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Jeanne

What To Do...Giving Up

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4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you for your loving thoughts and offer.  My brother has stepped in to talk to him a couple of times..and it just ended up a battle between the two.  This is why when Dad talks to  me about the church, he waits until we are alone.  Short of an apostle, I don't think anything would sway.  But I do honor him.  I moved out there and took care of him while his wife was in the hospital.  Several of the grandkids have his wonderful musical talents and we do love him.  I believe like someone mentioned here before..that most adamant to save me because he feels a huge responsibility and probably feels he has failed.  I so appreciate this though.  I do.  You guys have been great about this.  I did offer to sit down with him and his Bishop and have a more calm discussion.   That might still work out.  I will keep all of you posted.  As it is, I know he is dealing with a very sick wife and he will be 96 in June..I mean really....I want him to live his days full as he can with happiness and assurance of his faith.

Jeanne

Maybe somone on here knows an apostle that could say something during conference?

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2 hours ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

 

Just in case I was misunderstood in an earlier post, I wasn't suggesting we have to pretend a parent was perfect...or even close. (I don't expect such from my kids.)

I didn't read through the responses, Hagoth. It is always better to get a variety of opinions ;-)

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37 minutes ago, juliann said:

I didn't read through the responses, Hagoth...

Gasp!! My posts aren't everyone's rush priority when first logging in? ;0)

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14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe somone on here knows an apostle that could say something during conference?

Ooooo...wouldn't that be cool...because he always calls to see if I am watching conference.  That day we were together...it all started with the Deseret News and the magazine.  I told him I was acquainted with Scott Lloyd and we read his article together.  I was thinking  that maybe..I might put him in touch with Scott  That Scott might be able to at least let him know that I am not lying about what I have learned and that all these things can be found on LDS.org. ..not that we talked about specifics (because I don't want to hurt him) just the essays and the November policy of 2015.  Will think about this.  Thanks so much for your input her and prayers Tacenda!!

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13 hours ago, juliann said:

I didn't read through the responses, Hagoth. It is always better to get a variety of opinions ;-)

Juliann, I replied to your post last night and lost the whole darn thing!!!  Now if I could just delete my bills like that...:P  Thanks for your thoughts and it was comforting to know that I am not a lone on "liking parents".  I honor Dad because he is my father and he has many good qualities...that being said..honor is not a word that I would use for someone who use to beat my mom.   I should go of the past..I try and really wanted us to get along..there is a limit to the name calling that I can handle..I know he is old...but I still leave the ball in his court because his mind is keen..he knows what he is saying.  Sometimes I let it roll off my back..but it is just getting harder.  The church has been good to him..but in my observation, it has given my Dad as a priesthood holder..some rights he shouldn't have..IMO   Anyway, thank you again.

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Someone can have all their wits, but lose inhibitions as they get up there.  Though your dad seems to have always had poor self control there if he was physically abusive.  Breaks my heart that you have been trying to fix the relationship for your entire life that probably can't be fixed.  We are all still the little girls and boys trying to please Mom and Dad...and if that was impossible as it is in abusers (they abuse because of their failings, no one else's), then the child will never feel at peace.  Hopefully the adult can though and that will be enough.

Did he ever recognize he was abusive, break the cycle?

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Posted (edited)

"is just that he has always been this way in and outside the church, I have had a hard time measuring up."

I am just going to say it.  You have nothing to measure up to.  This guy hit your mother.  Beat her.  There was and possibly is something wrong, something sick and twisted in him.  He didn't get that from the Church or anyone else.  Never, ever in any church teaching was there even a hint that it was remotely acceptable to beat your wife into submission or righteousness or whatever sick excuse he used. Hopefully he has changed and that level of sickness isn't in him anymore, but it may have just taken a less obvious route.

He needs to be crawling to each of his kids and begging their forgiveness.  Nothing he did or can do can ever make up for that.  He can only try not to cause harm in the future...which he apparently has not realized.

You are better than he is, Jeanne.  Stop trying to please him and instead please/protect yourself.  Be kind and loving because that is you, but do whatever you need to do to protect yourself from his verbal abuse.  Don't be his punching bag even if he is using 'godly' words to justify in his mind his desire to dominate unrighteouslt someone else.

If you wouldn't allow him to treat your kids a certain way, don't let him treat you that way.

The Priesthood never gave him any right to abuse.  If he does not sincerely repent and change all his abusive behaviour, he will be held to a higher standard of accountability because of the evil he did while shifting the responsibility to God.  Talk about taking God's name in vain.  He has a few millstones he will be having to chip away at in the next life.

Edited by Calm

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Calm said:

Someone can have all their wits, but lose inhibitions as they get up there.  Though your dad seems to have always had poor self control there if he was physically abusive.  Breaks my heart that you have been trying to fix the relationship for your entire life that probably can't be fixed.  We are all still the little girls and boys trying to please Mom and Dad...and if that was impossible as it is in abusers (they abuse because of their failings, no one else's), then the child will never feel at peace.  Hopefully the adult can though and that will be enough.

Did he ever recognize he was abusive, break the cycle?

Doesn't it seem sad that a church that is pro family can in the end tear families apart, or religion in general? Such a wonderful daughter such as Jeanne is bascially tossed aside in favor of a church. She's not the only one I'm aware of, I know of many just by reading their stories online. I'm afraid to tell some of my friends or family of my disbelief for fear of the same retributions. Not that they'd be as abusive but I believe they won't really like to be around me socially.

Edited by Tacenda

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ignoring family dynamics and putting the blame solely on the Church will only allow the real issues to fester, not heal.

Using the Church as an excuse to abuse is wrong, whether it is done as a believer against an unbelieving family member or the reverse.

I am not saying there are never sincere members who because they do not understand Church teachings well enough build walls or reject other family members who are not believers, but there is abuse outside the Church and until someone produces some statistics showing higher rates within the Church than without, it would be foolish imo to condemn the very thing if actually paid attention to deeply and not just used as a justification for one's own behaviour, can promote better bonds between family members.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Calm said:

ignoring family dynamics and putting the blame solely on the Church will only allow the real issues to fester, not heal.

Using the Church as an excuse to abuse is wrong, whether it is done as a believer against an unbelieving family member or the reverse.

I am not saying there are never sincere members who because they do not understand Church teachings well enough build walls or reject other family members who are not believers, but there is abuse outside the Church and until someone produces some statistics showing higher rates within the Church than without, it would be foolish imo to condemn the very thing if actually paid attention to deeply and not just used as a justification for one's own behaviour, can promote better bonds between family members.

It might be why we have so many angry ex Mormons that are angry with church and can't leave it alone. They wish the church would go down, just to get their families back. I know of several like this, lots of divorces etc. happening out there online. And still, I know there are talks against this from church leaders, but the fact that the church said it's the only true church and that you'll be together forever if you follow it's precepts, than how a spouse would feel if their spouse is an unbeliever is devasting. 

 

Edited by Tacenda

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40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Doesn't it seem sad that a church that is pro family can in the end tear families apart, or religion in general? Such a wonderful daughter such as Jeanne is bascially tossed aside in favor of a church. She's not the only one I'm aware of, I know of many just by reading their stories online. I'm afraid to tell some of my friends or family of my disbelief for fear of the same retributions. Not that they'd be as abusive but I believe they won't really like to be around me socially.

No, it seems sad that we have a society that has demeaned women, hurt them, and promoted it.  It is sad that it has taken our culture this long to start opening eyes. And if you are going to sit back and ignore it so that you can concentrate on each and every excuse an abusive man uses to justify himself, you will never get to the end of them and address the real problems. There aren't enough Mormons in the world to explain away the pervasiveness of misogyny. How easy it would be if there were. 

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3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Ooooo...wouldn't that be cool...because he always calls to see if I am watching conference.  That day we were together...it all started with the Deseret News and the magazine.  I told him I was acquainted with Scott Lloyd and we read his article together.  I was thinking  that maybe..I might put him in touch with Scott  That Scott might be able to at least let him know that I am not lying about what I have learned and that all these things can be found on LDS.org. ..not that we talked about specifics (because I don't want to hurt him) just the essays and the November policy of 2015.  Will think about this.  Thanks so much for your input her and prayers Tacenda!!

Sounds like you might be able to torment him with church stuff, actually ;)

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3 hours ago, Calm said:

Someone can have all their wits, but lose inhibitions as they get up there.  Though your dad seems to have always had poor self control there if he was physically abusive.  Breaks my heart that you have been trying to fix the relationship for your entire life that probably can't be fixed.  We are all still the little girls and boys trying to please Mom and Dad...and if that was impossible as it is in abusers (they abuse because of their failings, no one else's), then the child will never feel at peace.  Hopefully the adult can though and that will be enough.

Did he ever recognize he was abusive, break the cycle?

Physical abuse went away as my Uncle's found out and had a talk with him.  The verbal abuse remained but was just to the women in the home.  One time, I remember Mom running out tjo the driveway screaming for the Bishop.  He lived up the street.  It was years later I realized that whole town pretty much knew what was going on,

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28 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Physical abuse went away as my Uncle's found out and had a talk with him.  The verbal abuse remained but was just to the women in the home.  One time, I remember Mom running out tjo the driveway screaming for the Bishop.  He lived up the street.  It was years later I realized that whole town pretty much knew what was going on,

I hadn't realized it was physical also, sorry I missed that. Of course verbal abuse is just as bad, I'm assuming. Sorry Jeanne. :(

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

It might be why we have so many angry ex Mormons that are angry with church and can't leave it alone. They wish the church would go down, just to get their families back. I know of several like this, lots of divorces etc. happening out there online. And still, I know there are talks against this from church leaders, but the fact that the church said it's the only true church and that you'll be together forever if you follow it's precepts, than how a spouse would feel if their spouse is an unbeliever is devasting. 

 

Undoubtedly devastating, but there are lots of things that are devastating in life and I know of a number of marriages that stuck together when a spouse cheated or abuse occurred because the betrayed spouse was committed to an eternal marriage or both were concerned with the welfare of their children.  Sometimes it even resulted in a better marriage.  Others not so much.  

Plus there are the studies showing that temple marriages have a lower rate of divorce than nontemple marriages.  You can't ignore the times Church teachings and counsel has helped families to stay intact because there are likely times family members responded to fear by rejecting.  With the varied responses to the identical teachings, you need to look at the individual situations just as you would do so in a classroom when wondering why a few students were failing while the vast majority were either doing decently or excelling.  Yes, in those few cases perhaps the teacher had a negative impact, but it would be wiser to first examine the individual's circumstances.  Perhaps they were simply not the personality that does well in school, perhaps there were problems at home with a nonsupportive family that ignore the teacher's efforts to get them involved, read with the kid, ensure he got enough sleep and proper nutrition.

Edited by Calm

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4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I hadn't realized it was physical also, sorry I missed that. Of course verbal abuse is just as bad, I'm assuming. Sorry Jeanne. :(

The physical abuse was mainly directed to my Mom.  That part has all ended...I think it was because my brothers got a whole lot taller..;)

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32 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Physical abuse went away as my Uncle's found out and had a talk with him.  The verbal abuse remained but was just to the women in the home.  One time, I remember Mom running out tjo the driveway screaming for the Bishop.  He lived up the street.  It was years later I realized that whole town pretty much knew what was going on,

I like Juliann's idea.  

Seriously, I find it very difficult to forgive someone of physical abuse.  Verbal can be just as damaging, but easier to wiggle a 'they don't know what they are doing' in hope that they are not really as sick and twisted as they seem.  No one wants to think a total stranger is capable of such, let alone a loved one.

 If he never confessed or recognized it was wrong, but stopped out of fear or reprisal, you don't need to be concerned about protecting his feelings, but you do need to be concerned about protecting yourself.  Please don't let his habits continue to impact your life in a negative way.

I don't have a clue how you can do this if you are required to be one of his caregivers, but please try.

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D

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Doesn't it seem sad that a church that is pro family can in the end tear families apart, or religion in general? Such a wonderful daughter such as Jeanne is bascially tossed aside in favor of a church. She's not the only one I'm aware of, I know of many just by reading their stories online. I'm afraid to tell some of my friends or family of my disbelief for fear of the same retributions. Not that they'd be as abusive but I believe they won't really like to be around me socially.

It is sad.  But listen Tacenda, if you have a close family member you can trust and really need to get things out a little..trust your gut.  My dad just dances to the beat of a different drummer.  Best to you.

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5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I like Juliann's idea.  

Seriously, I find it very difficult to forgive someone of physical abuse.  Verbal can be just as damaging, but easier to wiggle a 'they don't know what they are doing' in hope that they are not really as sick and twisted as they seem.  No one wants to think a total stranger is capable of such, let alone a loved one.

 If he never confessed or recognized it was wrong, but stopped out of fear or reprisal, you don't need to be concerned about protecting his feelings, but you do need to be concerned about protecting yourself.  Please don't let his habits continue to impact your life in a negative way.

I don't have a clue how you can do this if you are required to be one of his caregivers, but please try.

My son is moving out to move in with Dad for when my step-mother passes away.  His job is going to let him work about 30 hours from home..I am just going to make sure for my mental health..that I am not a lone with him too much.  Thanks to all of you...and a big thank you to my son!!

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On 3/25/2017 at 1:33 PM, Tacenda said:

Doesn't it seem sad that a church that is pro family can in the end tear families apart, or religion in general? Such a wonderful daughter such as Jeanne is bascially tossed aside in favor of a church. She's not the only one I'm aware of, I know of many just by reading their stories online. I'm afraid to tell some of my friends or family of my disbelief for fear of the same retributions. Not that they'd be as abusive but I believe they won't really like to be around me socially.

I'm sorry Tacenda, but I can't let such a statement stand... there is nothing.. repeat, nothing... in Church teachings/doctrines/policies that supports actions on the part of any member that approves or suggests tossing aside anyone in favor of the Church... any such actions or abuse on the part of members are that member's own behavioral problem, and goes against Church teachings.  I was inactive for over 30 years, and my parents were nothing but loving and inclusive to me and my non-LDS husband... and my parents were uber TBMs.  I'm not saying there aren't those who do behave as you and Jeanne describe... I'm saying it is against Church teachings and one day they will be held accountable for their actions.  And Jeanne's father will be held accountable for any such abuse to Jeanne and the family.  It is his problem and not "the Church"...  Have you read the "Proclamation" on the Family, particularly paragraphs 6 and 8.  Perhaps you should before you make a general statement that intimates the Church is responsible for tearing families apart...

GG

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1 hour ago, Garden Girl said:

I'm sorry Tacenda, but I can't let such a statement stand... there is nothing.. repeat, nothing... in Church teachings/doctrines/policies that supports actions on the part of any member that approves or suggests tossing aside anyone in favor of the Church... any such actions or abuse on the part of members are that member's own behavioral problem, and goes against Church teachings.  I was inactive for over 30 years, and my parents were nothing but loving and inclusive to me and my non-LDS husband... and my parents were uber TBMs.  I'm not saying there aren't those who do behave as you and Jeanne describe... I'm saying it is against Church teachings and one day they will be held accountable for their actions.  And Jeanne's father will be held accountable for any such abuse to Jeanne and the family.  It is his problem and not "the Church"...  Have you read the "Proclamation" on the Family, particularly paragraphs 6 and 8.  Perhaps you should before you make a general statement that intimates the Church is responsible for tearing families apart...

GG

You haven't been on enough websites to read the stories maybe, and I should say it isn't the church telling people to do these things, it's their construct that pushes to certain actions, such as the doctrine of salvation and not living together as a family if the member leaves the church or does something that caused them to be ex'd. 

Spouses no longer wanting to be married to a non believer etc. Or that being gay at one time was evil, some of the older generation or some that have never known a gay person might disown their child, this has happened over and over. So it's the leaders in the past that taught certain things that hurts families most likely. 

Jeanne probably wouldn't have been treated so harshly if she'd stayed on the records of the church because atleast there's a chance she may become active again.

There are people that believe if you discontinue believing and maybe even become negative or anti then you are an apostate. Apostates in some people's eyes are going to a place close to hell, or hell. So they may want to wash their hands of them. It may be easier to do that then cling to them. 

There are so many scenarios out there that cause a break in families. The families may still communicate and love them but things are never the same. I've read enough stories about thosen too.

http://www.mormonmatters.org/2010/01/19/dysfunctional-families-or-church/ On this link there are some stories both positive and negative. I guess it's a crap shoot. Hopefully this General Conference there will be some talks that will change Jeanne's father's mind, and he'll beg for forgiveness and give her the biggest hug ever.

 
 
mom of 5says :REPLY

The hardest part about leaving the church?
1. Having the bottom fall out of your life and not only doing it alone, but being demonized for doing it.
2. Getting letter after letter from family members who won’t talk to you, but have no problem writing a “call to repentance” letter.
3. Realizing that they will not hear anything you say and that talking to them and trying to explain only pushes them further into their cult.
4. Having your MIL write a letter telling you it is YOUR responsibility to tell her you left the church so she can prevent others from doing the same thing.
5. Losing almost every friend, finding out that the two remaining Mormon “friends” still think if they just hold on long enough their friendship will “bring you back.”
6. Listening to your husband: threaten divorce, tell you, you have no morals, claim we can no longer raise children together, call people to come over and call you to repentance, cast a demon from you. etc.
7. Having ex-mos tell you that you need to be happy so that members don’t see you as the “angry apostate.”
8. Having so much to process and very few people who get it, not even therapists really get it.
9. Realizing that you truly are alone because no matter how many ex-mo friends you make, once you lose family, you have truly lost. The grief is overwhelming.
10. Being in public and having your mind race with questions about every person you see. “What would it be like to be them, Never be mormon, have a family that loves you, be normal?” etc.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I don't get justifying the abusers actions. If the abuser says, "you made me hit you because you didn't cook the way I like you too"  we all know that is justification. A choice made by the abuser. Tomorrow he may hit because you look too pretty. NO! He hits you because he chose to hit you.

Can you imagine what you would say if I came to you and said, "my husband hit me because he eats ice cream at Baskin Robbins. Just goes to show you how bad Baskin Robbins is."

You would tell me "no, he chose to hit you. Baskin Robins is his excuse." 

So if the church teaches you to love your family, that we should use love, not dominance in our relations this means it is the church's fault?

Jeanne - I know this is hard on you.  I can't imagine how tough you have had it.  It may be wise to set some verbal boundaries with your dad. "If you say something about me coming back to church I will leave the room for 10 min, 1 hour, 1 day." Just one example. Ask close friends or family for advice to make sure it is what you want to do. Then if he crosses the boundaries do what you said you would. 

Next, I know this might be incredibly difficult. At some point you may need to recognize that his abuse is his choice.  Nobody gave him permission to do it. Nothing caused it to happen.  I can see all sorts of reasons why that may be hard to accept. 

Edited by Rain

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Tacenda...   Sadly, I'm sure there are many cases, or "stories" like you describe... and, yes, it is sad... but I can cite just as many stories of happy, faithful, healthy families and marriages... people who actually understand and live the gospel, including in regard to those who falter or fall away (people like my parents and the way they treated me when I fell away)...  but that's not the point, i.e., trading stories.  I agree with Calm above that you have to look at individual situations rather than paint with such a broad brush (which you often do) in laying these situations at the feet of "the Church."  

Incidentally... I find the Plan of Salvation to be beautiful, and a source of hope... even those individuals, or "Apostates" as you describe them, who may be in the Telestial Kingdom will be in a Kingdom of Glory with access to a member of the Godhead, described by early Church leaders as a kingdom so glorious that people would be awed... certainly not a place "close to hell" or "hell."  There is no "hell' per se...

GG   

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26 minutes ago, Rain said:

I don't get justifying the abusers actions. If the abuser says, "you made me hit you because you didn't cook the way I like you too"  we all know that is justification. A choice made by the abuser. Tomorrow he may hit because you look to pretty. NO! He his you because he chose to hit you.

Can you imagine what you would say if I came to you and said, "my husband hit me because he eats ice cream at Baskin Robbins. Just goes to show you how bad Baskin Robbins is."

You would tell me "no, he chose to hit you. Baskin Robins is his excuse." 

So if the church teaches you to love your family, that we should use love, not dominance in our relations this means it is the church's fault?

Jeanne - I know this is hard on you.  I can't imagine how tough you have had it.  It may be wise to set some verbal boundaries with your dad. "If you say something about me coming back to church I will leave the room for 10 min, 1 hour, 1 day." Just one example. Ask close friends or family for advice to make sure it is what you want to do. Then if he crosses the boundaries do what you said you would. 

Next, I know this might be incredibly difficult. At some point you may need to recognize that his abuse is his choice.  Nobody gave him permission to do it. Nothing caused it to happen.  I can see all sorts of reasons why that may be hard to accept. 

Thank you so much for your input and advice.  I have FINALLY realized that this whole thing belongs to him.  That there is nothing I could do that would measure up to his expectations.  Even if I went back to church..there would be something else.  It is hard to let go..kind of guilt trip in a way that  I can't sacrifice more to help him.  But, I cannot..for the sake of my own self esteem and worth..Thanks so much.  This board has been a tremendous help in letting in and letting go of a lot of unnecessary baggage that doesn;t belong to me..nor does it belong to the church.  As I said to Tacenda...my father just dances to the beat of a different drummer.  What he sees as priesthood authority..which he mentions a lot..is only his perception of things.  Best to you!

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Good to hear.

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