Which/where manual teaches salvation like this...

[Christian Mormon]

On the board is a stairway and on each step is Commandments and ordinances that brings us to closer to heaven at the end of the lesson the teacher has outlined The Plan of Salvation pretty good on the board. Then the teacher asks if anybody noticed  something missing. He then draws a foundation at the bottom of the steps to show that none of this was possible if it wasn't for the grace of Christ and building upon the foundation.

[rpn]

How is the Plan of Salvation about getting to heaven.  For me it is wholly about becoming like Him.  I don't see it as a linear stair step thing.  So I don't think the diagram you suggest should appear in a manual.  

One can argue that Mormons don't talk about grace enough.   But grace isn't what mortals can do.   What mortals can DO is what mortals control.    I understand why teaching about the things that mortals have control over has value in helping people.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

How is the Plan of Salvation about getting to heaven.  For me it is wholly about becoming like Him.  I don't see it as a linear stair step thing.  So I don't think the diagram you suggest should appear in a manual.  

One can argue that Mormons don't talk about grace enough.   But grace isn't what mortals can do.   What mortals can DO is what mortals control.    I understand why teaching about the things that mortals have control over has value in helping people.

How could you leave out that step? It's bad enough that it's taught in the BoM that Grace is only acheived after all you can do. Why wouldn't you include Grace as to remind people? Or is it as some say, a works Grace? Time to change that mistake.

[cinepro]

11 hours ago, Christian Mormon said:

On the board is a stairway and on each step is Commandments and ordinances that brings us to closer to heaven at the end of the lesson the teacher has outlined The Plan of Salvation pretty good on the board. Then the teacher asks if anybody noticed  something missing. He then draws a foundation at the bottom of the steps to show that none of this was possible if it wasn't for the grace of Christ and building upon the foundation.

Is this something you've actually seen, or are you saying you think this should be in a manual?

FWIW, I like this illustration from a book by Elder Hales because it shows the Temple covenants, and also includes "Care for Poor" (and the last signpost says "No Poor"):

Edited April 8, 2017 by cinepro

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

How could you leave out that step? It's bad enough that it's taught in the BoM that Grace is only acheived after all you can do. Why wouldn't you include Grace as to remind people? Or is it as some say, a works Grace? Time to change that mistake.

It is not a mistake to say that faith is required to accept the free gift of grace.  It is a matter of free choice, and God will not force us to accept his free offer.  That is the meaning of the Scripture you refer to:

II Nephi 25:23

. . . be reconciled unto God;

for we know that it is by grace we are saved,

after all we can do.

 

II Nephi 10:24

. . . reconcile yourselves to the will of God,

and not to the will of the devil and the flesh;

and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God,

that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

 

Alma 24:11

. . . it has been all that we could do . . .

to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed,

and to get God to take them away from our hearts,

for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God

that he would take away our stain . . . .

 

Ephesians 6:13 (ISV)

For this reason, take up the whole armor of God so that you may be able to take a stand whenever evil comes.

And when you have done everything you could, you will be able to stand firm.

 

As Brad Wilcox has put it:

"Christ is not waiting at the finish line once we have done 'all we can do' (2 Ne. 25:23). He is with us every step of the way."^[1]

 

---

^[1] Wilcox, “His Grace is Sufficient,” BYU Devotional Address, July 12, 2011, published in BYU Today, devotional address at BYU (Winter 2012), online at http://magazine.byu.edu/article/his-grace-is- sufficient/, citing Bruce Hafen, The Broken Heart (SLC: Deseret Book, 1989), 155.

 

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

How could you leave out that step? It's bad enough that it's taught in the BoM that Grace is only acheived after all you can do. Why wouldn't you include Grace as to remind people? Or is it as some say, a works Grace? Time to change that mistake.

Are you suggesting that the Book of Mormon is not enthusiastic about teaching grace? I think it almost falls over itself telling us how vital Christ is in a way that shames even the New Testament.

[Garden Girl]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

How could you leave out that step? It's bad enough that it's taught in the BoM that Grace is only acheived after all you can do. Why wouldn't you include Grace as to remind people? Or is it as some say, a works Grace? Time to change that mistake.

Hello Tacenda...

Sigh... Please see Robert F. Smith's post above and read the scriptures carefully... particularly 2 Nephi 10:24... "Wherefore my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved."

2 Nephi 25:23 says the same thing... "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."   So, we can labor diligently... we can try to persuade our children and brethren to believe in Christ... we can do whatever... but we know that no matter what we do, after all we can do, it is by grace that we are saved.

GG

[filovirus]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 8:18 AM, Tacenda said:

How could you leave out that step? It's bad enough that it's taught in the BoM that Grace is only acheived after all you can do. Why wouldn't you include Grace as to remind people? Or is it as some say, a works Grace? Time to change that mistake.

Read that whole chapter. Don't just take that one line out of context. A thorough read-through of that chapter will show that we are in fact saved by grace, in spite of all we can do. Nephi even expounded just a few verses earlier "behold I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved."

Notice the next few verses after verse 23. They speak of the law. Which law do they speak of? The law of Moses. They (Nephi and his people, not us, the current LDS) must keep the law. This is "all you can do" for them. Keep the law. But then Nephi goes on to talk of the deadness of the law. That there is no salvation in the law. But that they keep it anyway until the time it is done away with.

The law is done away for us. It is by grace we are saved.

Edited April 10, 2017 by filovirus
Clarification

[pogi]

On 4/7/2017 at 11:26 PM, Christian Mormon said:

On the board is a stairway and on each step is Commandments and ordinances that brings us to closer to heaven at the end of the lesson the teacher has outlined The Plan of Salvation pretty good on the board. Then the teacher asks if anybody noticed  something missing. He then draws a foundation at the bottom of the steps to show that none of this was possible if it wasn't for the grace of Christ and building upon the foundation.

We used to do something like this on my mission when teaching about the plan of salvation.  We built a staircase with the steps labeled "faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost and endure to the end."  It is in just about every manual there ever was. We didn't use the foundation, but I like that addition.  

Edited April 13, 2017 by pogi

[pogi]

On 4/8/2017 at 9:18 AM, Tacenda said:

It's bad enough that it's taught in the BoM that Grace is only acheived after all you can do. 

Would you prefer it reads that grace saves us regardless of what we do?  

Do our actions not demand justice, and is our effort not worthy of grace? 

[Bernard Gui]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Would you prefer it reads that grace saves us regardless of what we do?  

The Calvinists prefer that.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Would you prefer it reads that grace saves us regardless of what we do?  

Do our actions not demand justice, and is our effort not worthy of grace? 

 

Grace Is Not Earned

Grace excludes merit.

We must constantly remind ourselves that humanity is not deserving of salvation. No one can “earn” pardon by works of human merit. If such were the case, we could boast regarding our redemption; however, that is impossible (Eph. 2:8-9).

 

Even if one were able to perform everything God commands, he still must regard himself as an “unprofitable servant” (Lk. 17:10). Jesus taught that our sins have put us head-over-heels in debt, and no person has the innate ability to liquidate that obligation (cf. Mt. 18:24-27).

When this concept is truly grasped, service to Almighty God will flow with a freshness and zeal that invigorates the soul. Doubtless a failure to fathom the true significance of grace is the reason many church members are spiritually lethargic.

*******************************************************************************************************************************************************

1. Grace is God's unmerited favor. That is, grace is God doing good for us that we do not deserve. In the Bible, grace and mercy are like two heads of the same coin. Mercy is God withholding judgment or evil that I deserve; grace is God giving me blessing or good that I do not deserve. Because of God's mercy, I do not receive the judgment of God against my sins; because of God's grace, I receive eternal life and a promise of heaven though I do not deserve them. Both mercy and grace come to me through the Lord Jesus Christ.

*******************************************************************************************************************************************************

Grace has its own law, a higher, liberating law: "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:2; cf. James 1:25). Note that this new law emancipates us from sin as well as death. Paul was explicit about this: "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" (Romans 6:1-2). Grace reigns through righteousness (Romans 5:21).

That is the good news of the gospel! God has acted to set us free from sin — not just the consequences, but it's very power and presence. One day we will never know the experience of temptation, a stray thought, a misspoken word, a false motive. Guilt will be gone, and with it shame, and "so we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

In the meantime, we enjoy the liberation from sin's cruel power and defiling influence. God has enabled us, through grace, to "deny ungodliness and worldly desires" so that we can enjoy a sensible, righteous, and godly life in the present age (Titus 2:12). "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 

*******************************************************************************************************************************************************

“Grace” is the OPPOSITE of “works”

Ephesians 2:8 also tells us that “grace” and “faith” are the opposite of “works.”

If we are NOT saved by any type of “works” then that means that our salvation is ALL of God and NONE of us!  It means that GOD is TOTALLY responsible for our salvation – and we are NOT.

If we must “accept” Jesus Christ in order to be save, then we MUST “do something” to gain our salvation.  Then it is NOT “ALL of God” because WE must “do something.”

If we “make the right choice” and “choose” to worship God, then we CAN boast about it – because WE did it – WE made the right choice (and many others have NOT – and they will - deservedly? - burn in hell! – or so we are taught).

That is the OPPOSITE of “Grace.”

What does it mean to be under Grace and NOT under the Law?

“The phrase ‘under the law’ refers to the Law’s attitude toward you, not your attitude toward the law.  A sinner who is convicted of sin (crime) is ‘under the law,’ and the law will stand over him to force him to pay restitution to his victims.  A sinner who has been released from his sentence – either by paying the debt in full, or working it off, or having a near kinsman pay his debt, is NO LONGER ‘under the law.”  His debt is paid.  Grace in the Law of Jubilee, Stephen Jones, www,godskingdomministries.org

The law has no jurisdiction over those who are obeying the law.  It only has jurisdiction over those who are disobeying the law. 

That is why author Ayn Rand, in writing about the inherently progressive evil of ALL governments run by man, including the U.S. government, said:

“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.”

When we are obeying the law completely, we are no longer “under the law.”

When we are OBEYING the Law, the Law has no jurisdiction over us.

The Christian Church has so severely distorted the interpretation of this text that it teaches that Christians no longer have to obey the Law, they no longer have to obey the Ten Commandments, because - - - they are now “under grace.”

Does Grace really mean “Unmerited Favor”?

If grace means Unmerited Favor, as most pastors say, that means we don’t deserve to be saved.  That God brought us into this world of sin, something we had no choice in, and something we would never have wished on ourselves, to live a life full of pain and sorrow, and then, in the end, the vast majority would be eternally lost!

That would be a horrible, vicious God – a God who would rival the cruelty of the pagan gods.

Yet God has planned every moment of our life long before we were born and HE is responsible for everything we do and every decision we make.  So, if we don’t deserve to be saved, then God planned it that way.  And it’s HIS problem, not ours.

But God HAS planned for ALL of us to be SAVED.  He states it clearly over 100 times in the Bible.  See www.goodnewsaboutgod.com for the article “What Happens at the Judgment?” and see “100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind” at www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html

Therefore, the word “Grace” CANNOT mean “Unmerited Favor” because Jesus has had the Salvation of the WHOLE WORLD planned BEFORE He created the world!  See “Why did God create human beings into a universe (and world) already contaminated with sin?” at www.goodnewsaboutgod.com

 

Let’s take another look at our study text.

“For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is God’s gift (approach present), not of works lest any man should boast.”  Eph 2:8

God’s gift (literal translation=approach present) is the equivalent of the Hebrew word “corban,”  The Greek word is do’ron which literally means GIVE-GUSH, or to gushingly give.

This is the same word in the Greek that is used for the gifts that the Magi brought to Christ at His birth (Matthew 2:11), and the offering that Abel brought to God (Hebrews 11:4).

This text, Ephesians 2:8, shows that “grace” is the opposite of “works.”

Let’s look at possibly the prime example of God’s Grace as given to us in the Bible account of the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt.  This reveals exactly the character of God.

The Exodus of the Israelites from Israel to the Promised Land

When God brought the Israelites out of Egypt, through the wilderness and into the Promised Land, we are told that it was an example for us to study, contemplate and learn from. 

Egypt, in the Bible is symbolic for “sin.”  God bringing the Israelites (His followers) “out of Egypt” symbolizes God bringing His followers today “out of sin.”  The wanderings through the wilderness represent our “wanderings” through life, frequently becoming rebellious against God, lacking faith repeatedly, until finally, after we “reap what we have sown” as the consequences of our rebellion and wrong choices, eventually God takes us into the Promised Land – which represents heaven (a temporary place for the Millennium) and subsequently the New Earth, where everyone will spend Eternity.

What is it about this journey of the Israelites that God wants to teach us, in this era?

A.   God brought the Israelites out of Egypt by HIS OWN power, NOT their power.  The ten plagues on Egypt were all of God’s doing. 

B.   The Israelites came out from Egypt with ONLY yard goods, gold and silver.  They had NO weapons.

C.   When they reached the Red Sea and were hemmed in by the Sea and surrounding mountains, with the Egyptians fast approaching, they began to whine and complain that they had been brought out there to die.  God made sure that they had NO weapons.  Moses said to the Israelites, “You keep still and watch GOD fight for you.”

D.   God made sure that the Israelites had NO boats.  God opened the Red Sea and allowed the Israelites to go through on dry land.  The Egyptians had no faith, and the water collapsed on them.

E.    The desert of Sinai is so barren NOTHING will grow there.  God made sure that the Israelites could NOT grow any of their own food.  God fed the Israelites with manna – bread from heaven – representing Jesus Christ the REAL “Bread from heaven.”

F.    God made sure that the Israelites were in a desert where they had NO way of getting water for themselves.  God gave the Israelites water to drink – from the Rock – which represented Jesus Christ, the Living Water.

G.   God made sure that the Israelites were in an unbearably hot desert, with NO trees for shade and NO air conditioning.  God kept them cool during the day by His cloud cover.

H.   The desert can get extremely cold at night.  The Israelites had NO system of heating.  God kept them warm at night by His cover of fire.

I.      God gave them civil laws to settle disputes.  God gave them laws for criminal behavior.

J.     When they followed God’s commands, none were sick.  When they finally entered into the Promised Land, “not one was sick among them.”

What we learn from the experience of the Israelites in the Exodus is that

 

GOD DID EVERYTHING!

It was “ALL of God, and NONE of them.” 

God brought the Israelites into the Promised Land by HIS mighty hand.  The Israelites had nothing to do with it.  God did it ALL!

THAT is “GRACE” - - - when GOD does it ALL!

God proclaimed the Israelites a stiff-necked people!  He brought the Israelites into the Promised Land IN SPITE of themselves, NOT because they made the right choices.

God put the Israelites in such circumstances that they eventually had NO CHOICE except to rely on God.  They had NO ONE ELSE to turn to.  They could NOT rely on themselves, because they were powerless to do ANYTHING to save themselves.

This is the perfect illustration of Grace – that God does it ALL. 

All of humanity will eventually enter the Promised Land (heaven and/or the New Earth) – and Jesus will be responsible for every one.  He does it ALL.  NONE of it is done by us.

God loves EVERY PERSON He has created SO MUCH that He is going to bring EVERY ONE of them into the “Promised Land.”

God predestines that we make decisions that will lead us down a path “of our own choosing” until we have hurt ourselves enough to realize that we cannot run our own life.  When we recognize our need - from experiencing so much pain - we will turn to Him, because we will finally realize there is nowhere else to turn.

“We have to realize that we cannot earn or win anything from God through our own efforts. The greatest spiritual blessing we receive is when we come to the knowledge that we are destitute.  Until we get there, our Lord is powerless.  He can do nothing for us as long as we think we are sufficient in and of ourselves.  We must enter into His kingdom through the door of destitution.  As long as we are ‘rich,’ particularly in the area of pride or independence, God can do nothing for us.”  My Utmost for His Highest, November 28, Oswald Chambers.

It is God who puts into our heart the desire for Him to run our life 

            “No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him.”  (John 6:44)

That desire that God places in us will lead us to study the Bible with diligence, to pray fervently, and eventually to understand the true character of Christ.

            “By beholding, we become changed.”  (2 Corinthians 3:18)

By studying about the Lord, contemplating His life, and praying to Him, we will get to know Him – up close and personal - and eventually He will put His life – His character – His “Holy Spirit” (or more correctly translated, God’s breath of holiness) - in us.  We will then manifest His character and disposition – His holiness.

This is “eonian life” – the character of Jesus Christ manifested in and through us.

This sequence of events eventually WILL happen to every person who has ever lived on earth.  Then everyone will have the character of Christ.  They will have the “law” written inwardly on their heart, rather than on an “outward” table of stone. 

For this is the Covenant I will make with the House of Israel (the true believers in Jesus Christ) after those days, Saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts, and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people.”  Hebrews 8:9,10

When the law is “put in our mind and written in our heart” we will have the heart and mind of Christ and we will automatically do right.  It will be our nature to do right.  When Jesus is making every decision in our life, we WILL be perfect.

We will all be SAVED by “Grace” – by Christ alone – NOT of our own doing in ANY way – lest ANY man or woman can boast – that he or she has “made the right choice.”

God will do it ALL!

And BECAUSE God does it ALL, He GUARANTEES the Salvation of the WHOLE Human Race!

 

 

Pogi,

The above are some excerpts from various talks from non LDS Christians. I'm LDS and didn't grow up with these teachings but when I read them I like what they say. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just like them. Because they all pretty much say that we are given Grace at the beginning and we didn't earn it. We don't even deserve it, and that is what is so wonderous and awesome that we are given the gift! Not any of it is because we did it. 

Sorry if I c/p'd too much. 

Tacenda

 

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And BECAUSE God does it ALL, He GUARANTEES the Salvation of the WHOLE Human Race! 

You don't see anything wrong with this?

No justice?

I agree that grace is not earned.  I agree that we do not deserve it.  Grace is no more earned or deserved than are the alms given to a petitioning beggar.  It is grace for nothing, yet work is required to hold up the sign. 

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

You don't see anything wrong with this?

No justice?

I agree that grace is not earned.  I agree that we do not deserve it.  Grace is no more earned or deserved than are the alms given to a petitioning beggar.  It is grace for nothing, yet work is required to hold up the sign. 

Yeah, that one is a thinker.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

You don't see anything wrong with this?

No justice?

I agree that grace is not earned.  I agree that we do not deserve it.  Grace is no more earned or deserved than are the alms given to a petitioning beggar.  It is grace for nothing, yet work is required to hold up the sign. 

Grace is God keeping the promises he made to us in our pre-mortal life when we shouted for joy at the opportunity he was providing us. He knew what was in store for us with regard to sin, justice, and mercy. He provided a way back through the Atonement of his Son. Jesus was slain from before the foundation of the world. These actions prove he thinks we deserve it. After all, it's his work and glory.

 

Edited April 13, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[clarkgoble]

On 4/8/2017 at 9:18 AM, Tacenda said:

How could you leave out that step? It's bad enough that it's taught in the BoM that Grace is only acheived after all you can do. Why wouldn't you include Grace as to remind people? Or is it as some say, a works Grace? Time to change that mistake.

Umm, what? That's not what 2 Nephi 25:23 says. At a minimum it requires ignoring verse 25. Grace is, according to the Book of Mormon, an enabling condition. Not to mention other places like 2 Ne 10:24-25. "...after ye are reconciled unto God...it is only in and thought the grace of God ye are saved." The whole point is that if we deny ungodliness and turn to God loving him his grace is sufficient for us and makes us perfect in Christ. (Mor 10:32)

 

[clarkgoble]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

We will all be SAVED by “Grace” – by Christ alone – NOT of our own doing in ANY way – lest ANY man or woman can boast – that he or she has “made the right choice.”

God will do it ALL!

And BECAUSE God does it ALL, He GUARANTEES the Salvation of the WHOLE Human Race!

You don't believe anyone has the ability to turn from Grace? You don't believe Christ has made us free? (Gal 5:1) What's the point of Paul's entreaty to not become entangled with sin if we can't do it?

Grace is, as I understand it, the capability and power to choose freely. But we get to make the choice because of Christ.

Edited April 13, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

You don't believe anyone has the ability to turn from Grace? You don't believe Christ has made us free? (Gal 5:1) What's the point of Paul's entreaty to not become entangled with sin if we can't do it?

Grace is, as I understand it, the capability and power to choose freely. But we get to make the choice because of Christ.

I guess I like that Grace was given at the very first and not after all we can do. Maybe some will receive it and love the gift and want to do better because of it and others just dump the gift, I don't know.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Umm, what? That's not what 2 Nephi 25:23 says. At a minimum it requires ignoring verse 25. Grace is, according to the Book of Mormon, an enabling condition. Not to mention other places like 2 Ne 10:24-25. "...after ye are reconciled unto God...it is only in and thought the grace of God ye are saved." The whole point is that if we deny ungodliness and turn to God loving him his grace is sufficient for us and makes us perfect in Christ. (Mor 10:32)

 

Okay, looks fine then. I am ashamed at myself for not being better at reading the BoM. But what I've noticed all of my life is that in the church we don't talk about Grace much. Maybe we will more now. The first time I've ever heard much about it, was in a RS lesson. The teacher was from the south, and she spoke in words I'd never heard before. She mentioned putting all our troubles at Christ's feet. I was much younger and somehow this was a new idea to me. 

I am very naive when it comes to the gospel sometimes, I know, and I'm in my 50's! 

Edited April 13, 2017 by Tacenda

[pogi]

13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Grace is God keeping the promises he made to us in our pre-mortal life when we shouted for joy at the opportunity he was providing us. He knew what was in store for us with regard to sin, justice, and mercy. He provided a way back through the Atonement of his Son. Jesus was slain from before the foundation of the world. These actions prove he thinks we deserve it. After all, it's his work and glory.

Right, but I disagree that Christ's actions proves that he thinks we "deserve" grace.  His actions simply show that he loves perfectly.  The scriptures are clear that what we "deserve" according to the law, is eternal physical and spiritual death as we all have sin.  We do not deserve or earn his grace through any merit of our own. .  King Benjamin makes it clear that we cannot say "aught of ourselves" and will forever be indebted to Him.  Unless you know of a way to pay back the debt, there is no way that we can deserve grace.

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

But what I've noticed all of my life is that in the church we don't talk about Grace much. Maybe we will more now. The first time I've ever heard much about it, was in a RS lesson. The teacher was from the south, and she spoke in words I'd never heard before. She mentioned putting all our troubles at Christ's feet. I was much younger and somehow this was a new idea to me. 

The rhetoric of grace isn't something we use as much as our Evangelical friends. I think we've always talked about it constantly though just using different terms - largely I believe because of the prevalence of "cheap grace" especially in the southern Evangelical tradition.

However since the 80's the rhetoric of grace has been fairly common. I think that's largely due to the influence of Robert Millet who noted back in the 80's that we tended not to use the term grace and injected it back into our discourse. He has quite a few books on the topic that are extremely popular and typically best sellers at Deseret Books. Just doing a quick search there are a ton of books on grace at Deseret Books. One great book, published by BYU, is Relational Grace. It's a bit scholarly but a fantastic analysis of the notion in early Christian thought and greek rhetoric. I heartily recommend it. It's also a pretty constant theme at conference. Elder Uchtdorf's talk "The Gift of Grace" from a few years back gets quoted a lot. In our stake it was used as the basis of a priesthood/relief society lesson. The Mormon Channel has a whole channel just on talking about grace.

So while I don't doubt for a second that perhaps all this has passed your ward by, it's actually been a pretty strong focus on the church the past decade or two. In my own ward I was assigned the topic for a sacrament talk a couple of years ago.

Prior to popularizing talking of grace rhetorically back in the 90's Mormons usually used "spirit" in a somewhat analogous fashion. That is the spirit is the enabling condition that allows us to do things we couldn't on our own. It's also a transformative power that as we act on the spirit and live in the spirit we change our very nature. This is living and progressing grace to grace, which even Jesus had to do. Effectively most of D&C 93 is talking about grace and showing that just as Jesus became the father through grace, so to do we as we allow the spirit into our lives. We can reject it but it is constantly being poured out upon us. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by clarkgoble

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Right, but I disagree that Christ's actions proves that he thinks we "deserve" grace.  His actions simply show that he loves perfectly.  The scriptures are clear that what we "deserve" according to the law, is eternal physical and spiritual death as we all have sin.  We do not deserve or earn his grace through any merit of our own. .  King Benjamin makes it clear that we cannot say "aught of ourselves" and will forever be indebted to Him.  Unless you know of a way to pay back the debt, there is no way that we can deserve grace.

I don't think that's correct. Alma 42 is pretty clear on this. Although to be fair it depends upon what one means by "deserve." In one sense we're all cut off and justice has its demand. In that sense none of us deserve it. On the other the plan of happiness is that the means will be made for each of us to be free due to mercy. 

If you stop and think about it none of us deserve to be punished for Adam's sin. So in that sense all of us deserve grace. God would be unjust in the deepest sense if he didn't offer grace. We don't deserve it as a reward for our acts though. It's an enabling condition that makes us free to choose. Thus grace is there before we act enabling the act. So to say we deserve it because of what we do neglects the place of God in that very act we take. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by clarkgoble

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I guess I like that Grace was given at the very first and not after all we can do. Maybe some will receive it and love the gift and want to do better because of it and others just dump the gift, I don't know.

My personal feeling is that the best text on grace is King Benjamin's sermon. Particularly Mosiah 2:22-25 where Benjamin is explaining how we are always in debt to God.

"And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you. And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him. And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you."

Chauncey Riddle talking of this aspect of grace used to note that we are less than the dust of the earth because at least the elements do what God tells them.

While not using the term grace, that’s what he’s talking about here. The idea that God's always ahead of us and we're always in his debt. We're progressing grace to grace. Yet at each point what we do is enabled by God so we can't boast of ourselves.

 

Edited April 13, 2017 by clarkgoble

[pogi]

4 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I don't think that's correct. Alma 42 is pretty clear on this. Although to be fair it depends upon what one means by "deserve." In one sense we're all cut off and justice has its demand. In that sense none of us deserve it. On the other the plan of happiness is that the means will be made for each of us to be free due to mercy. 

If you stop and think about it none of us deserve to be punished for Adam's sin. So in that sense all of us deserve grace. God would be unjust in the deepest sense if he didn't offer grace. We don't deserve it as a reward for our acts though. It's an enabling condition that makes us free to choose. Thus grace is there before we act enabling the act. So to say we deserve it because of what we do neglects the place of God in that very act we take. 

This might be a semantics issue because I see Alma 42 as largely supporting my position.  

As far as the fall goes, I would not go as far to say that the consequences for Adam's transgression are not just.  I don't claim to understand the justice of God, but the works of justice make it clear that death was the just consequence for all men because of Adam's transgression.  Who am I to question the justice of God?  Not even God could go against the eternal works of justice in regards to the consequences of Adam's transgression, or else "God would cease to be God."    

Quote

14. And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.

God would not have been "unjust" as you say if he didn't offer mercy.  He would have been perfectly just according to the demands of justice, but he wouldn't have been perfectly merciful.  

4 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

My personal feeling is that the best text on grace is King Benjamin's sermon. Particularly Mosiah 2:22-25 where Benjamin is explaining how we are always in debt to God.

"And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you. And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him. And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you."

Chauncey Riddle talking of this aspect of grace used to note that we are less than the dust of the earth because at least the elements do what God tells them.

While not using the term grace, that’s what he’s talking about here. The idea that God's always ahead of us and we're always in his debt. We're progressing grace to grace. Yet at each point what we do is enabled by God so we can't boast of ourselves.

That is exactly what I am saying.  We are eternally indebted, therefore we don't "deserve" anything in and of ourselves. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by pogi

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

Right, but I disagree that Christ's actions proves that he thinks we "deserve" grace.  His actions simply show that he loves perfectly.  The scriptures are clear that what we "deserve" according to the law, is eternal physical and spiritual death as we all have sin.  We do not deserve or earn his grace through any merit of our own. .  King Benjamin makes it clear that we cannot say "aught of ourselves" and will forever be indebted to Him.  Unless you know of a way to pay back the debt, there is no way that we can deserve grace.

I guess we have to agree on what "deserve" means. If we didn't "deserve" it, why did he bother?