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The Eucharist


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Partaking in the Eucharist is an important part of the Christian experience and it's significance should be not be lost to any believer.

I am curious as to other's thoughts on pneumatic presence Eucharist. I'm also interested in thoughts concerning consubstantiation and transubstantiation purposes in the Eucharist.

Thanks.

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My understanding is that Catholics take the pneumatic presence literally and protestants typically interpret Christ's presence symbolically. In LDS liturgy the Eucharist is known as "the Sacrament" and taken in "remembrance" of Christ's blood and flesh, both sacrificed on man's behalf.

I don't think much about transubstantiation. An LDS believer definitely does not believe it but I hold the transubstantiation card and play it when people ask if Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers. That believing as much does not make Satan deified anymore than transubstantiation makes Catholics cannibals. :)

Edited by Darren10
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In the Catholic tradition, the Eucharist is the principle means by which we partake of the divine nature and - through our cooperation with the divine will through prayer and fasting - are divinized. The Latin West tends to think a bit more about exactly how the infinite divine nature is united with the bread and wine (transubstantiation), while the Greek East is more prone to simply accepting the mystery at face value, without attempting to explain it.  Either way, what's believed about the real presence of Christ the divine Logos in the bread and wine, and the transformative effect on the Christian of receiving it in faith and love, is the same.  

Edited by Spammer
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Unlike our Catholic brothers and sisters, we believe (what we call) the Sacrament (what Catholicism call the Eucharist) is symbolic and not literal.

We do believe its very important and partake weekly -- we believe it renews our Baptismal Covenants.

Edited by mnn727
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I'm enjoying the diversity of perspectives thus far. 

Spammer, has Patriarch Bartholomew I taught anything specific concerning the Eucharist? Or would Bishop Kalistos Ware be a good source for information from an Eastern perspective?

For my LDS friends, does your Sacrament hold any deeper meaning other than a remembrance of covenants?

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Just now, Valentinus said:

I'm enjoying the diversity of perspectives thus far. 

Spammer, has Patriarch Bartholomew I taught anything specific concerning the Eucharist? Or would Bishop Kalistos Ware be a good source for information from an Eastern perspective?

For my LDS friends, does your Sacrament hold any deeper meaning other than a remembrance of covenants?

I would say that our sacrament a similar meaning to Spammer's description of the Eucharist from the Catholic point of view.  

The ordinance exists to transform the person partaking into a new person in Christ, becoming holy.  It is not just about remembrance of our covenants, it's a renewal of vows we have previously made.

It's like publicly saying, with this bread and water I take upon myself the name of Christ this day, and I promise to follow Him.

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39 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I would say that our sacrament a similar meaning to Spammer's description of the Eucharist from the Catholic point of view.  

The ordinance exists to transform the person partaking into a new person in Christ, becoming holy.  It is not just about remembrance of our covenants, it's a renewal of vows we have previously made.

It's like publicly saying, with this bread and water I take upon myself the name of Christ this day, and I promise to follow Him.

So there is a sanctification element that is placed on the person partaking?

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41 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

So there is a sanctification element that is placed on the person partaking?

Absolutey.  

These are the prayers that are said--the blessings pronounced over the sacrament table where the bread and water sit--before the congregation partakes of the sacrament-

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he hath given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

And-

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

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3 hours ago, Valentinus said:

I'm enjoying the diversity of perspectives thus far. 

Spammer, has Patriarch Bartholomew I taught anything specific concerning the Eucharist? Or would Bishop Kalistos Ware be a good source for information from an Eastern perspective?

For my LDS friends, does your Sacrament hold any deeper meaning other than a remembrance of covenants?

Val, I thought you were LDS at one time?  

Although I personally have some doctrinal disagreements with the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist, what I admire is the solemn reverence for the Eucharist and Eucharistic adoration.  I think we can learn from them and in doing so enhance our own experience with the Sacrament.  

I have always focused on the love, sacrifice, and resurrection of the Savior when I contemplate the Sacrament.  Although I understand that through the Sacrament I renew certain covenants and ordinances, I don't think I have ever consciously thought of the Sacrament in this way.  

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1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Val, I thought you were LDS at one time?  

Although I personally have some doctrinal disagreements with the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist, what I admire is the solemn reverence for the Eucharist and Eucharistic adoration.  I think we can learn from them and in doing so enhance our own experience with the Sacrament.  

I have always focused on the love, sacrifice, and resurrection of the Savior when I contemplate the Sacrament.  Although I understand that through the Sacrament I renew certain covenants and ordinances, I don't think I have ever consciously thought of the Sacrament in this way.  

I was LDS. However, I'm trying to understand religious teaching as outsider looking in. I'm trying to be objective and disregard emotional ties, sentimentality and nostalgia. I've spent the better part of the last couple of years distancing myself from religious community because my former faith is no longer part of my identity but a closed book.

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9 hours ago, Valentinus said:

I was LDS. However, I'm trying to understand religious teaching as outsider looking in. I'm trying to be objective and disregard emotional ties, sentimentality and nostalgia. I've spent the better part of the last couple of years distancing myself from religious community because my former faith is no longer part of my identity but a closed book.

I think at one point I got it into my head that you had converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, but I may have been mistaken.  I was aware that you had separated yourself from the LDS Church and felt good about that choice.  Out of curiosity, have you separated yourself from all religious communities?

It is a challenge to revert to a tabula rasa state, but I see merit in the objective to objectively approach God, religion, spirituality from a fundamental position. What is the present objective of your search or study?

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I would also suggest that the Sacrament in the LDS faith is incomplete without temple ordinances. BlueBell correctly pointed out that taking the Sacrament within the scope of LDS beliefs is a sanctification of the individual in Jesus Christ. That we *promise* to keep His commandments. It is by preparing oneself to attend the LDS temple that one actually *does* keep His commandments. The Sacrament is a renew of the promise of keeping those covenants and by continually getting spiritually ready for the temple, those covenants are constantly kept.

Edited to add: As per LDs belief, it is by preparing for the LDS temple and keeping those covenants which the sanctification of the Sacrament truly kicks in. The Sacrament and temple ordinances go hand in hand in the LDS faith.

 

Edited by Darren10
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2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I think at one point I got it into my head that you had converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, but I may have been mistaken.  I was aware that you had separated yourself from the LDS Church and felt good about that choice.  Out of curiosity, have you separated yourself from all religious communities?

It is a challenge to revert to a tabula rasa state, but I see merit in the objective to objectively approach God, religion, spirituality from a fundamental position. What is the present objective of your search or study?

I'm fascinated by Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. At one time I thought I could find a spiritual home in either. Yes, I have separated myself from all religious communities. I don't know if I'll ever go back to faith. 

My objective is merely to observe the complex human experience of walking in faith. Faith has little to no meaning to me but it means something to others and I want to understand why without being drawn in. I hope that makes sense.

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13 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

My objective is merely to observe the complex human experience of walking in faith. Faith has little to no meaning to me but it means something to others and I want to understand why without being drawn in. I hope that makes sense.

Do you mean that spiritual faith has little to no meaning to you, or faith in general?

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Do you mean that spiritual faith has little to no meaning to you, or faith in general?

Both. When I reflect on my past as a person of faith, I find myself confused by the person I once was. My attempts to rationalize or justify my past fail. I have no excuse sufficient enough to justify my reasoning for believing the way I did.

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1 minute ago, Valentinus said:

Both. When I reflect on my past as a person of faith, I find myself confused by the person I once was. My attempts to rationalize or justify my past fail. I have no excuse sufficient enough to justify my reasoning for believing the way I did.

That seems to be only from the angle of spiritual faith though.

For example, it is faith that causes someone to diet to lose weight.  Faith that muscles will get stronger is what causes someone to lift weights.  If they didn't believe that dieting and exercise would work, they wouldn't do it for the first time.  Faith is what causes students to enroll in college.  If they didn't have faith that graduation was possible, they would not embark on that path.   Faith that birth is possible for her is what get's a woman to endure pregnancy.  

Faith that our actions have a high likelihood of bringing about the consequence we seek is what gets us to do pretty much everything that we do.  We all are, in some significant ways, people of faith.  We just are not all people of spiritual faith.

 

 

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2 hours ago, bluebell said:

That seems to be only from the angle of spiritual faith though.

For example, it is faith that causes someone to diet to lose weight.  Faith that muscles will get stronger is what causes someone to lift weights.  If they didn't believe that dieting and exercise would work, they wouldn't do it for the first time.  Faith is what causes students to enroll in college.  If they didn't have faith that graduation was possible, they would not embark on that path.   Faith that birth is possible for her is what get's a woman to endure pregnancy.  

Faith that our actions have a high likelihood of bringing about the consequence we seek is what gets us to do pretty much everything that we do.  We all are, in some significant ways, people of faith.  We just are not all people of spiritual faith.

 

 

That's an odd example. Muscular development and weight loss have nothing to do with faith but everything to do with will and discipline.

I guess this answers your question. Faith, for me, does not exist.

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I understand that partaking of the Sacrament weekly results in the maintenance of our remission of sins (from week to week).  Thinking closely upon that, I would have to ask myself--is that remission actually done by the actual (blessed-by-the Priesthood and through the grace of Christ) substance?  That actually ingesting the (grace-energized) substance effects the remission?  Or is it entirely a metaphor to show that God has redeemed you forever and always (sins remitted) and we simply require a reminder each week to be cognizant of it?  Both ideas would be dependent on one's state of preparation i.e. repentance.  While I haven't come to a conclusion on it, my tendency at this point would be to understand an answer that would lie somewhere in between on the spectrum between those two concepts of the Sacrament.

I find it very telling that, in the LDS Sacrament, there is an altar; the priests perform the sacrifice; and they also perform the resurrection of Christ each week, which is represented by the blood and body of Christ rising up off the altar (from the tomb, as shown by the shrouds (white cloths)).  But where is it that this resurrected Christ goes?  (Into us.)  So who is, actually, the resurrected Christ? (Us, if we will, by our covenant, when we DID take upon the name of CHRIST.)  That's what I see every week when I observe and participate in the Sacrament, and it is somewhat mind-blowing to me.

Edited by Maidservant
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37 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

That's an odd example. Muscular development and weight loss have nothing to do with faith but everything to do with will and discipline.

I guess this answers your question. Faith, for me, does not exist.

Yes, but that's the point of faith. It's based on true principles, but those principles have no power in our lives unless and until we have the faith necessary to act on them.  

If someone has no faith that dieting will help them lose weight, they will never choose to diet.  Faith is the catalyst.  

 

 

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On 4/26/2017 at 4:34 PM, Valentinus said:

I'm enjoying the diversity of perspectives thus far. 

Spammer, has Patriarch Bartholomew I taught anything specific concerning the Eucharist? Or would Bishop Kalistos Ware be a good source for information from an Eastern perspective?

For my LDS friends, does your Sacrament hold any deeper meaning other than a remembrance of covenants?

The Roman Catholic Eucharist is a "Thank-offering" in the Jewish temple sense, the priest making the offering at the altar (as at the Jewish temple) of the Lamb of God, the Paschal Lamb.

The LDS Sacrament of the Lord's Supper (merely one of many LDS sacraments) is likewise celebrated by priests at an altar, and distributed by other members of the priesthood (in the Jewish temple sense), but only as emblematic of the body and blood of the Lamb of God, the Paschal Lamb -- as regular renewal of a covenant of remembrance and obedience, that the Holy Spirit will attend the recipient.

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