The Mormon church in the end times.

[snowflake]

Hello all,

I have recently been doing a bible study on the end times and prophecy, specifically Daniel, Revelation and Matthew chapter 24. What is the LDS take on Israel and the end times: Specifically, has the LDS church replaced Israel in the book of Revelation (sometimes called replacement theology)? Or is the LDS take that Israel and the church have become the same?  Just trying to understand how the LDS church fits into the book of Revelation. Thanks.

[Bobbieaware]

23 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Hello all,

I have recently been doing a bible study on the end times and prophecy, specifically Daniel, Revelation and Matthew chapter 24. What is the LDS take on Israel and the end times: Specifically, has the LDS church replaced Israel in the book of Revelation (sometimes called replacement theology)? Or is the LDS take that Israel and the church have become the same?  Just trying to understand how the LDS church fits into the book of Revelation. Thanks.

The LDS Church believes the gathering of Israel tales place when members of the human family become converted to Christ and become active members of his Church. We also believe in the literal gathering of the tribes of Israel to the lands of their inheritance, as set forth in the Bible. When the literal gathering of Israel to the lands of their inheritance is accomplished, the headquarters of the Church of Christ will be transferred from what is now the United States to the city of Jerusalem.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[hope_for_things]

30 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Hello all,

I have recently been doing a bible study on the end times and prophecy, specifically Daniel, Revelation and Matthew chapter 24. What is the LDS take on Israel and the end times: Specifically, has the LDS church replaced Israel in the book of Revelation (sometimes called replacement theology)? Or is the LDS take that Israel and the church have become the same?  Just trying to understand how the LDS church fits into the book of Revelation. Thanks.

Well, there are those lost tribes in the North Pole that someone has to find still.  Glad I wasn't born up there, way too cold!  

Edited March 28, 2017 by hope_for_things

[clarkgoble]

34 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Hello all,

I have recently been doing a bible study on the end times and prophecy, specifically Daniel, Revelation and Matthew chapter 24. What is the LDS take on Israel and the end times: Specifically, has the LDS church replaced Israel in the book of Revelation (sometimes called replacement theology)? Or is the LDS take that Israel and the church have become the same?  Just trying to understand how the LDS church fits into the book of Revelation. Thanks.

The typical view is that while the LDS are Israel in a certain sense (either by blood or adoption) that many of the prophecies refer to the remnant of Judah in Israel. So Orson Hyde dedicated Israel for the return of the Jews in the 19th century. Most Mormons see the creation of the state of Israel as part of the fulfillment of that blessing and those prophecies. However Mormons also think the New Jerusalem will be in Missouri, not Jerusalem in Palestine. Mormons think the Jews will have to take up their temple ordinances again but it's not clear how that will be fulfilled.

[longview]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

What is the LDS take on Israel and the end times: Specifically, has the LDS church replaced Israel in the book of Revelation (sometimes called replacement theology)?

Remember the expression in the Bible?  "The last shall be first and the first shall be last" refers to Abraham (and the resulting House of Israel) being the first.  It was among the Jews in Judea (and Galilee) that Jesus confined His ministry (He had this interesting experience with a Syrophenician woman, see Mark 7:24-30).  It was only after the crucifixion that the Apostles of the Lamb were commanded to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles (who were last).

After the Great Apostasy (lasting almost two millennia) the Restoration occurred in America (a Gentile nation fostered by other Gentile nations "nurturing Kings and Queens") as explained by Professor Daniel H. Ludlow in his excellent 1991 Ensign article.  This is how the Gentiles became the first.  There are a number of prophecies about the return of the Jews to the land of Israel and building the temple on Mount Moriah.  The Jews will then be last.

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

When the literal gathering of Israel to the lands of their inheritance is accomplished, the headquarters of the Church of Christ will be transferred from what is now the United States to the city of Jerusalem.

Not correct.  Church authorities have specifically stated that there will be TWO world capitals:  the OLD Jerusalem in Israel and the NEW Jerusalem in Independence Missouri.  Both will be earth shaking powers, unassailable by nations of the world (Babylon the Great).  You should read up the references in the D&C.

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Well, there are those lost tribes in the North Pole that someone has to find still.  Glad I wasn't born up there, way too cold!  

Soon they will come out of the North (also in an earth shaking manner) to join the brethren in the two capitals.

Edited March 28, 2017 by longview

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, snowflake said:

Hello all,

I have recently been doing a bible study on the end times and prophecy, specifically Daniel, Revelation and Matthew chapter 24. What is the LDS take on Israel and the end times: Specifically, has the LDS church replaced Israel in the book of Revelation (sometimes called replacement theology)? Or is the LDS take that Israel and the church have become the same?  Just trying to understand how the LDS church fits into the book of Revelation. Thanks.

You should add 2 Nephi 12:1-3 (Isa 2:1-3), and Jacob 5 & 6 in the Book of Mormon to your reading list.

Some Mormons have erroneously adopted replacement theology (supersessionism) -- a major mistake of both Roman Catholic and Protestant theology.  However, the final gathering of the Jews and of the Mormons are separate but authentic phases of the Latter Days.  See the following:

Epperson, Steven, Mormons and Jews: Early Mormon Theologies of Israel (Signature Books, 1992).  Published Temple University dissertation.  Online at http://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=8133 .

Epperson, Steven, “Some Problems with Supersessionism in Mormon Thought,” BYU Studies, 34/4 (1994), 125-136.  A review of Robert L. Millet and Joseph F. McConkie, Our Destiny: The Call and Election of the House of Israel (SLC: Bookcraft, 1993).  Online at https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/BYUStudies/article/view/6222/5871.

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, longview said:

Soon they will come out of the North (also in an earth shaking manner) to join the brethren in the two capitals.

Chronic shaking from all that time up in the cold North.  I just hope that they don't get all uppity with the rest of us.  

[snowflake]

5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You should add 2 Nephi 12:1-3 (Isa 2:1-3), and Jacob 5 & 6 in the Book of Mormon to your reading list.

Some Mormons have erroneously adopted replacement theology (supersessionism) -- a major mistake of both Roman Catholic and Protestant theology.  However, the final gathering of the Jews and of the Mormons are separate but authentic phases of the Latter Days.  See the following:

You are correct in your assessment of the Catholics and replacement theology, not sure on the Protestants but coming from you I'm sure you are correct.  I've never investigated this LDS idea of two separate phases. I haven't read the LDS prophets' writings about Independence becoming the New Jerusalem. Any resources online you suggest? I don't see replacement theology as being correct when I read through Revelation.  What is the LDS take on the 12 tribes and the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation.

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I haven't read the LDS prophets' writings about Independence becoming the New Jerusalem. Any resources online you suggest?

I suggest that you read all of the D&C sections having to do with Church organization and movement.  Members don't all have the same understanding of how Independence Missouri fits in.

Some think we will go back there and make that place our Church headquarters in the future. Some others think it was a stepping stone to where our Church headquarters is now and that there is no need to move our Church headquarters now.

I suppose we could move it. The land there is much better than in the desert.

[juliann]

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

The LDS Church believes the gathering of Israel tales place when members of the human family become converted to Christ and become active members of his Church. We also believe in the literal gathering of the tribes of Israel to the lands of their inheritance, as set forth in the Bible. When the literal gathering of Israel to the lands of their inheritance is accomplished, the headquarters of the Church of Christ will be transferred from what is now the United States to the city of Jerusalem.

And exactly who are the "literal" ten tribes? People with the right last names? People who live in certain places? Because there are no pure bloodlines, we would all qualify with this level of distribution of DNA. So what land is my inheritance?

[bluebell]

Here is the basic LDS belief about the gathering of Israel in the last days-

The gathering of Israel

The house of Israel shall be gathered together in the last days before the coming of Christ (A of F 1:10). The Lord gathers His people Israel when they accept Him and keep His commandments.

He will lift up an ensign and they shall come, Isa. 5:26.

With great mercies will I gather thee, Isa. 54:7.

Israel and Judah are to be gathered to their lands, Jer. 30:3.

The Lord shall gather the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, Ezek. 28:25.

In the dispensation of the fulness of times he will gather in one all things in Christ, Eph. 1:10.

After Israel is scattered, they will be gathered, 1 Ne. 15:12–17.

The Lord will gather in all people of the house of Israel, 1 Ne. 19:16 (3 Ne. 16:5).

They shall be brought out of darkness and know that the Lord is their Savior, 1 Ne. 22:12.

God gathers and numbers his children, 1 Ne. 22:25.

The nations of the Gentiles shall carry Israel forth to the lands of their inheritance, 2 Ne. 10:8(3 Ne. 16:4).

My people and my word shall be gathered as one, 2 Ne. 29:13–14.

The elders are called to gather the elect, D&C 29:7 (D&C 39:11).

I will gather mine elect, D&C 33:6.

Gather so that I may give you my law and that you may be endowed, D&C 38:31–33.

I will recover my people, who are of the house of Israel, D&C 39:11.

The Saints shall come forth, D&C 45:46.

Moses delivered the keys of the gathering, D&C 110:11.

Righteousness and truth will sweep the earth and gather out the Lord’s elect, Moses 7:62.

The gathering is compared to the gathering of eagles to a carcass, JS—M 1:27.

[snowflake]

25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Here is the basic LDS belief about the gathering of Israel in the last days-

The gathering of Israel

The house of Israel shall be gathered together in the last days before the coming of Christ (A of F 1:10). The Lord gathers His people Israel when they accept Him and keep His commandments.

He will lift up an ensign and they shall come, Isa. 5:26.

With great mercies will I gather thee, Isa. 54:7.

Israel and Judah are to be gathered to their lands, Jer. 30:3.

The Lord shall gather the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, Ezek. 28:25.

In the dispensation of the fulness of times he will gather in one all things in Christ, Eph. 1:10.

After Israel is scattered, they will be gathered, 1 Ne. 15:12–17.

The Lord will gather in all people of the house of Israel, 1 Ne. 19:16 (3 Ne. 16:5).

They shall be brought out of darkness and know that the Lord is their Savior, 1 Ne. 22:12.

God gathers and numbers his children, 1 Ne. 22:25.

The nations of the Gentiles shall carry Israel forth to the lands of their inheritance, 2 Ne. 10:8(3 Ne. 16:4).

My people and my word shall be gathered as one, 2 Ne. 29:13–14.

The elders are called to gather the elect, D&C 29:7 (D&C 39:11).

I will gather mine elect, D&C 33:6.

Gather so that I may give you my law and that you may be endowed, D&C 38:31–33.

I will recover my people, who are of the house of Israel, D&C 39:11.

The Saints shall come forth, D&C 45:46.

Moses delivered the keys of the gathering, D&C 110:11.

Righteousness and truth will sweep the earth and gather out the Lord’s elect, Moses 7:62.

The gathering is compared to the gathering of eagles to a carcass, JS—M 1:27.

Are you saying that the LDS is what is referred to as Israel in the Bible? Or that somehow the "LDS church" has replaced Israel?

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Are you saying that the LDS is what is referred to as Israel in the Bible? Or that somehow the "LDS church" has replaced Israel?

Israel was a man with 2 wives (I think, maybe more) and 12 sons and we call him and all of his descendents by that same name, Israel. He and his descendents are of the seed of Abraham, and all of the promises God made to Abraham can only come to us through the house/ nation/ people of Israel, and Jesus Christ. LDS are heirs of the promises through Jesus Christ, mostly though Ephraim, although some LDS get their blessings from some other house/ people of Israel.

So yes, LDS are Israel, or among the house/ people of Israel,  but LDS are not the only people in the house of Israel 

[Bobbieaware]

2 hours ago, longview said:

Remember the expression in the Bible?  "The last shall be first and the first shall be last" refers to Abraham (and the resulting House of Israel) being the first.  It was among the Jews in Judea (and Galilee) that Jesus confined His ministry (He had this interesting experience with a Syrophenician woman, see Mark 7:24-30).  It was only after the crucifixion that the Apostles of the Lamb were commanded to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles (who were last).

After the Great Apostasy (lasting almost two millennia) the Restoration occurred in America (a Gentile nation fostered by other Gentile nations "nurturing Kings and Queens") as explained by Professor Daniel H. Ludlow in his excellent 1991 Ensign article.  This is how the Gentiles became the first.  There are a number of prophecies about the return of the Jews to the land of Israel and building the temple on Mount Moriah.  The Jews will then be last.

Not correct.  Church authorities have specifically stated that there will be TWO world capitals:  the OLD Jerusalem in Israel and the NEW Jerusalem in Independence Missouri.  Both will be earth shaking powers, unassailable by nations of the world (Babylon the Great).  You should read up the references in the D&C.

Soon they will come out of the North (also in an earth shaking manner) to join the brethren in the two capitals.

Not incorrect -- incomplete. I deliberately left out of my post reference to the American New Jerusalem, or city of Zion out of which the world will be governed, so as to avoid confusing Snowfake with information nonessential to a more basic answer to the original question posed. In fact, I have the following cut-and-paste still at the ready, but, like I said, decided not to use it. And just remember, there is a difference between a correct half-answer and an incorrect answer.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory. (Articles of Faith)

 

 

 

[The Nehor]

58 minutes ago, juliann said:

And exactly who are the "literal" ten tribes? People with the right last names? People who live in certain places? Because there are no pure bloodlines, we would all qualify with this level of distribution of DNA. So what land is my inheritance?

Issachar but I would also check with your patriarch.

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

And exactly who are the "literal" ten tribes? People with the right last names? People who live in certain places? Because there are no pure bloodlines, we would all qualify with this level of distribution of DNA. So what land is my inheritance?

Depends on to which tribe you have been assigned in your patriarchal blessing. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Are you saying that the LDS is what is referred to as Israel in the Bible? Or that somehow the "LDS church" has replaced Israel?

Neither exactly.  

The bible is clear that God chose the House of Israel to be His covenant people, with both privileges and responsibilities.  It is thru the House of Israel that God blesses the whole world.  

When the bible uses the term, it can be referring to different things. Sometimes it means the literal kingdom of Israel (a historical society with rulers, wars, etc.), sometimes it's talking about those who are literal descendants of the twelve tribes (such as those who are of the tribe of Judah, or Benjamin, etc. for example), and sometimes it's talking about those who have accepted Christ and have covenanted to follow Him and obey Him.  These can be people who are literal descendents of Israel (Jacob) who have covenanted to follow Christ or those who have been adopted into the family by doing the same.

So, historically, Israel was a specific people and a specific place, but spiritually Israel are the followers of Christ.  

[clarkgoble]

41 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Are you saying that the LDS is what is referred to as Israel in the Bible? Or that somehow the "LDS church" has replaced Israel?

Depends upon the context. The key text for Mormons tends to be Jacob 5. The idea is that gentiles are grafted onto Israel by adoption. 

[snowflake]

37 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Neither exactly.  

The bible is clear that God chose the House of Israel to be His covenant people, with both privileges and responsibilities.  It is thru the House of Israel that God blesses the whole world.  

When the bible uses the term, it can be referring to different things. Sometimes it means the literal kingdom of Israel (a historical society with rulers, wars, etc.), sometimes it's talking about those who are literal descendants of the twelve tribes (such as those who are of the tribe of Judah, or Benjamin, etc. for example), and sometimes it's talking about those who have accepted Christ and have covenanted to follow Him and obey Him.  These can be people who are literal descendents of Israel (Jacob) who have covenanted to follow Christ or those who have been adopted into the family by doing the same.

So, historically, Israel was a specific people and a specific place, but spiritually Israel are the followers of Christ.  

So what about the Jews today who live in Israel (or anywhere) but deny Yeshua. They have historically been known as Jews or Israelites.  It seems to me that this is the Israel spoken of in the book of Revelation. People who have accepted Christ and who have covenanted to follow him are historically know as Christians. Revelation speaks of a literal Israel and a literal 12 tribes of Israel showing up somehow. Do you think that the church has spiritually replaced Israel as God's chosen people? and Israel is irrelevant in the end times or has been disregarded by God? Sorry bluebell just trying to understand your take.  

[juliann]

57 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Issachar but I would also check with your patriarch.

I want Hawaii.

[snowflake]

4 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

The typical view is that while the LDS are Israel in a certain sense (either by blood or adoption) that many of the prophecies refer to the remnant of Judah in Israel. So Orson Hyde dedicated Israel for the return of the Jews in the 19th century. Most Mormons see the creation of the state of Israel as part of the fulfillment of that blessing and those prophecies. However Mormons also think the New Jerusalem will be in Missouri, not Jerusalem in Palestine. Mormons think the Jews will have to take up their temple ordinances again but it's not clear how that will be fulfilled.

Do you think that the Jews will rebuild their temple on temple mount like it was with the animal sacrifices and the Levites running the show? (Solomon's temple). Or do you think it will be the Mormon version with non-Jewish men and women and teenagers performing baptisms for the dead and the other Mormon ordinances?

[juliann]

54 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Depends on to which tribe you have been assigned in your patriarchal blessing. 

You know the predominant tribe, where will they be living? 

You are about to take this far  beyond what the Church does under current theology where we are to gather where we already are....long after the diaspora messed up those bloodlines.  

[snowflake]

10 minutes ago, snowflake said:

So, historically, Israel was a specific people and a specific place, but spiritually Israel are the followers of Christ.  

In Revelation the church is identified by John in the Chapter one as the lampstands Rev 1:20. And there are the 7 letters to the 7 churches Rev chapters 1-3.  Later John speaks of Israel as something completely different in Revelation 2:14, Rev 7:4 and in Rev 21: 12. It just seems to me that the church and Israel are two distinct groups in Revelation. 

[Ahab]

30 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Do you think that the Jews will rebuild their temple on temple mount like it was with the animal sacrifices and the Levites running the show? (Solomon's temple). Or do you think it will be the Mormon version with non-Jewish men and women and teenagers performing baptisms for the dead and the other Mormon ordinances?

Are you familiar with the scripture that talks about how Israel will rejoice when they see their/our Savior return? And how they will be shocked to see nail prints in his hands, as they realize he was the one who was crucified so long ago?  

We, as literal or adopted children of Israel, already know who our Savior is, but they (another branch of Israel) won't be finding that out until then.

[clarkgoble]

41 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Do you think that the Jews will rebuild their temple on temple mount like it was with the animal sacrifices and the Levites running the show? (Solomon's temple). Or do you think it will be the Mormon version with non-Jewish men and women and teenagers performing baptisms for the dead and the other Mormon ordinances?

Joseph believed that the sons of Levi would be sanctified and again offer offerings. It's not clear if that's a one time thing or a restoration of older sacrifices. (Again remembering that Israelite religion likely shifted a fair bit first with Josiah's reforms and then again during the exile, much as it did yet again with the destruction of the second temple and the diaspora)

Authority to practice baptism for the dead requires the Melchezedek Priesthood and keys of those designated at the temple. No reason why Jews couldn't do it, but they'd still be operating under the sealing power which isn't in the lineage based priesthood of Aaron.