People leave the church because of a "trust gap"

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I must admit, I learned early on to not trust church leaders when they falsely made a promise in the name of God that if I marry a woman, then over time, I would no longer be gay.  Kind of hard to trust church leaders when you make very important life choices as a foundation of your life only to find that the foundation was a complete lie.  I don't know if I am the very elect or not, but I have to admit, I was totally deceived.

I'm sorry this happened to you.  I know others in your situation and it has not been easy on them or the kids.

 

[Tsuzuki]

I wonder what the statistics for millennials leaving Mormonism are versus millennials leaving sectarian religion as a whole.

[Bernard Gui]

I always come back to Elder Maxwell's 1978 prophecy...

Quote

But make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters; in the months and years ahead, events will require of each member that he or she decide whether or not he or she will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions (see 1 Kings 18:21).

Some of my adult children's friends are leaving the Church for the reasons listed in the OP, but I believe this is part of a general secular trend in our culture to jettison religious belief, 

which trend Elder Maxwell also foresaw in 1978...

Quote

Your discipleship may see the time come when religious convictions are heavily discounted. M. J. Sobran also observed, “A religious conviction is now a second-class conviction, expected to step deferentially to the back of the secular bus, and not to get uppity about it” (Human Life Review, Summer 1978, p. 58). This new irreligious imperialism seeks to disallow certain of people’s opinions simply because those opinions grow out of religious convictions. Resistance to abortion will soon be seen as primitive. Concern over the institution of the family will be viewed as untrendy and unenlightened.

In its mildest form, irreligion will merely be condescending toward those who hold to traditional Judeo-Christian values. In its more harsh forms, as is always the case with those whose dogmatism is blinding, the secular church will do what it can to reduce the influence of those who still worry over standards such as those in the Ten Commandments. It is always such an easy step from dogmatism to unfair play—especially so when the dogmatists believe themselves to be dealing with primitive people who do not know what is best for them. It is the secular bureaucrat’s burden, you see.

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, Tsuzuki said:

I wonder what the statistics for millennials leaving Mormonism are versus millennials leaving sectarian religion as a whole.

These short articles have some answers...

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/05/13/a-closer-look-at-americas-rapidly-growing-religious-nones/

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/08/24/why-americas-nones-left-religion-behind/

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, SamIam said:

Poppycock...People leave the church because they do not have a properly foundated faith based testimony of Jesus Christ.  We talk about in the last days the very elect will be deceived. However, that is a distant scriptural concept that we may not be good at associating the nebulous ideology against the backdrop of the actual events that fulfill the edict. Sometimes, in our lack of grasp, we read they "will be deceived" but we don't think it through to realize that it is no act of simple deception that we should be concerned about.  It will be compelling reasons. The arguments will be persuasive and will tug at the strings of reason and thought. Some will offend our sensibilities and perhaps create such cognitive dissonance that we struggle in the foundational applications of basic principles and it becomes, in simplified terms, a challenge of faith versus proof.  And when the proof is simply, at worst, the iteration that men are not perfect or the efforts of other men that warp the narrative to create compelling deceptions, why is a hundred ways of validating these known telestial sphere realities given such power to sway the hearts of men.  When at best it may be that men have trouble understanding the thoughts that are not our thoughts and the ways of deity that are not our ways we once again encounter the issue that faith is lacking among many and they entertain Satan's dialogue of deception to their destruction.

Of course when you approach those who have left the church for the reasons mentioned in the article you get some common and even standard responses. They always seem so sensible and targeted to the specific and seemingly reasonable issues-how tithing is used, trusting the brethren, acts of overt deception to hide our history, marriage of old men and little girls, and the unchristian attitudes of rejecting a class of people for lifestyle choices seem to be the more common ones I encounter.  However, again in simplified terms, it all comes back to they did not believe Christ when he cautioned that every man who walked in his own way and would reject his servants would be cut off from amongst the people. In the processes that the adversary uses are many contributors and the nature of the tone of the article you reference is only one more text seeking to create the spirit of distrust to further the cause of undermining the weak of faith.

That sounds like a story you want to believe. Oftentimes people leave because of their faith in Christ. They realise they must choose between Joseph and Jesus and they choose Jesus.

Me, I choose the kingdom Christ established in his mortality: fulfillment of the Law of Moses, baptism, True Religion, the Beatitudes, the First and Second Greatest Commandments, the doctrine of two gathered in His name,  and the Comforter. His spiritual kingdom.

[Tsuzuki]

12 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Oftentimes people leave because of their faith in Christ. They realise they must choose between Joseph and Jesus and they choose Jesus.

Mormonism has just as much Jesus as any other Christian religion. I never felt like I had to choose between Joseph and Jesus. On the contrary, I no longer consider myself Mormon because it has too much Jesus in it for my tastes, and there is no way to separate it out.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Tsuzuki

[Meadowchik]

16 minutes ago, Tsuzuki said:

Mormonism has just as much Jesus as any other Christian religion. I never felt like I had to choose between Joseph and Jesus. On the contrary, I no longer consider myself Mormon because it has too much Jesus in it for my tastes, and there is no way to separate it out.

For me, I see Joseph and his personal indiscretions as inseparable from foundational Mormonism which have indeed carried through to today, to be an integral force in Mormon policy, culture, and doctrine. 

It appears we see Joseph differently.

[Tsuzuki]

15 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

For me, I see Joseph and his personal indiscretions as inseparable from foundational Mormonism which have indeed carried through to today, to be an integral force in Mormon policy, culture, and doctrine. 

It appears we see Joseph differently.

That doesn't make Mormonism any less Christian.

[SamIam]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

That sounds like a story you want to believe. Oftentimes people leave because of their faith in Christ. They realise they must choose between Joseph and Jesus and they choose Jesus.

Me, I choose the kingdom Christ established in his mortality: fulfillment of the Law of Moses, baptism, True Religion, the Beatitudes, the First and Second Greatest Commandments, the doctrine of two gathered in His name,  and the Comforter. His spiritual kingdom.

...and a story that you do not want to believe. It is no small wonder that to you it would seem as you have stated.  However, clearly that you can speaks in terms of such paradox as seemingly sustaining that it is possible that one has to choose between Joseph and Jesus Christ is telling of conditions of your own personal faith crisis. Off of the top of my head I can't remember if you were ever LDS or not however, frankly, it is only going through Joseph Smith that you will ever truly choose Jesus Christ. Failure to understand the patterns of what it is to bear the testimony of knowledge that is solely possessed by the dispensational head as the Lord opens a dispensation leaves you with the watered down "true religion" that you espouse.  What he restored, recovered the lost paths of the New Testament theology corrupted by time and the pride and arrogance of men that you find comfort in.  That's fine if it suits your needs in this temporal state and brings you peace.  However, it is tragic that the spiritual kingdom you hope to find cannot be had outside of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ and the ordinances and covenants of the same. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by SamIam

[readstoomuch]

I think secularism has crept into the church at all ages level.  Of the 6 or 7 adults in my ward who struggle or left there is secularism, but I talked to each one at the bishops direction and it comes down to history so often.  The manuals are woefully out of date and I sometimes just have to clarify what I see are only part s of the truth or inadequate facts.  We spend hours in these classes.  We can and need to do better.  The gospel is interesting when taught well.

[why me]

10 hours ago, bsjkki said:

The Salt Lake Tribune interviewed Jana Reiss about her research on why Mormon's leave the church. She explains it is because of a "trust gap." She explains people find controversial information about the church from outside sources, find out this information is true and then wonder why they never heard the information at church. According to her research this is the number one reason millennials leave the church. She puts it this way, 

"But the second most common reason overall (and tied for first among Millennials) was “I did not trust the Church leadership to tell the truth about controversial issues." The article http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/5196148-155/trust-gap-hounds-the-mormon-church

There has been a push to make the essays more visible but it has been a slow roll-out. From this article in the Deseret News, that seems to be by design. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865669945/Essays-on-Mormon-history-doctrine-find-new-visibility-in-official-app-Sunday-School.html" The soft launch was deliberate. The essays had a practical purpose, leaders said. They intended the essays to help people find official answers to questions they might have when researching a specific topic online. And they were also meant to be widely used over time."

I'm not sure why they thought it was a good idea for parents to find out about the essays from their kids. "Many Mormon parents, in fact, have been introduced to the Gospel Topics essays as their teens and young adults come home or call home to talk about how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using not just the more familiar Urim and Thummim instrument, but by also using a seer stone at times to translate the golden plates he was intrusted with."

 

 

 

All of this is probably true. However, it is not because the church hid the facts or lied about the facts. What did happen is that the church decided to stress other issues besides its history. Old timers kniew about much of what is now controversial. We knew about the polygamy, the head in the hat, the seer stone, the money digging, the bank crisis and other things. Why? because most homes had church libraries and they read books. And issues were discussed in class. When Arrington's book came out, people read it. Here is an interesting article from 1975 and it was in the ensign:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/07/history-is-then-and-now-a-conversation-with-leonard-j-arrington-church-historian?lang=eng

If the church would have stuck with the plan, all would have been well. But something changed and when the change happened, the internet came about and suddenly the critics became the spokespersons for lds history. But we knew much back in the day.

https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Experience-HISTORY-LATTER-DAY-SAINTS/dp/0252062361

https://www.amazon.com/Leonard-Arrington-Writing-Mormon-History/dp/160781479X

Edited April 20, 2017 by why me

[why me]

1 hour ago, readstoomuch said:

I think secularism has crept into the church at all ages level.  Of the 6 or 7 adults in my ward who struggle or left there is secularism, but I talked to each one at the bishops direction and it comes down to history so often.  The manuals are woefully out of date and I sometimes just have to clarify what I see are only part s of the truth or inadequate facts.  We spend hours in these classes.  We can and need to do better.  The gospel is interesting when taught well.

What should the manuals teach? Of couse, maybe there should now be a church history class. But what should be taught? And why as lds history defined the church when other churches more or less get a free pass when it comes to their history? Does the lutheran church teach lutheran history during their sunday school? Or any protestant faith? Or the catholic church? Whatever may be in their history, it is secondary to actually worshipping and becoming closer to god during worship service. So, why are the mormons singled out? All churches are vulnerable when it comes to history. But the concentration on the mormons seems to have a dubious purpose.

Edited April 20, 2017 by why me

[why me]

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3988110-155/new-biography-tells-all-about-a

"Brothers and sisters, I have seen the ... deepest part of the church, and I can tell you that it is inspired," Arrington would tell the Mormon faithful, "and there is nothing in there for us to be ashamed of."

So true, brother arrington but many lds seem not to be listening.

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, SamIam said:

...and a story that you do not want to believe. It is no small wonder that to you it would seem as you have stated.  However, clearly that you can speaks in terms of such paradox as seemingly sustaining that it is possible that one has to choose between Joseph and Jesus Christ is telling of conditions of your own personal faith crisis. Off of the top of my head I can't remember if you were ever LDS or not however, frankly, it is only going through Joseph Smith that you will ever truly choose Jesus Christ. Failure to understand the patterns of what it is to bear the testimony of knowledge that is solely possessed by the dispensational head as the Lord opens a dispensation leaves you with the watered down "true religion" that you espouse.  What he restored, recovered the lost paths of the New Testament theology corrupted by time and the pride and arrogance of men that you find comfort in.  That's fine if it suits your needs in this temporal state and brings you peace.  However, it is tragic that the spiritual kingdom you hope to find cannot be had outside of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ and the ordinances and covenants of the same. 

It is a story I wanted to believe and did believe for forty years of my life. My belief in the church and commitment to Christ led me out of the church.  Of course, I did prioritise some church doctrines over others: like "the glory of God is intelligence" was prioritised over polygamy, for example.  The church's current narrative is untenable.  You might come to see that eventually, but I am glad that you seem to sincerely seek the truth.

I believe that God will not punish anyone making decisions based on genuine faith and honest search for the truth. More and more, this represents the condition of people leaving the church.  I hope that more believing Mormons and post-Mormons can come to the mutual understanding, that the glory of God truly is intelligence, that those who sincerely seek Him will find Him.

May God bless you and yours.

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

3 hours ago, Tsuzuki said:

That doesn't make Mormonism any less Christian.

The untenable narrative of and about Joseph Smith eliminates Mormonism as an option for me. 

[readstoomuch]

1 hour ago, why me said:

What should the manuals teach? Of couse, maybe there should now be a church history class. But what should be taught? And why as lds history defined the church when other churches more or less get a free pass when it comes to their history? Does the lutheran church teach lutheran history during their sunday school? Or any protestant faith? Or the catholic church? Whatever may be in their history, it is secondary to actually worshipping and becoming closer to god during worship service. So, why are the mormons singled out? All churches are vulnerable when it comes to history. But the concentration on the mormons seems to have a dubious purpose.

I'll give you a few examples.  The last time I taught about Thomas B Marsh and the milk stripping, I did some extra research.  I found the manual too simplistic and I thought wrong in many ways.  This was an adult Sunday School class.  The full details were quite a story of redemption and forgiveness.  For example, the whole congregation raised their hand accepted him back to full fellowship, even though he had sworn out affidavits in Missouri that added to their suffering.  I don't have time to go into it now, but it is quite a story when taken as a whole.  A few months ago I was teaching the eleven year olds about the translation of the Book of Mormon.  It was a time to add some other illustrations about how it may have been translated, including his head being put in a hat to block out the light.  No big deal to eleven year when they are told, but the important thing is that they were told.  My wife taught a lesson about Joseph F Smith in RS.  During the lesson it brought up trials. One of his big ones was that he was divorced.  My wife brought it up and told the story.  Joseph F really tried, but his wife was not going to live the Mormon way.  There were six young sisters who had been through some horrible divorces right after their missions or education.  They were all crying.  One told my wife that she felt like a complete loser because she got divorced so young.  We didn't change the underlying message that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon or that Thomas Marsh left the Church at least partly due to some actions of his wife.  My wife didn't say that Joseph F Smith was not a prophet because his first wife went to San Francisco for months at a time and had an affair.  Those are some examples that I see not so much about hiding our history, but not telling it as accurately or completely as we could.  We are richer for the effort of teaching it more accurately.  That is my opinion.  I have honestly talked to all of the seven people who had doubts and five of them left or quit coming to Church.  The sad part is that their spouses all continue to try and make their way within the Church.  A few of the marriages ended over the doubts and inactivity of their spouse.  We talked so much about history.  I like history and I try to tell it accurately, honestly and sympathetically.  In most of the cases the bishop asked me to speak to the people.  I usually have one of the members of the bishopric when I teach a lesson.  I have yet to have one of them come up and criticize me.  On the contrary, I often get asked for references so people can read more.  This is interesting and inspiring when taught well IMO.  

[california boy]

7 hours ago, SamIam said:

I can't speak to the comments of the leaders in your life.  Having served as a Bishop I can attest to the fact that I wasn't always prepared with the right answer. Perhaps I even encouraged some of these distrust issues because I wasn't the best Bishop or I didn't have the answer to a particularly poignant life choice such as you have made. I do believe that if you had held on or perhaps had the opportunity to hold on then "over time" is a pretty sure bet. 

I can't even tell you how angry I am with this comment.  It is the sams BS That i was told when I was 20.  After 30 years of "hanging on" I think it is pretty safe to say that I will always be gay.  You have no idea the fasting and prayer. The years of service and doing what ever church leaders asked of me.  At what point can you deliver on your promise if I just hold on?  10 more years?  20? 50?  

I really feel sorry for your son. You have no right to offer that kind of hope to someone who is gay.  Nor do you have a right to tell me 'if I just held on".  You do not nor can you speak for God. 

[Jeanne]

57 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

It is a story I wanted to believe and did believe for forty years of my life. My belief in the church and commitment to Christ led me out of the church.  Of course, I did prioritise some church doctrines over others: like "the glory of God is intelligence" was prioritised over polygamy, for example.  The church's current narrative is untenable.  You might come to see that eventually, but I am glad that you seem to sincerely seek the truth.

I believe that God will not punish anyone making decisions based on genuine faith and honest search for the truth. More and more, this represents the condition of people leaving the church.  I hope that more believing Mormons and post-Mormons can come to the mutual understanding, that the glory of God truly is intelligence, that those who sincerely seek Him will find Him.

May God bless you and yours.

 

This so speaks for me.  Thank you for putting it into a narrative that I can relate.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, bsjkki said:

The Salt Lake Tribune interviewed Jana Reiss about her research on why Mormon's leave the church. She explains it is because of a "trust gap."

You can even pick your trust gap. Consider all the people who admit that they don't trust their perceptions, feelings, etc., their parents; God; scripture; old stories; religion and other unscientific or unpopular approaches to life; etc. -- and then those that don't admit it.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, bsjkki said:

There has been a push to make the essays more visible but it has been a slow roll-out. From this article in the Deseret News, that seems to be by design. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865669945/Essays-on-Mormon-history-doctrine-find-new-visibility-in-official-app-Sunday-School.html" The soft launch was deliberate. The essays had a practical purpose, leaders said. They intended the essays to help people find official answers to questions they might have when researching a specific topic online. And they were also meant to be widely used over time."

I'm not sure why they thought it was a good idea for parents to find out about the essays from their kids.

When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

[HappyJackWagon]

11 hours ago, SamIam said:

Poppycock...

Dude. Watch the language. I called someone a "taffey-puller" and got banned from a thread. So... just sayin

 

I think the trust gap is spot on. Trust in men (even if they are prophets) has nothing to do with trusting God or Jesus. When doctrines change...when history changes...when past teachings are disavowed...when the narrative of truth claims change, having all been based on the testimony of past or current prophets, it is easy to see how one loses confidence in the testimonies of those proclaiming the dogma. I cannot trust or have confidence that the teachings and claims of current leaders won't also be overturned by future leaders. I no longer trust that prophets have any better understanding of God's unchanging doctrine and will than the average bear.

For me, the trust gap applies very well. I have issues with church history, doctrine, policy, and social positions but all of those are tied into a lost trust or confidence that the leaders truly know and articulate God's will in an authoritatively true way

[Meadowchik]

20 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

This so speaks for me.  Thank you for putting it into a narrative that I can relate.

My oldest daughter and I were talking about this this morning.  We both agreed that it is wonderful that we can each believe what we want and believe differently from each other and anyone else and still be a family and live peacefully in society. I think that all of us learn and grow more under those types of conditions!

[RevTestament]

12 hours ago, bsjkki said:

The Salt Lake Tribune interviewed Jana Reiss about her research on why Mormon's leave the church. She explains it is because of a "trust gap." She explains people find controversial information about the church from outside sources, find out this information is true and then wonder why they never heard the information at church. According to her research this is the number one reason millennials leave the church. She puts it this way, 

"But the second most common reason overall (and tied for first among Millennials) was “I did not trust the Church leadership to tell the truth about controversial issues." The article http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/5196148-155/trust-gap-hounds-the-mormon-church

There has been a push to make the essays more visible but it has been a slow roll-out. From this article in the Deseret News, that seems to be by design. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865669945/Essays-on-Mormon-history-doctrine-find-new-visibility-in-official-app-Sunday-School.html" The soft launch was deliberate. The essays had a practical purpose, leaders said. They intended the essays to help people find official answers to questions they might have when researching a specific topic online. And they were also meant to be widely used over time."

I'm not sure why they thought it was a good idea for parents to find out about the essays from their kids. "Many Mormon parents, in fact, have been introduced to the Gospel Topics essays as their teens and young adults come home or call home to talk about how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using not just the more familiar Urim and Thummim instrument, but by also using a seer stone at times to translate the golden plates he was intrusted with."

I think I may call this the Santa Claus effect.

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, why me said:

All of this is probably true. However, it is not because the church hid the facts or lied about the facts. What did happen is that the church decided to stress other issues besides its history. Old timers kniew about much of what is now controversial. We knew about the polygamy, the head in the hat, the seer stone, the money digging, the bank crisis and other things. Why? because most homes had church libraries and they read books. And issues were discussed in class. When Arrington's book came out, people read it. Here is an interesting article from 1975 and it was in the ensign:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/07/history-is-then-and-now-a-conversation-with-leonard-j-arrington-church-historian?lang=eng

If the church would have stuck with the plan, all would have been well. But something changed and when the change happened, the internet came about and suddenly the critics became the spokespersons for lds history. But we knew much back in the day.

Please explain what you mean by "something changed" and your inference that the Church did not stick with the plan. Are you referring to the change in the narrative, and apparently dropping the white-washed presentation? When do you see this change occurring? 

[stemelbow]

Quote

Riess has been conducting a large-scale survey, called The Next Mormons, and has been "struck by the fact that among former Mormons, particular historical problems or doctrines don't emerge as the primary reasons for leaving the church," she writes. " ... Book of Mormon historicity ranks ninth, and the other specific historical issues barely register at all."

Poppycock!...

Just kidding.  I find it interesting that it's far less about the historical issues and far more about the trust in leaders, often due to the difficulities of these issues.  I've stayed this long and the issues have been there for me.  My view of the leaders has certainly changed over the years.  I don't know that I ever venerated them quite like most in my ward do, but I still thought there was some reliability in terms of revelation there.  Now, i'm not so sure.  And I'm making that ok.  But I certainly get when people don't.  When the realization comes that there is no more revelation in the church then many other orgs and churches in the world, I get why someone would leave (as it's a distinct possibility for me even today).  You need not be in the Church for God to inspire and support you.