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USU78

Thou art my son: this day have I begotten thee

14 posts in this topic

Yup. If you haven't read it Levenson's Creation and the Persistence of Evil is great on that topic. He's Jewish and writing about pre-exilic Judaism. So there's no discussion of baptism. However he gets at a lot of discussion of creation and water that's quite important. Creation is order out of disorder where the water represents disorder. Further creation isn't just a one time act (as in creation ex nihilo) but is an ongoing processes. Just like we renew our baptismal covenants with the sacrament. Grace isn't a one time thing but an ongoing act of creation as we are sanctified.

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In other words, the earth had a birth just as it had a baptism, and will have a baptism by fire and a resurrection.

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5 hours ago, USU78 said:

It just occurred to me that baptism is a ritual reenactment of creation. G-d fashions cosmos out of chaos, the primordial waters being a representation of that chaos. He pulls the promised land up out of the chaos seas just as the priest pulls the new-made Son of G-d up out of the waters in the font.

And birth

And resurrection.

And that the man and the woman are strictly figurative.  But I suppose we can't go there.

Note that the elements are "caused" and their relationships are "called" into existence as "night and day".  Plants and animals are "placed" but mankind is "formed" by a special creation after God asks "Is man found on the earth?"  Why would God ask that?  Because he didn't know?

No, because it is a ritual reenactment and that question is a dramatic device to show that Man was formed by God himself in his image as a special act.

Note that in the Genesis version it is the earth itself that brings forth plants and animals.  Interesting differences.

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Yup. If you haven't read it Levenson's Creation and the Persistence of Evil is great on that topic. He's Jewish and writing about pre-exilic Judaism. So there's no discussion of baptism. However he gets at a lot of discussion of creation and water that's quite important. Creation is order out of disorder where the water represents disorder. Further creation isn't just a one time act (as in creation ex nihilo) but is an ongoing processes. Just like we renew our baptismal covenants with the sacrament. Grace isn't a one time thing but an ongoing act of creation as we are sanctified.

My own thinking arises out of my reading the philosophers of the Baroque period. Fashioning cosmos out of chaos figured big in them there days, with the horrors of the pan European 30 Years War on everybody's minds.

Then there's the obvious parallel between the risen Christ raising the prostrate Nephites in Bountiful and the baptism that was the first item on His 3rd Nephi ticklist

Edited by USU78
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13 hours ago, USU78 said:

It just occurred to me that baptism is a ritual reenactment of creation. G-d fashions cosmos out of chaos, the primordial waters being a representation of that chaos. He pulls the promised land up out of the chaos seas just as the priest pulls the new-made Son of G-d up out of the waters in the font.

 

58 minutes ago, USU78 said:

My own thinking arises out of my reading the philosophers of the Baroque period. Fashioning cosmos out of chaos figured big in them there days, with the horrors of the pan European 30 Years War on everybody's minds.

Then there's the obvious parallel between the risen Christ raising the prostrate Nephites in Bountiful and the baptism that was the first item on His 3rd Nephi ticklist

You don't need to rely on philosophy to understand baptism. Revelation explains it. The sea represents the world/chaos. Baptism represents us getting dunked into the world and figuratively rising back out of it in Christ. It is representative of us overcoming the death of the world in His resurrection out of it. 

Where i might disagree with you somewhat is that I don't read "thou art my Son this day I have begotten thee" as pertaining to a priest pulling a new made Son out of the waters of baptism. You will notice that our scriptures say when Jesus was baptized the Father said "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased." He is not really speaking to Yeshua, but to the observers. I believe there has been an attempt to change this in the Bezae Codex, but it only changed Luke, and missed the other references in the scriptures - revealing its non-inspired forgery. I believe Hebrews addresses this topic in showing that Yeshua was begotten by the oath of God.

So in a general sense I agree with you, that Christ was begotten out of a/the world, I don't believe it was on this earth, and the scriptures do not reflect that. Rather, they reflect that He was sent as the only Begotten of the Father. All scriptures on the subject indicate He was already begotten when He was born into the world. This is hearkening back to the Arian debate in early Christianity, which I believe got hijacked by the Council of Nicea by a minority of Church bishops.

So in a sense, yes, when we are baptized we become at least eligible to be sons and daughter of God (in my view Elohim, see Psalms 82), but that doesn't mean we become the "only begotten." It is symbolic of our potential, but I believe most importantly symbolic of our resurrection out of the world in Christ our Savior. As far as we know God only has one Begotten/unique Son at at time.

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1 hour ago, USU78 said:

My own thinking arises out of my reading the philosophers of the Baroque period. Fashioning cosmos out of chaos figured big in them there days, with the horrors of the pan European 30 Years War on everybody's minds.

Then there's the obvious parallel between the risen Christ raising the prostrate Nephites in Bountiful and the baptism that was the first item on His 3rd Nephi ticklist

I will add that the idea of God creating the world out of chaos hearkens back to the very beginning of the written language ie the gods of Sumeria and Babylonia typically had a head God who defeated or created out of chaos.

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1 hour ago, USU78 said:

My own thinking arises out of my reading the philosophers of the Baroque period. Fashioning cosmos out of chaos figured big in them there days, with the horrors of the pan European 30 Years War on everybody's minds.

Yes, the philosophy of that era at the end of the Renaissance and transition to modernism involved a lot of 'magical platonism' tied to the various hermetic texts and things like the pseudo-Dionysus. Not to mention the political issues of chaos. Because it was an era where people were breaking with scholasticism and rediscovering old ideas these older threads in the west became manifest again.

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19 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I will add that the idea of God creating the world out of chaos hearkens back to the very beginning of the written language ie the gods of Sumeria and Babylonia typically had a head God who defeated or created out of chaos.

The struggle with Tiamat figures in my thinking

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24 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

 

You don't need to rely on philosophy to understand baptism. Revelation explains it. The sea represents the world/chaos. Baptism represents us getting dunked into the world and figuratively rising back out of it in Christ. It is representative of us overcoming the death of the world in His resurrection out of it. 

Where i might disagree with you somewhat is that I don't read "thou art my Son this day I have begotten thee" as pertaining to a priest pulling a new made Son out of the waters of baptism. You will notice that our scriptures say when Jesus was baptized the Father said "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased." He is not really speaking to Yeshua, but to the observers. I believe there has been an attempt to change this in the Bezae Codex, but it only changed Luke, and missed the other references in the scriptures - revealing its non-inspired forgery. I believe Hebrews addresses this topic in showing that Yeshua was begotten by the oath of God.

So in a general sense I agree with you, that Christ was begotten out of a/the world, I don't believe it was on this earth, and the scriptures do not reflect that. Rather, they reflect that He was sent as the only Begotten of the Father. All scriptures on the subject indicate He was already begotten when He was born into the world. This is hearkening back to the Arian debate in early Christianity, which I believe got hijacked by the Council of Nicea by a minority of Church bishops.

So in a sense, yes, when we are baptized we become at least eligible to be sons and daughter of God (in my view Elohim, see Psalms 82), but that doesn't mean we become the "only begotten." It is symbolic of our potential, but I believe most importantly symbolic of our resurrection out of the world in Christ our Savior. As far as we know God only has one Begotten/unique Son at at time.

Just because we ritually become His sons and daughters in the font and in the temple doesn't mean we're necessarily such upon going through the ritual. Exactly. I thought that would be obvious.

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37 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

 

You don't need to rely on philosophy to understand baptism. Revelation explains it. The sea represents the world/chaos. Baptism represents us getting dunked into the world and figuratively rising back out of it in Christ. It is representative of us overcoming the death of the world in His resurrection out of it. 

Where i might disagree with you somewhat is that I don't read "thou art my Son this day I have begotten thee" as pertaining to a priest pulling a new made Son out of the waters of baptism. You will notice that our scriptures say when Jesus was baptized the Father said "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased." He is not really speaking to Yeshua, but to the observers. I believe there has been an attempt to change this in the Bezae Codex, but it only changed Luke, and missed the other references in the scriptures - revealing its non-inspired forgery. I believe Hebrews addresses this topic in showing that Yeshua was begotten by the oath of God.

So in a general sense I agree with you, that Christ was begotten out of a/the world, I don't believe it was on this earth, and the scriptures do not reflect that. Rather, they reflect that He was sent as the only Begotten of the Father. All scriptures on the subject indicate He was already begotten when He was born into the world. This is hearkening back to the Arian debate in early Christianity, which I believe got hijacked by the Council of Nicea by a minority of Church bishops.

So in a sense, yes, when we are baptized we become at least eligible to be sons and daughter of God (in my view Elohim, see Psalms 82), but that doesn't mean we become the "only begotten." It is symbolic of our potential, but I believe most importantly symbolic of our resurrection out of the world in Christ our Savior. As far as we know God only has one Begotten/unique Son at at time.

Revelation is inspired philosophy :)

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1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Revelation is inspired philosophy :)

Ha, smarty pants. It is prophecy, law, and yes, a specific philosophy of progression. It, however, is not renaissance nor Hellenistic philosophy. It is a philosophy propounded by God, which I aver can be found as early as Genesis. :)

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1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Ha, smarty pants. It is prophecy, law, and yes, a specific philosophy of progression. It, however, is not renaissance nor Hellenistic philosophy. It is a philosophy propounded by God, which I aver can be found as early as Genesis. :)

Nah. ;)  God reveals ideas to us wordlessly.  Impresions.  Waves of intelligence.  He speaks all languages at once in Adamic, pre-confounding. ;)

And then we have to put that into this stupid mode of communication we call "language"

Of course I am prejudiced because 1- I am not good at this talking stuff and 2- God has never spoken to me in English.  Maybe he has spoken to you in English- I cannot know that.  But suppose he has!!

If anyone hereabouts has heard God's word spoken in time, in full English sentences starting at the beginning, word by word, you are BLESSED and incredibly worthy and would not be wasting your time here.

But suppose I am wrong and you ARE here.

I STILL have to BELIEVE YOU that you indeed did hear God speak to you in English and guess what?  That puts us back at square one.

I can only KNOW that from you "Wordlessly.  Impresions.  Waves of intelligence.  He speaks all languages at once in Adamic, pre-confounding. ;)"

So my comprehension of what you tell me is limited.

And dang, good old Genesis is STILL written in language, subject to translation, and what YOU SEE there wordlessly in waves of intelligence is not what others see there.

So neener neener dude. ;)

Ya know I love ya,.!

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On April 20, 2017 at 9:59 PM, USU78 said:

It just occurred to me that baptism is a ritual reenactment of creation. G-d fashions cosmos out of chaos, the primordial waters being a representation of that chaos. He pulls the promised land up out of the chaos seas just as the priest pulls the new-made Son of G-d up out of the waters in the font.

Very deep, not the waters, but the thoughts. 

Edited by Bill "Papa" Lee
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