I am back... although i am busier than i was before i left

[Mike Reed]

I saw that Scott Lloyd from the Des News is still so dang obsessed about me. As he admitted, he has his clock set from years ago, still counting down from my passing prediction. He is prepared to call me a false prophet, which is strange to me (and perhaps to most of you) since I never claimed prophetic utterance. I DID, however, ask him if he would accept me as a prophet, if my claim turned out to be more true than Elder Holland's 100,000 prediction (prophesy) in future years. I offered ways that missionary work could increase in numbers, if they were extended with regard to the internet, for those serving at home (this expansion hasn't occurred to the level that would remedy my previous passing prediction, although i remain convinced that this field should be expanded for the Church's own good.... although for these missionaries, a 6 week mtc program will never be enough--I would suggest a 3-6 month training period for these folks, so they can be ready for the onslaught that they will face). I also said that missionary statistics could increase if the Church began implying that women were called to the work too (which hasn't happened yet), but that missionary statistics could still also increase if there was focus on the elderly/retired serving missions (which has happened a little). Yet... The continued decline of missionaries has nevertheless confirmed what I said. Never mind what Lloyd said of my prediction. He is obsessed to the point of counting down to the second so he can debunk a claim that i never made. He's... well um... I can't call him names here, so you can fill in the blank.

 

Edited March 26, 2017 by Mike Reed

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Mike Reed said:

I saw that Scott Lloyd from the Des News is still so dang obsessed about me. As he admitted, he has his clock set from years ago, still counting down from my passing prediction. He is prepared to call me a false prophet, which is strange to me (and perhaps to most of you) since I never claimed prophetic utterance. I DID, however, ask him if he would accept me as a prophet, if my claim turned out to be more true than Elder Holland's 100,000 prediction (prophesy) in future years. I offered ways that missionary work could increase in numbers, if they were extended with regard to the internet, for those serving at home (this expansion hasn't occurred to the level that would remedy my previous passing prediction, although i remain convinced that this field should be expanded for the Church's own good.... although for these missionaries, a 6 week mtc program will never be enough--I would suggest a 3-6 month training period for these folks, so they can be ready for the onslaught that they will face). I also said that missionary statistics could increase if the Church began implying that women were called to the work too (which hasn't happened yet), but that missionary statistics could increase if there was focus on the elderly/retired serving missions (which has happened a little). The continued decline of missionaries has nevertheless confirmed what I said. Never mind what Lloyd with my prediction had said.

 

 

Welcome back ole friend. 

[Mike Reed]

Thank you Bill Pops Lee! 

 

[rodheadlee]

It's good to see you back Mike.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 minutes ago, Mike Reed said:

I saw that Scott Lloyd from the Des News is still so dang obsessed about me. As he admitted, he has his clock set from years ago, still counting down from my passing prediction. He is prepared to call me a false prophet, which is strange to me (and perhaps to most of you) since I never claimed prophetic utterance. I DID, however, ask him if he would accept me as a prophet, if my claim turned out to be more true than Elder Holland's 100,000 prediction (prophesy) in future years. I offered ways that missionary work could increase in numbers, if they were extended with regard to the internet, for those serving at home (this expansion hasn't occurred to the level that would remedy my previous passing prediction, although i remain convinced that this field should be expanded for the Church's own good.... although for these missionaries, a 6 week mtc program will never be enough--I would suggest a 3-6 month training period for these folks, so they can be ready for the onslaught that they will face). I also said that missionary statistics could increase if the Church began implying that women were called to the work too (which hasn't happened yet), but that missionary statistics could increase if there was focus on the elderly/retired serving missions (which has happened a little). The continued decline of missionaries has nevertheless confirmed what I said. Never mind what Lloyd with my prediction had said.

Hi Mike.

Could you remind me of the gist of that prediction that Scott is holding you to?

My personal experience with the LDS missionaries who serve online is that they very seldom have difficulty with any anti-Mormon onslaught.  That may be due to the self-selection of those contacting those missionaries.  They tend to have a higher baptism rate than traditional missionaries.  So, you are no doubt right to suggest this is an excellent program, but no need for extra training.

[Mike Reed]

To folks who may not have been around on this forum a couple years ago (i have been around since ZLMB), to remember me. Some have called me anti (although far fewer seem to think so now). I reject that label. I am more of a critic focused on dated apologetic than I am focused on debunking the actual LDS Church.  I am bored now of debunking dated apologetic, though. I am also less of an atheist now. I think my published book (linked to below) has offered a good illustration for the sort of balance scholarship that I seek to promote. 

Edited March 26, 2017 by Mike Reed

[juliann]

Welcome back, Mike!  Although I do have to say going after our beloved Scott Loyd  might be a bit of a rough start,

I don't get why you are doing dated apologetic as a critic. Don't you want the best stuff to built your positions? Or did you think that only believers do apologetics.....I wish I had kept better track of the critic apologetics because it has been very interesting to see what has been dropped by the wayside, without so much as an oops.

As for pro-church apologetics, I think anyone who keeps up would share your distaste of "dated" apologetics. 

And nobody really uses "anti" around here anymore, it seems to be reserved for the Evangelical ministry types. But the critics are loathe to give up using apologist as a broad brush smear. I hope the balance of scholarship you advocate includes using names, or at least schools of thought, rather than labels. 

 

[Mike Reed]

Among my more recently offered studies is on the topic of "Treasure Seeking and Vicarious Work for the Dead." We have all heard the story about JS and his treasure seeking, which is perceived as an activity (however perceived as superstitious) overwhelmingly perceived as being focused on monetary gain. It wasn't solely focused on that. It was overwhelmingly perceived as a vicarious act... just as it was with regard to freeing the gini otherwise trapped in the bottle... otherwise trapped until he granted three wishes... the conception among treasure seekers was very similar: that many of the spirit guardians were trapped in a quasi-limbo state, until the treasure was retrieved. masses for the dead, prayers for the dead, and even a proxy baptism/sacrifice was performed on a rooster (to trick the devilish guardian who demanded a christian be sacrificed), in their behalf. There are also old traditions held among these "necromantic" (i put it in quotes, because these were pious efforts held by those who believed in pious traditions) treasure seekers... which speak, especially in Irish/Scottish lore of raising the dead in order to baptize them.

 

[Mike Reed]

I posted in response to scott lloyd, since he was the one who appeared in my google search to remind me of this forum. Thankfully, many people challenged his claims in my absence, and many of whom I doubt I have ever conversed with. Is Scott Lloyd someone that I should worry about, with regard to my activity here? There were more than a few formal CFR's that moderation never honored. I suspect perhaps yes. I suspect i was previously banned because of my previous exchanges with him. But if that be true, and if you are looking for a replacement for his moderation, i think I will do a far better job.

 

Edited March 26, 2017 by Mike Reed

[juliann]

I'd like to hear more about that.

Starting thread with personal stuff isn't considered the best form. And I don't remember you being banned. I think you will find a lot more people who are just as interested in knowing what really happened....as long as it isn't just a lead in to an excuse to put the worst possible interpretation on it for church bashing. Many are quite weary of that. So if it is a professional approach rather than a polemical one....good stuff.

Edited March 26, 2017 by juliann

[Mike Reed]

But hi Jullian! I missed you! <3

[Mike Reed]

Oh shoot. i forgot that rule. I guess i was just saying why i was re-alerted to this forum again. Weren't Loyd's posts about me personal? Never mind. I am glad to be here. And i like most of the moderation offered here. Especially that offered by you.

[Mike Reed]

58 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Quote

 

Hi Mike.

Could you remind me of the gist of that prediction that Scott is holding you to?

My personal experience with the LDS missionaries who serve online is that they very seldom have difficulty with any anti-Mormon onslaught.  That may be due to the self-selection of those contacting those missionaries.  They tend to have a higher baptism rate than traditional missionaries.  So, you are no doubt right to suggest this is an excellent program, but no need for extra training.

 

I predicted that missionary numbers would continue to fall. Lloyd asked me how far they would fall, and I said "I don't know". Needless to say, I have been right. They have continued to fall since then... and are in the opposite direction of the trajectory that Elder Holland predicted for the coming years. This may still be achieved, but i doubt it will ever be achieved unless alternatives to the missionary program as I have suggested are put into place (or put into place other alternatively great ideas). The only relatively significant push to expanding the missionary program as i have suggested, is in regards to encouraging retired members to serving missions. But even that has been rather minimal. I think there could be a stronger push in this area, as well as a stronger emphasis on internet missionaries working from home, and also (which id didn't mention here, but i mentioned in Lloyd's thread) Church leadership suggesting that women are expected/ordained to serve missions too. I also suggested that offering more service orientated/less proselytizing missionary work could also expand the missionary numbers. Lloyd claimed that I was saying that Missionary Work needed to be redefined. I have never considered my suggestions to expand missionary work to be outside the bounds already defined by the church.  

About the need to train missionaries. You may be right. I guess I just assumed that basic apologetic arguments would extend the otherwise traditional period of 6 weeks. I assumed that a traditional month and a half needed for preparation of the basics of missionary work... that more would be needed... not only to be more informed, but to also train them how to best deal with trolls. How much more/less would you expect for them on the internet? I thought the 3 of my 3-6 month range offered a conservative option.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2017 by Mike Reed

[Robert F. Smith]

12 minutes ago, Mike Reed said:

I predicted that missionary numbers would continue to fall. Lloyd asked me how far they would fall, and I said "I don't know". Needless to say, I have been right. They have continued to fall since then... and are in the opposite direction of the trajectory that Elder Holland predicted for the coming years. This may still be achieved, but i doubt it will ever be achieved unless alternatives to the missionary program as I have suggested are put in place. The only relatively significant push to expanding the missionary program in regards to encourage of retired members serving missions. I think there could be a stronger push in this area, as well as a stronger emphasis on internet missionaries working from home, and also (which id didn't mention here, but i mentioned in Lloyd's thread) Church leadership suggesting that women are expected/ordained to serve missions too.

About the need to train missionaries. You may be right. I guess I just assumed that basic apologetic arguments would extend the otherwise traditional period of 6 weeks. I assumed that a traditional month and a half needed for preparation of the basics of missionary work... that more would be needed... not only to be more informed, but to also train them how to best deal with trolls. How much more/less would you expect for them on the internet? I thought the 3 of my 3-6 month range offered a conservative option.

That might require a radical change in missionary philosophy, moving in the direction of Protestant and Catholic missionaries being deeply trained in advanced theology, which is very unlikely in my opinion.  As you know, the primary Mormon method has long been to ignore the trolls, testify of the truth of the Gospel, and depend on the witness of the Holy Spirit to do the converting.  And that is pretty much what the online missionaries do as well.

[Mike Reed]

8 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That might require a radical change in missionary philosophy, moving in the direction of Protestant and Catholic missionaries being deeply trained in advanced theology, which is very unlikely in my opinion.  As you know, the primary Mormon method has long been to ignore the trolls, testify of the truth of the Gospel, and depend on the witness of the Holy Spirit to do the converting.  And that is pretty much what the online missionaries do as well.

I wouldn't say that my 3 month suggested minimum meets the level of training for typically called evangelizing protestant or catholic missionaries. not even for my 6 month suggested maximum. i am not suggesting that this level of training should be given to all who enter the missionary field. just internet missionaries, who will have to deal with trolls (if their conversations are public in social media)... moreover, there will be no geographical assignment, which would also demand a more rigorous training. Besides... being like the Catholics and Protestants, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Or is it?

 

Edited March 26, 2017 by Mike Reed

[Mike Reed]

But whether I am right or wrong about the importance of further training internet missionaries.... my point is that expanding enrollment of internet missionaries would help to remedy the continued fall in numbers. So would expanding non-proselytizing/service oriented missions. So also would a greater emphasis on retired couples serving (which has been slightly emphasized lately, but not nearly enough). So also would statements from the brethren for a greater level of divine appointment upon the shoulders of women. None of this has happen to a sufficient enough level to remedy the steady decline that I predicted years ago. 

Edited March 26, 2017 by Mike Reed

[Robert F. Smith]

3 minutes ago, Mike Reed said:

I wouldn't say that my 3 month suggested minimum meets the level of training for typically called evangelizing protestant or catholic missionaries. not even for my 6 month suggested maximum. i am not suggesting that this level of training should be given to all who enter the missionary field. just internet missionaries, who will have to deal with trolls (if their conversations are public in social media)... moreover, there will be no geographical assignment, which would also demand a more rigorous training. Besides... being like the Catholics and Protestants, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Or is it?

Not bad, just different.  From what I have been told by the online missionaries (working in skype fashion), they have no problem with trolls, shutting them down immediately -- if they even show up, and they don't seem to bother the missionaries anyhow.

If you are referring to public blogs, such as this one, of course that takes far more sophistication along with effective moderation.  However, I cannot imagine that the LDS Church would sponsor or allow anything like that.

As to advanced seminary training and even degrees in church history, doctrine, theology, and biblical languages, I would favor that, but I don't see the LDS Church moving in that direction at all. I would even recommend that Mormon Studies at places like the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley be fully endowed by CES, and that selected students be given full scholarships.  I think that the Protestants and Catholics are wise to do that with their formal seminaries.

[Mike Reed]

The Church could also announce that women can enter the mission at age 18 too... which I would applaud. But this would still not stop the steady decline that I predicted to Lloyd years ago. As I said, missionary enrollment will continue to decline. Lloyd asked, how far? I said, "I don't know". I don't know. I don't know what the Church might do to help to fix this fallout. if they do nothing, well... Elder Holland's prediction will fail miserably... and some might think I was even prophetic :-P (especially since Lloyd has protested so much).

Edited March 26, 2017 by Mike Reed

[Mike Reed]

19 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Not bad, just different.  From what I have been told by the online missionaries (working in skype fashion), they have no problem with trolls, shutting them down immediately -- if they even show up, and they don't seem to bother the missionaries anyhow.

If you are referring to public blogs, such as this one, of course that takes far more sophistication along with effective moderation.  However, I cannot imagine that the LDS Church would sponsor or allow anything like that.

As to advanced seminary training and even degrees in church history, doctrine, theology, and biblical languages, I would favor that, but I don't see the LDS Church moving in that direction at all. I would even recommend that Mormon Studies at places like the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley be fully endowed by CES, and that selected students be given full scholarships.  I think that the Protestants and Catholics are wise to do that with their formal seminaries.

You are probably right on the limited avenues that internet Missionaries are called to today. There will still be trolls, and even if the selected forums for them to participate in are heavily moderated, to delete them out of existence with a mere click... i fear that this won't be enough. I am not suggesting advanced seminary training. That would be great, but it's not an option. Neither do I see the church moving in this direction.... or even in the direction of extending training to 3-6 months. What I am suggesting is not a prediction of what they will do. It is a suggestion that could help to counter the predicted decline that i said years ago would happen. The Church hasn't done much at all that i suggested long ago (not that they are listening, neither am I a person for them to listen to). I am afraid that Missionary numbers will continue in it's decline, even though i think a few of my several suggestions were worth hearing. Anyhow... we will hear the new numbers very soon, and i am quite confident that the decline will continue, as I predicted.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Mike Reed

[Calm]

Scott may not show up in this thread.  He has taken a semivacation (hopefully) from the board and given he will be quite busy the next few weeks with work, he may not even peek in.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, Mike Reed said:

You are probably right on the limited avenues that internet Missionaries are called to today. There will still be trolls, and even if the selected forums for them to participate in are heavily moderated, to delete them out of existence with a mere click... i fear that this won't be enough............

.......................

The online missionaries are not blogging, but doing face-to-face teaching via the likes of Skype, so getting rid of trolls (in a  nice way) is no real problem.  As ever, the Mormon missionary is there to teach, not to be taught.

[JulieM]

20 hours ago, Mike Reed said:

You are probably right on the limited avenues that internet Missionaries are called to today. There will still be trolls, and even if the selected forums for them to participate in are heavily moderated, to delete them out of existence with a mere click... i fear that this won't be enough. I am not suggesting advanced seminary training. That would be great, but it's not an option. Neither do I see the church moving in this direction.... or even in the direction of extending training to 3-6 months. What I am suggesting is not a prediction of what they will do. It is a suggestion that could help to counter the predicted decline that i said years ago would happen. The Church hasn't done much at all that i suggested long ago (not that they are listening, neither am I a person for them to listen to). I am afraid that Missionary numbers will continue in it's decline, even though i think a few of my several suggestions were worth hearing. Anyhow... we will hear the new numbers very soon, and i am quite confident that the decline will continue, as I predicted.

It will be interesting to hear the numbers announced at the upcoming GC.  It's nice to see you here!  I wasn't around for your initial predictions, but I've followed the more recent threads about them.  Scott is a decent guy, IMO, and I think he'll admit you're right if the numbers continue to fall.  The latest number publicly referred to, do show a decline (at a missionary fireside?), but the official number will be from the GC stats and we'll know soon!

Edited March 26, 2017 by JulieM

[The Nehor]

Welcome back whoever you are.

[Jeanne]

Hey Mr. Mike Reed..

Quote

Quote

 

Whoops...dropped my mouse..bent over and got these cute quotes here up top.  Anyway, I signed on in 2009..and I remember reading of you ..and maybe you were still around.  I do know of Scott and his predictions.  Just wondering if you are anywhere predictive on why missionaries are returning home early.  I may be wrong but have heard that this has increased.  Maybe better preparation before missionaries in any kind of field would be a good thing.  I feel for them.  Welcome back...Scott checks in once in a while. 

[mfbukowski]

On 3/25/2017 at 6:00 PM, Mike Reed said:

I saw that Scott Lloyd from the Des News is still so dang obsessed about me. As he admitted, he has his clock set from years ago, still counting down from my passing prediction. He is prepared to call me a false prophet, which is strange to me (and perhaps to most of you) since I never claimed prophetic utterance. I DID, however, ask him if he would accept me as a prophet, if my claim turned out to be more true than Elder Holland's 100,000 prediction (prophesy) in future years. I offered ways that missionary work could increase in numbers, if they were extended with regard to the internet, for those serving at home (this expansion hasn't occurred to the level that would remedy my previous passing prediction, although i remain convinced that this field should be expanded for the Church's own good.... although for these missionaries, a 6 week mtc program will never be enough--I would suggest a 3-6 month training period for these folks, so they can be ready for the onslaught that they will face). I also said that missionary statistics could increase if the Church began implying that women were called to the work too (which hasn't happened yet), but that missionary statistics could still also increase if there was focus on the elderly/retired serving missions (which has happened a little). Yet... The continued decline of missionaries has nevertheless confirmed what I said. Never mind what Lloyd said of my prediction. He is obsessed to the point of counting down to the second so he can debunk a claim that i never made. He's... well um... I can't call him names here, so you can fill in the blank.

 

Great to see you here finally!