JLHPROF Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 I was thinking the other day about our inevitable final judgment, when we are all called to stand at the bar of Christ and be weighed in the balance and other such poetic turns of phrase. So I am wondering how people picture that, based on the available doctrines and teachings etc. Do you see a courtroom (throne room) where you get an opportunity to argue your case? That seems unlikely. Do you see a courtroom (throne room) where a sentence is handed down on an already decided verdict of your life? Do you see it more like getting your report card at the end of term and seeing what grade the instructor gave you? Do you see it more like a Bishop/SP interview where you answer questions and are either given the recommend or denied one? What style of "final judgment" do you think might await us? 2 Link to comment
rongo Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I was thinking the other day about our inevitable final judgment, when we are all called to stand at the bar of Christ and be weighed in the balance and other such poetic turns of phrase. So I am wondering how people picture that, based on the available doctrines and teachings etc. Do you see a courtroom (throne room) where you get an opportunity to argue your case? That seems unlikely. Do you see a courtroom (throne room) where a sentence is handed down on an already decided verdict of your life? Do you see it more like getting your report card at the end of term and seeing what grade the instructor gave you? Do you see it more like a Bishop/SP interview where you answer questions and are either given the recommend or denied one? What style of "final judgment" do you think might await us? I think we'll all know full well (perfect recall of everything, Spirit, God's presence, etc.) and be in full accord with the judgment (i.e., we would reach the same judgment as God). This, due to being able to abide whatever glory we are (and knowing and feeling what glory we cannot). So, good thing it wasn't a poll. I don't think your four options quite work. Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted March 24, 2017 Author Share Posted March 24, 2017 6 minutes ago, rongo said: I think we'll all know full well (perfect recall of everything, Spirit, God's presence, etc.) and be in full accord with the judgment (i.e., we would reach the same judgment as God). This, due to being able to abide whatever glory we are (and knowing and feeling what glory we cannot). So, good thing it wasn't a poll. I don't think your four options quite work. I wasn't giving any limitations on how that judgment will work. But you also didn't address the style in which judgment will be presented. I am curious if people think these scriptures are a literal or poetic description. 2 Nephi 33:11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness. Jacob 6:9 Know ye not that if ye will do these things, that the power of the redemption and the resurrection, which is in Christ, will bring you to stand with shame and awful guilt before the bar of God? Moroni 10:27 And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust? Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. D&C 128:7 You will discover in this quotation that the books were opened; and another book was opened, which was the book of life; but the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works; consequently, the books spoken of must be the books which contained the record of their works, and refer to the records which are kept on the earth. And the book which was the book of life is the record which is kept in heaven; the principle agreeing precisely with the doctrine which is commanded you in the revelation contained in the letter which I wrote to you previous to my leaving my place—that in all your recordings it may be recorded in heaven. And Alma 5:17-25. I am not stating that there will be debate. I am asking if you think the courtroom (judgment bar) or throne room (judgment seat) are poetic devices or will there literally be a court? Will a verdict be handed down? Link to comment
JAHS Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 If you are talking about the final judgment, I think it's mostly meant to be figurative. By the time we get to that point we will already have an idea what the final judgment will be based on our condition in the spirit world after we die, whether we came forth in the morning of the first resurrection or sometime later, and our position and activity on the earth during the millennium. 1 Link to comment
Bobbieaware Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 36 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I was thinking the other day about our inevitable final judgment, when we are all called to stand at the bar of Christ and be weighed in the balance and other such poetic turns of phrase. So I am wondering how people picture that, based on the available doctrines and teachings etc. Do you see a courtroom (throne room) where you get an opportunity to argue your case? That seems unlikely. Do you see a courtroom (throne room) where a sentence is handed down on an already decided verdict of your life? Do you see it more like getting your report card at the end of term and seeing what grade the instructor gave you? Do you see it more like a Bishop/SP interview where you answer questions and are either given the recommend or denied one? What style of "final judgment" do you think might await us? Good topic! I'll return and report on some of my thoughts when I have time. Very busy at present. Link to comment
clarkgoble Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 I don't think we really know. My guess, although it's only a guess, is that we'll largely judge ourselves. i.e. the test is less for God to learn about us than for us to learn what it is we really want. Then if we want, God will allow us to continue to progress in that direction. Many people discovering who they are don't want to. What's the old joke? For some people hell would be an eternity of home teaching while for others that would be a heaven. So God sends you where you'd be happiest. 1 Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted March 24, 2017 Author Share Posted March 24, 2017 6 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: if we want, God will allow us to continue to progress in that direction. Many people discovering who they are don't want to. Isn't that proving to be the truth! So many people simply wouldn't want heaven. 8 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: God sends you where you'd be happiest. That's what we tell a lot of people. I don't think that means everyone will be happy about the judgment. Something about weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth when they find out what they missed out on. They will be sent to the glory they can abide and will be most comfortable with. But it may be wrong to suggest they will be happy knowing what they could have had and rejected. Link to comment
Gray Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) Something like this? (Scene from Divergent) Edited March 24, 2017 by Gray Link to comment
clarkgoble Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Isn't that proving to be the truth! So many people simply wouldn't want heaven. That's what we tell a lot of people. I don't think that means everyone will be happy about the judgment. Something about weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth when they find out what they missed out on. They will be sent to the glory they can abide and will be most comfortable with. But it may be wrong to suggest they will be happy knowing what they could have had and rejected. Yeah, that's an important distinction. I suspect when the veil is finally lifted we may not be happy to discover what it is we really want. Link to comment
Duncan Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 If we are going to stand before his bar, I hope it's like the Cheers one and when you walk into it everyone happily yells your name 2 Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted March 24, 2017 Author Share Posted March 24, 2017 Just now, Duncan said: If we are going to stand before his bar, I hope it's like the Cheers one and when you walk into it everyone happily yells your name ..."Well done my good and faithful servant." 1 Link to comment
Ahab Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 It's not quite clear in my mind but I have a visual of a huge convention center type building divided into 2 main areas with people divided on either the left or the right of the main stand where our Father and our Savior will be. Not all of us will be in there at the same time, I imagine because we will all want to see our Father and our Lord on the stand and there is no place big enough for all of us together, but as each of us stands there, whenever we do, we will be remembering everything we knew before we came here and everything we did in our lives. And then we will know what our Father thinks of us and how well or how badly we did, and then each of us will commune with him in our minds. And soon after the doors ahead of us will open and we will be ushered to where we should go while we feel that is where we should go. And yes there will still be a lot of moaning and groaning. And nobody will be able to commit suicide. Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted March 24, 2017 Author Share Posted March 24, 2017 13 minutes ago, Gray said: Something like this? (Scene from Divergent) Or will it be more like: Congratulations! Here is your eternal permanent record. Good luck getting into Harvard with those scores... Link to comment
Ahab Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Gray said: Something like this? (Scene from Divergent) Much bigger than that and with only 2 main divisions instead of 5 like that. And we will all be standing, not sitting. We won't be in there for very long. Edited March 24, 2017 by Ahab Link to comment
rongo Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: I wasn't giving any limitations on how that judgment will work. But you also didn't address the style in which judgment will be presented. I am curious if people think these scriptures are a literal or poetic description. 2 Nephi 33:11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness. Jacob 6:9 Know ye not that if ye will do these things, that the power of the redemption and the resurrection, which is in Christ, will bring you to stand with shame and awful guilt before the bar of God? Moroni 10:27 And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust? Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. D&C 128:7 You will discover in this quotation that the books were opened; and another book was opened, which was the book of life; but the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works; consequently, the books spoken of must be the books which contained the record of their works, and refer to the records which are kept on the earth. And the book which was the book of life is the record which is kept in heaven; the principle agreeing precisely with the doctrine which is commanded you in the revelation contained in the letter which I wrote to you previous to my leaving my place—that in all your recordings it may be recorded in heaven. And Alma 5:17-25. I am not stating that there will be debate. I am asking if you think the courtroom (judgment bar) or throne room (judgment seat) are poetic devices or will there literally be a court? Will a verdict be handed down? Yes, I do take these literally. I think we will face Jesus face to face, and we will have a perfect recollection of everything (with the full knowledge, unveiled by the Veil). Reed Benson, my Book of Mormon teacher (President Benson's son everyone freaked out about because he was a John Bircher) calls Nephi's parting shot where he says that he will face us at the bar "It's now or Nephi!" Have you seen the movie "Defending Your Life" (Merryl Streep and Al Brooks, I believe). Funny, and interesting to some extent from an LDS standpoint. In the movie, you await judgment in Judgment City and are assigned an attorney. Al Brooks was a crooked, callous Wall St. baron who let his true love get away from him for filthy lucre. Merryl Streep lived a saintly life. They fall in love in Judgment City, and Brooks' attorney is awful. Streep's judges have her attorney rewinding the film several times so they can weep as they watch her save children out of burning buildings, etc. In the end, he doesn't make it, and she of course does (I won't give away the ultimate ending. 1 Link to comment
Ahab Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 4 minutes ago, rongo said: Have you seen the movie "Defending Your Life" (Merryl Streep and Al Brooks, I believe). Funny, and interesting to some extent from an LDS standpoint. Funny, but not very much in line with our understanding of how things will be. I do like the idea of all food tasting better than ever with no need to worry about getting fat. But too many pies is still not good, no matter how much anybody likes pie. Link to comment
probablyHagoth7 Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: So many people simply wouldn't want heaven. Or, perhaps there are simply differing opinions/hopes as to what heaven is? What one might deem to be heaven, another might opt for a different looking/functioning mansion. Thoughts? Link to comment
The Nehor Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 You will be granted the glory of the celestial if, after entering the presence of God, you want to stay. 2 Link to comment
Bobbieaware Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I was thinking the other day about our inevitable final judgment, when we are all called to stand at the bar of Christ and be weighed in the balance and other such poetic turns of phrase. So I am wondering how people picture that, based on the available doctrines and teachings etc. Do you see a courtroom (throne room) where you get an opportunity to argue your case? That seems unlikely. Do you see a courtroom (throne room) where a sentence is handed down on an already decided verdict of your life? Do you see it more like getting your report card at the end of term and seeing what grade the instructor gave you? Do you see it more like a Bishop/SP interview where you answer questions and are either given the recommend or denied one? What style of "final judgment" do you think might await us? Based upon the following except from Doctrine & Covenants 76, it appears the final judgement is going to be a time of great rejoicing, celebration and thanksgiving, and, except for the sons of perdition, it appears all others will be forgiven, saved and blessed with as much heavenly glory as they are willing and able to enjoy. The only ones who will not receive an inheritance in one of the Father's heavenly mansions of glory will be those who are in a state of utter rebellion against God and Christ, and, therefore, refuse to exercise faith in the atoning Savior, repent of their sins, receive divinely-decreed forgiveness for those sins, and, finally, rise from the dead to gratefully and joyfully receive salvation as beings of varying degrees of resurrected heavenly glory. If there will be any real sorrow and mourning associated with the day of final judgement, it seems that time will come when God's verdict of eternal punishment is pronounced upon the resurrected sons of perdition and they are cast into outer darkness devoid of any measure of heavenly glory. It seems likely that when the redeemed witness the expulsion of the sons of perdition they will weep bitterly for them, just as God and all the hosts of heaven wept for the wicked as recorded in Enoch's account in the Book of Moses. Amen. 32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; 34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come— 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— 37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; 38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. 39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made. 40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us— 41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucifiedfor the world, and kto bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness; 42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him; 43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. 44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment. (Doctrine & Covenants 76) Edited March 25, 2017 by Bobbieaware 1 Link to comment
JulieM Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 14 hours ago, rongo said: Have you seen the movie "Defending Your Life" (Merryl Streep and Al Brooks, I believe). Funny, and interesting to some extent from an LDS standpoint. In the movie, you await judgment in Judgment City and are assigned an attorney. Al Brooks was a crooked, callous Wall St. baron who let his true love get away from him for filthy lucre. Merryl Streep lived a saintly life. They fall in love in Judgment City, and Brooks' attorney is awful. Streep's judges have her attorney rewinding the film several times so they can weep as they watch her save children out of burning buildings, etc. In the end, he doesn't make it, and she of course does (I won't give away the ultimate ending. My family loves that movie and we quote it often. Our favorite is the "little brains" quote and bragging about the percentage of your brain that you use As far as an answer to the OP, I always was terrified when someone taught that everyone would be there watching a movie of our life and seeing everything we'd ever done wrong. I now believe it will be private and personal and we will know any judgement given is fair and just. We will know and agree. I think much of the sorrow will be over whether or not we'll be with our family members for eternity. I believe we will be with those we love if they desire to be with us too. 1 Link to comment
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 I think final judgment is a loving life review involving Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Link to comment
USU78 Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 We have bright recollection of our guilt. He tells us well done. We acknowledge His judgments are just. We are that we might have joy. Link to comment
ERayR Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, JulieM said: My family loves that movie and we quote it often. Our favorite is the "little brains" quote and bragging about the percentage of your brain that you use As far as an answer to the OP, I always was terrified when someone taught that everyone would be there watching a movie of our life and seeing everything we'd ever done wrong. I now believe it will be private and personal and we will know any judgement given is fair and just. We will know and agree. I think much of the sorrow will be over whether or not we'll be with our family members for eternity. I believe we will be with those we love if they desire to be with us too. If you have repented you will watch an edited version which leaves out the parts of which you have repented. Edited March 25, 2017 by ERayR 2 Link to comment
Ahab Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 1 hour ago, ERayR said: If you have repented you will watch an edited version which leaves out the parts of which you have repented. I think the "screen" will be in our own minds, though, rather than everyone in the judgment hall seeing it. And rather than just a cut I think our Father may share a few thoughts about how overcoming those weaknesses helped us grow and how pleased he was to see that. Link to comment
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