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People leave the church because of a "trust gap"


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59 minutes ago, juliann said:

Nemesis owns it now. FM owned it before and I was admin for a good while. So let's say I have quite an investment in it. Or we could just say the obvious, a good number of us have had enough of nitpickers. 

What I am wondering with all the defenses of Dehlin we just went through....if they have him, why do they force us to provide their therapy and healing, which always consists of them saying rotten stuff about the church or its members and us being expected to listen with a smile?  Isn't Dehlin trained to do that? What is lacking there that they come here?

I don't see anyone here asking for therapy and healing.

Im curious who the "they" vs "us" is in your paragraph above. 

I was under the impression that this was a place for discussion of differing thoughts and dialogue of all things Mormon.  I guess you could start giving the boot to anyone who disagrees with you.  Perhaps that would create the board that you want. 

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13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Where did I attack the fire chief for being concerned about Mormons. Where!?! If someone were reading through and just saw this, you defamed me in a way. 

I defamed you by describing exactly what you did, huh.  Out of a beautiful story about a fire chief trying to rescue sacred items from a burning Mormon church, this is all you thought was important. Trivializing his act by "wondering" if DI can sell of the paintings was a nice touch. 

  • I think it was careless to risk lives. 
  • The fire  chief when he sent in the other firefighters to get the pictures of the Saviour off the walls.
  • I wonder what the church does with all the pictures of Christ they get at the D.I. What if they can't sell them all? I have two neighbors that are managers at the D.I. Maybe I'll ask.
  • I just don't think now the firefighter thought it as severe as the talk in General Conference portrayed it. And if not, then it was careless over paintings.

 

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I don't conversate on that other board, but have read it, and there are some TBM's that discuss over there. So I wouldn't judge it too harshly or those that discuss on it, especially Jeanne.  

It's not about you. Judge it how you want. Just a suggestion though, if you all want to get along here it might not be such a good idea to trash talk this board and its posters while lecturing us on how we are to respond to the negativity that overwhelms this place.

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But I will certainly apologise to this fire chief about how I quickly judged. If I had known it wasn't as serious and those men's lives weren't in grave danger I wouldn't have said what I did. 

You mean if you had bothered to read the article before going after the fire chief who wanted to salvage something for those Mormons. And BTW, the value of an item isn't always about how much it costs or how well it sells at DI. 

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17 minutes ago, rockpond said:

 

I was under the impression that this was a place for discussion of differing thoughts and dialogue of all things Mormon.  I guess you could start giving the boot to anyone who disagrees with you.  Perhaps that would create the board that you want. 

Strawman alert. 

 

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42 minutes ago, juliann said:

I defamed you by describing exactly what you did, huh.  Out of a beautiful story about a fire chief trying to rescue sacred items from a burning Mormon church, this is all you thought was important. Trivializing his act by "wondering" if DI can sell of the paintings was a nice touch. 

  • I think it was careless to risk lives. 
  • The fire  chief when he sent in the other firefighters to get the pictures of the Saviour off the walls.
  • I wonder what the church does with all the pictures of Christ they get at the D.I. What if they can't sell them all? I have two neighbors that are managers at the D.I. Maybe I'll ask.
  • I just don't think now the firefighter thought it as severe as the talk in General Conference portrayed it. And if not, then it was careless over paintings.

 

It's not about you. Judge it how you want. Just a suggestion though, if you all want to get along here it might not be such a good idea to trash talk this board and its posters while lecturing us on how we are to respond to the negativity that overwhelms this place.

You mean if you had bothered to read the article before going after the fire chief who wanted to salvage something for those Mormons. And BTW, the value of an item isn't always about how much it costs or how well it sells at DI. 

When did I trash the board? Twice you've said I've done something when I haven't.

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4 hours ago, Calm said:

None of the newspapers or tv crews made a big deal of the effort, if they even mentioned efforts to save valuables that I have seen reading and watching 5 or so reports.  Sounds to me likely Elder Bragg was told the story by a member who was involved and it is unlikely this information was shared with the news people.

It is hardly unusual to hear on the news efforts were made to save valuables.  I doubt it occurred to the commander that it would be good PR.

I think it is unfortunate to be so eager to see this man's behaviour as selfcentered, etc.

I don't think you can discount the p.r. angle so easily. Fire fighters should show the community it serves that it does its job. The cameras were there talking pictures and helping out a church save pictures of Jesus is a nice story that supports this goal. I'm sure the fire chief is a nice, good man that puts his best foot forward when he can, for the good of the fire department. I don't think getting a little p.r. is a bad thing when serving. Doesn't the church have its volunteers wear the same colored t-shirts when it helps out during disasters?

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23 minutes ago, William Jones said:

I don't think you can discount the p.r. angle so easily. Fire fighters should show the community it serves that it does its job. The cameras were there talking pictures and helping out a church save pictures of Jesus is a nice story that supports this goal. I'm sure the fire chief is a nice, good man that puts his best foot forward when he can, for the good of the fire department. I don't think getting a little p.r. is a bad thing when serving. Doesn't the church have its volunteers wear the same colored t-shirts when it helps out during disasters?

I don't think we will ever know if there was some PR thoughts in his head.  The man and his people risk their lives for me and mine. I'm going to assume he had the best intentions.  I don't get why this comes into question. It frustrates me that every time something good happens that someone has to question motivations. What purpose does that serve? 

 

Edited by Rain
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Just now, Rain said:

I don't think we will ever know if there was some PR thoughts in his head.  The man and his people risk their lives for me and mine. I'm going to assume he had the biggest intentions.  I don't get why this comes into question. It frustrates me that every time something good happens that someone has to question motivations. What purpose does that serve? 

 

Well said.

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2 minutes ago, Rain said:

I don't think we will ever know if there was some PR thoughts in his head.  The man and his people risk their lives for me and mine. I'm going to assume he had the biggest intentions.  I don't get why this comes into question. It frustrates me that every time something good happens that someone has to question motivations. What purpose does that serve? 

 

Well isn't this a discussion? It looks to me that cameras were there taking pictures of fire fighters rescuing pictures of Jesus a la rescuing a cat stuck in a tree. So what if it was a little p.r.? Is that negative? Fire fighters do a good job and the community should know it. It builds needed trust for when they are rescuing something really important like a scared child, etc.

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37 minutes ago, William Jones said:

I don't think you can discount the p.r. angle so easily. Fire fighters should show the community it serves that it does its job. The cameras were there talking pictures and helping out a church save pictures of Jesus is a nice story that supports this goal. I'm sure the fire chief is a nice, good man that puts his best foot forward when he can, for the good of the fire department. I don't think getting a little p.r. is a bad thing when serving. Doesn't the church have its volunteers wear the same colored t-shirts when it helps out during disasters?

Hello William... 

You're correct that the Church receives a p.r. benefit from wearing the same color shirts... but another more important reason is for safety and  security by being easily identifiable, i.e., we belong in the neighborhoods with the purpose of helping; we are well organized teams with team leaders, etc, when going into neighborhoods and knocking on doors and organizing clean-up, sometimes by filling out work orders.  Church volunteers, usually bused in from different wards and stakes, can identify our other volunteers by the shirts.  It's an efficient way of identifying and utilizing our volunteers, who sometimes number in the hundreds.  

GG

Edited by Garden Girl
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4 minutes ago, William Jones said:

Well isn't this a discussion? It looks to me that cameras were there taking pictures of fire fighters rescuing pictures of Jesus a la rescuing a cat stuck in a tree. So what if it was a little p.r.? Is that negative? Fire fighters do a good job and the community should know it. It builds needed trust for when they are rescuing something really important like a scared child, etc.

I know about the importance of good PR. I have given speeches promoting an organization I have worked with. I have been interviewed by the paper and did so for the purpose of PR. If I had stayed longer in the area I might have been on TV for the PR. The PR is great as it helped our organization thrive. But my main job was not PR. It was creating things to be sold, organizing volunteers as well as other things. 

It really would have bothered me if someone said "Rain creates these things for PR." No, I created those things to help children. 

So when that man saves things that he feels are important to me and my church it would not occur to me that he is doing it for PR. No, in my mind, he is doing it out of respect for me and mine. PR would be when/if he interviews with the reporter.

PR is usually a positive thing. Saying his motivation to do the other parts of his job is PR - not so positive.

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5 minutes ago, Rain said:

I know about the importance of good PR. I have given speeches promoting an organization I have worked with. I have been interviewed by the paper and did so for the purpose of PR. If I had stayed longer in the area I might have been on TV for the PR. The PR is great as it helped our organization thrive. But my main job was not PR. It was creating things to be sold, organizing volunteers as well as other things. 

It really would have bothered me if someone said "Rain creates these things for PR." No, I created those things to help children. 

So when that man saves things that he feels are important to me and my church it would not occur to me that he is doing it for PR. No, in my mind, he is doing it out of respect for me and mine. PR would be when/if he interviews with the reporter.

PR is usually a positive thing. Saying his motivation to do the other parts of his job is PR - not so positive.

I don't believe it was for PR, just wanted to get that on the table. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, juliann said:

... And BTW, the value of an item isn't always about how much it costs or how well it sells at DI. 

True.  Sometimes, we tend to forget that something which isn't worth a whole lot in terms of extrinsic value is (basically, in this case, the cost of the materials used to produce, or to reproduce, it) is worth a whole lot more in terms of intrinsic value (sentiment, emotional attachment, spiritual significance, and so on).  

A couple of years ago, I gave personally-captioned copies of a painting of the Savior (the Good Shepherd) holding a lamb in His arms to several members of my family: The caption reads, "[Name], thou art my little lamb." :)  These aren't worth a whole lot in terms of extrinsic value: ink, card stock, and so forth; not counting frames (which themselves weren't very expensive), perhaps a dollar a piece (and that's being generous).  But I certainly hope that the intrinsic value to their recipients is much greater.  I hope that each time recipients look at that captioned painting, they are reminded that Ken and Jesus love them. ;) And I reiterate, in Elder Bragg's retelling, even a cheap copy of the painting of the Savior had intrinsic value, even to a bunch of perhaps hard-bitten, cynical, profane firefighters who otherwise might not have had much use for religion, for religious symbols, or for religious art.  In my opinion, that's the light of Christ at work in their hearts. For more of my thoughts about cynicism among first responders, see the following address, last accessed April 23, 2017:

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2013/09/04/end-of-watch-sergeant-derek-johnson/

Edited by Kenngo1969
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5 hours ago, Rain said:

I know about the importance of good PR. I have given speeches promoting an organization I have worked with. I have been interviewed by the paper and did so for the purpose of PR. If I had stayed longer in the area I might have been on TV for the PR. The PR is great as it helped our organization thrive. But my main job was not PR. It was creating things to be sold, organizing volunteers as well as other things. 

It really would have bothered me if someone said "Rain creates these things for PR." No, I created those things to help children. 

So when that man saves things that he feels are important to me and my church it would not occur to me that he is doing it for PR. No, in my mind, he is doing it out of respect for me and mine. PR would be when/if he interviews with the reporter.

PR is usually a positive thing. Saying his motivation to do the other parts of his job is PR - not so positive.

Obviously I am not saying that the only motivation to do his job is PR. I'm sure he has the best motives. My guess is that the good fire chief does his job well and does it to save lives. He also was at least partly motivated by gaining some good PR by "saving" some common pictures that appear in ward houses across the globe. Why is that so hard to see or admit? Trust gap in action?

You are right to say PR is usually a positive thing and it was in this case, too. Fire fighters do a wonderful service and are ready to risk their lives in order to save human beings. This is the message our good fire fighter was probably trying to convey by showing the local community that they will go in and "save" pictures that are iconic to the community or at least to some of the community. It probably was gravy that the pictures were of the Savior himself.

So, I do not think it is a story of bad intent. It's a story of letting the fire fighters' collective light so shine a little bit for the community to see in the small little way that it happened. It was a good way to reinforce that fire fighters save.

The church does the same thing when it gets their member saviors to wear the same colored shirts while giving disaster relief. The members do a wonderful job of their own volition and wear the church uniform so their light can shine and society can see the good that they are doing, in a positive way.

So, getting a little PR by having the media take photos, video and telling stories about saving iconic religious pictures is not a bad thing. It is good PR and a good thing. However, PR was most assuredly part of the motivation and that's ok.

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31 minutes ago, William Jones said:

Obviously I am not saying that the only motivation to do his job is PR. I'm sure he has the best motives. My guess is that the good fire chief does his job well and does it to save lives. He also was at least partly motivated by gaining some good PR by "saving" some common pictures that appear in ward houses across the globe. Why is that so hard to see or admit? Trust gap in action?

You are right to say PR is usually a positive thing and it was in this case, too. Fire fighters do a wonderful service and are ready to risk their lives in order to save human beings. This is the message our good fire fighter was probably trying to convey by showing the local community that they will go in and "save" pictures that are iconic to the community or at least to some of the community. It probably was gravy that the pictures were of the Savior himself.

So, I do not think it is a story of bad intent. It's a story of letting the fire fighters' collective light so shine a little bit for the community to see in the small little way that it happened. It was a good way to reinforce that fire fighters save.

The church does the same thing when it gets their member saviors to wear the same colored shirts while giving disaster relief. The members do a wonderful job of their own volition and wear the church uniform so their light can shine and society can see the good that they are doing, in a positive way.

So, getting a little PR by having the media take photos, video and telling stories about saving iconic religious pictures is not a bad thing. It is good PR and a good thing. However, PR was most assuredly part of the motivation and that's ok.

Why is it so hard to see or admit that what he did might have nothing to do with PR? A world that seems obsessed with PR?

If you can give me evidence that he saved the pictures in part because of PR then I will understand the assumption. Remember a large part of my job with that organization was PR. I kind of knew the difference in reasons for doing the PR parts of my job and the reasons for doing the other parts of my job. So far, you have only given me evidence that part of his job is PR, not that saving the pictures was. 

The colored shirts from the church. Yes, I believe part of the reason for wearing the colored shirts is PR. But if the stake president/leader of a group who come to clean up an area, gives a teddy bear to a crying child who just lost all his toys I'm not going to assume he gave the bear, in part, because of PR even if he is wearing the shirt. 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, William Jones said:

 

So, getting a little PR by having the media take photos, video and telling stories about saving iconic religious pictures is not a bad thing. It is good PR and a good thing. However, PR was most assuredly part of the motivation and that's ok.

Ok, if this happened I MAY agree that there was a little PR. I thought I read above that the only reason we know about it is a church connection. I'll have to look at articles later to see if I had an incorrect understanding.

The reason I say "may" is because usually my experience with things like this is that people don't "have the media taking photos" etc. The media just does it. That is not to say that organizations don't ask for the PR in some way, but that some situations, like this fire, don't typically involve asking for it.

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42 minutes ago, Rain said:

Ok, if this happened I MAY agree that there was a little PR. I thought I read above that the only reason we know about it is a church connection. I'll have to look at articles later to see if I had an incorrect understanding.

The reason I say "may" is because usually my experience with things like this is that people don't "have the media taking photos" etc. The media just does it. That is not to say that organizations don't ask for the PR in some way, but that some situations, like this fire, don't typically involve asking for it.

I'm primarily going from the talk and the pictures that go along with the talk on lds.org:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/04/brighter-and-brighter-until-the-perfect-day?lang=eng

"I felt that joy when I heard about the efforts of a brave group of firefighters who fought to save a burning stake center in Southern California in 2015. As the fire raged, a battalion commander called an LDS friend to ask where the sacred relics and sacrament cups were kept so they could be saved. His friend assured him that there were no sacred relics and that the sacrament cups were actually very, very replaceable. But the commander felt he should do more, so he sent firefighters back into the burning building to pull every painting of Christ off of the walls that they might be preserved. They even placed one in the firetruck in the hope that the firefighters might be watched over. I was truly touched by the commander’s kindness, goodness, and sensitivity to the Light during a dangerous and difficult time."

The battalion commander calls his lds friend asking what needs to be saved and the friend says basically not to bother and that there isn't anything that is irreplaceable.  The commander wanted or "felt" to do "more" when the member relayed that it wasn't necessary. Moreover, the commander specifically put a picture of Jesus in one of the trucks which strikes me as something that was influenced, in part, by the media being there and a PR opportunity.  Also, the fire fighter with the 21 on his helmet seems to be posing.  Don't let tragedy go to waste as Rahm Imanuel says, right?

Regardless, these are brave men fighting a dangerous fire and I am sure that their motives were and are pure for the most part.  However, we humans are complex creatures and can have many motivations for our actions.  Some of which can be PR, however slight the PR motive may or may not be.

Edited by William Jones
couldn't insert the pictures
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34 minutes ago, William Jones said:

I'm primarily going from the talk and the pictures that go along with the talk on lds.org:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/04/brighter-and-brighter-until-the-perfect-day?lang=eng

"I felt that joy when I heard about the efforts of a brave group of firefighters who fought to save a burning stake center in Southern California in 2015. As the fire raged, a battalion commander called an LDS friend to ask where the sacred relics and sacrament cups were kept so they could be saved. His friend assured him that there were no sacred relics and that the sacrament cups were actually very, very replaceable. But the commander felt he should do more, so he sent firefighters back into the burning building to pull every painting of Christ off of the walls that they might be preserved. They even placed one in the firetruck in the hope that the firefighters might be watched over. I was truly touched by the commander’s kindness, goodness, and sensitivity to the Light during a dangerous and difficult time."

The battalion commander calls his lds friend asking what needs to be saved and the friend says basically not to bother and that there isn't anything that is irreplaceable.  The commander wanted or "felt" to do "more" when the member relayed that it wasn't necessary. Moreover, the commander specifically put a picture of Jesus in one of the trucks which strikes me as something that was influenced, in part, by the media being there and a PR opportunity.  Also, the fire fighter with the 21 on his helmet seems to be posing.  Don't let tragedy go to waste as Rahm Imanuel says, right?

Regardless, these are brave men fighting a dangerous fire and I am sure that their motives were and are pure for the most part.  However, we humans are complex creatures and can have many motivations for our actions.  Some of which can be PR, however slight the PR motive may or may not be.

Right.  Ignore what was specifically stated about the firefighters' motivation for putting a painting of Jesus they had salvaged from the building in a firetruck ("in hopes that they would be watched over") in favor of your own supposition ("The commander specifically put a picture of Jesus in one of the trucks which strikes me as something that was influenced, in part, by the media being there and a PR opportunity"). :rolleyes: 

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19 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Right.  Ignore what was specifically stated about the firefighters' motivation for putting a painting of Jesus they had salvaged from the building in a firetruck ("in hopes that they would be watched over") in favor of your own supposition ("The commander specifically put a picture of Jesus in one of the trucks which strikes me as something that was influenced, in part, by the media being there and a PR opportunity"). :rolleyes: 

You don't think people fib every now and then? Don't people fib in defense of what they believe are higher purposes?

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3 hours ago, Rain said:

Ok, if this happened I MAY agree that there was a little PR. I thought I read above that the only reason we know about it is a church connection. I'll have to look at articles later to see if I had an incorrect understanding.

The reason I say "may" is because usually my experience with things like this is that people don't "have the media taking photos" etc. The media just does it. That is not to say that organizations don't ask for the PR in some way, but that some situations, like this fire, don't typically involve asking for it.

I recall no one telling stories about saving pictures in any of the reports or videos I saw.  There was one short two second short of two firemen causally caring two pictures in one report that I recall.  Given the likelihood of the news showing a touchy freely moment (one had extended dialogue from a missionary about the tragedy of the loss, for example), I see the lack as good evidence none was told.

Unless William Jones can show there was an attempt to promote the picture story, there is no reason to assume that motivation was for PR.

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1 hour ago, William Jones said:

You don't think people fib every now and then? Don't people fib in defense of what they believe are higher purposes?

CFR any evidence of promotion or withdraw your claims.

Have you looked at any of the reports yourself and if so, how many?

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, William Jones said:

I'm primarily going from the talk and the pictures that go along with the talk on lds.org:

The pictures were not shown on any of the reports I saw.  They could easily have been taken by a member as there were many milling around watching the flames.  How many would be speculation as there were likely neighborhood people as well, but they had some talk in the interviews I saw.  No one referenced the picture story that I recall.

It would appear you are making a decision about how they interacted with the media without even looking at the interaction with the media.

More laziness in research.  Not impressed.

CFR for any actual evidence, not speculation based on something that has nothing to do with the media as far as there is evidence.

Edited by Calm
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21 minutes ago, Calm said:

The pictures were not shown on any of the reports I saw.  They could easily have been taken by a member as there were many milling around watching the flames.  How many would be speculation as there were likely neighborhood people as well, but they had some talk in the interviews I saw.  No one referenced the picture story that I recall.

It would appear you are making a decision about how they interacted with the media without even looking at the interaction with the media.

More laziness in research.  Not impressed.

CFR for any actual evidence, not speculation based on something that has nothing to do with the media as far as there is evidence.

I think this is the church that burned:

http://www.foxla.com/news/2085834-story

This is all it mentions about the art:

"A few paintings were rescued from the fire, members saying its a sign God is with them."

I searched a bit for more stories on it (Glassell Park Mormon church building fire) and didn't see any of those pictures used as PR, etc.  I didn't do an extensive search though.

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4 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I think this is the church that burned:

http://www.foxla.com/news/2085834-story

This is all it mentions about the art:

"A few paintings were rescued from the fire, members saying its a sign God is with them."

I searched a bit for more stories on it (Glassell Park Mormon church building fire) and didn't see any of those pictures used as PR, etc.  I didn't do an extensive search though.

I wish I'd read this before I commented on the thread yesterday. Thanks JulieM!

"Once the flames were largely quelled, crews conducted salvage operations with the help of church officials to help recover documents or valuables from
inside the structure."

 

Edited by Tacenda
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14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wish I'd read this before I commented on the thread yesterday. Thanks JulieM!

"Once the flames were largely quelled, crews conducted salvage operations with the help of church officials to help recover documents or valuables from
inside the structure."

 

One picture shows the Bishop carrying art out but I think it's the morning after the fire (it was a Spanish speaking ward or branch I think).  I'll try to find it again (may have just been a member too, but I think it stated a Bishop).  There were firemen with him so it's confusing.

Here's one link but there was another one where he was lining pictures up outside the church (stating the Bishop):

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/on-wednesday-morning-members-visit-church-of-jesus-christ-news-photo/479944738?esource=SEO_GIS_CDN_Redirect#on-wednesday-morning-members-visit-church-of-jesus-christ-of-saints-picture-id479944738

Edited by JulieM
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