 10 years ago or so she was struck with depression, and was clinically diagnosed.  I would have never thought it.  But as it was she had one child just finishing high school and one in middle school and her husband had passed some couple years before.  It was interesting to hear her take on how it all started, and the difficulty it was.  She kept repeating that when you are suffering from mental illness you can't feel the Spirit.  I found that to be an odd idea, so I asked more and she suggested Church leaders had told her that, and by Church leaders I' mean the higher up ones like GAs.  I really hope that's not the case, and I really really hope that if it's not the case that Church leader's aren't preaching that. 

Sorry if I'm off topic here.  My memory was too fresh when I read your thread. 

I was on anti-depressant medication for several years that prevented me from feeling the Spirit, within a week of not taking it I could tell my awareness was back along with a deeper awareness of others.  The drug was the wrong thing for me as .I was sleep deprived, not depressed (decades long misdiagnosis), but it taught me up close and personal how the physical can affect mental, emotional, and spiritual.  

Our brain is the mechanism through which all our experience is processed.  It seems to me totally non controversial that something which affects the physical nature of the brain will affect all of our perceptions, whatever the source, for good or ill.

It has nothing to do with worthiness though unless one is intentionally breaking commandments to achieve an altered state.

Edited by Calm
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29 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Oh I agree.  That's why I'm lamenting I hope her view is closer to what bsjkki's quoted rather than what I got from her earlier this week.

 

thanks.

Can you talk to her about to find out?

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2 hours ago, Maidservant said:

I think it may be worth tacking down a working definition of "the spirit" when having a conversation like this.  However, I am going to add a two cents without doing that.

I struggled deeply with mental health challenges (which are actually physical health challenges with mental consequences) for over two decades.  I know from experience that I have had to wrestle deeply with "feeling" (?????) the spirit, which were horrible, lonely, self-condemning moments; BUT over time, I can look back and see that I have engaged and learned so much about what that really means--feeling, hearing, living by, etc, the spirit.  My challenges have forced me to seek for a deeper understanding, so at this point, I'm grateful for what I've learned.  (But that's the nature of all trials--hurt like crazy, but we do get gifts of knowledge and understanding.) I can see that I have been supported by my covenants, which I consider to be an operation of the spirit; but this support of the spirit did not come as a FEELING. I absolutely know what endless numbness is where you can't feel anything, much less the spirit.  So I had to learn to look for signs of God in my life that didn't rely on FEELING.  (I still do.  I am not a fan of FEELING the spirit, per se.)

The idea that our body must be well and that we must keep our body 'clean' in order to feel the spirit is definitely in the gospel.  For example, the excessive use of alcohol would be a blocker to the spirit, yes?  Why? Is it--wow--possible that CHEMISTRY and ELECTRIC NERVOUS SYSTEM has to do with whether or not we can receive energy (spirit) messages?  Yes, it's more than possible.  It's a fact (NOT a condemnation, just the way it is).  Is it possible that we actually receive messages from God (spirit) through our BODIES (and not bypassing our bodies)? Yes.

Anyway, these are the conclusions I have come to from a lifetime of experiences (of which would be termed mental illness).  For what they are worth.  It doesn't mean we don't have the right to the spirit, but it does mean that there is a challenge to actually being able to receive it and be blessed by it in real time, daily--not at least without a journey of great faith.  I'm not stating this as gospel, although I could find support for it, and implied as much in the previous paragraph; I am stating this as I had to live through it minute by minute for far too long.

Very well said.

I turned to looking at other people, their actions and words to see the Spirit working in my life.  I was able to pick up promptings and reassurances of God 's love and presence in my life that way through comparison to previous experiences when .I had been aware of the Spirit.

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4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Can you talk to her about to find out?

She was just someone he sat next to on a plane.  I don't think he knows her other than in passing. 

Well I was wrong so never mind!  😆

Edited by bluebell
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3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

That looks pretty good.  I hope she has a better view of the teachings than what I got from her.

I remember growing up and the terrible view church members had regarding suicide.  It used to go around among LDS, that those who commited suicide were automatically heading to Telestial or lower.  I think that's been cleared up by leaders since. 

My uncle committed suicide back in 1981.  By then it was my experience there was the attitude "we can't judge individual cases so we will give everyone the benefit of the doubt" at least in the areas of CA, IL, and UT where I lived those years. I had been aware of that attitude at least ten years earlier in high school.  Nowadays I believe there is no attempt to theoretically divide suicides into not in their right mind and 'true' suicide (which was seen as an act of murder) and it is assumed that all suicides are suffering mentally and emotionally or they wouldn't consider it.

I have never heard it taught suicides would end up in Outer Darkness.  How is killing oneself interpreted as a rejection of the Gospel so profound it amounts to a desire to crucify Christ knowing he is the Messiah?

Edited by Calm
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PS...

There is a big difference between the Spirit withdrawing and being unable to feel it (someone blind can't see light, but it is still there and they may learn to experience light in different ways, such as heat on the skin or music expressing a sunrise).

I would be very surprised to read where GAs had said it withdrew unless it was from a time period where people thought mental illness was a result of sin.  Maybe you can ask her for the quotes or at least apostles she believes taught that.  It is very unfortunate if this was taught.  It is unfortunate if it was taught, but understood that way (it is understandable that many interpret teaching about mental illness incorrectly when they are suffering given the very condition is dysfunctional thinking).

I am not judging her nor do I think it essential she have the right interpretation for the sake of Truth; the only significant reason to make this effort is to help remove any current burden those ideas might be having on her.

Edited by Calm
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31 minutes ago, Calm said:

I was on anti-depressant medication for several years that prevented me from feeling the Spirit,

Honestly that doesn't make sense to me. Why would a medication be stronger than a benevolent god? 

So if god had something to tell you a medication prevented him from doing it? 

 

Edited by MormonVideoGame
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