Joseph Smith and Multiple Mortal Probations

[CMZ]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Here is another relevant piece of evidence. Essentially, Heber C. Kimball claimed that JS, in the Nauvoo period, had declared Kimball's multiple mortal probation doctrine as true. 

As Clark Goble, has brought up on this thread, there is alot of evidence that Heber believed in some version of "multiple probations." He often taught it using various analogies including the repetition of the day/night cycle and the potter's ability to restart a piece on the wheel if it wasn't perfect. 

 One example of the potter analogy:

A couple examples of the day-night cycle analogy:

(If anyone would like to read more, these are drawn from the same document I already linked to, Brian Hale's collection of MMP quotes found here: http://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/MF0081.doc)

If you read more of his relevant sermons, it appears that he believed that resurrection to heaven or hell was simply a repeat of earth life, that is until you were like unto the Son of God and qualified for a "permanent exaltation" (see Heber's sermons in the above document). So, this version of MMP appears to include something like reincarnation, though from the 1846 ordinations in which Heber and Brigham ordain themselves to be Saviors of a world or worlds and members of a Godhead, it seems Heber also believed in the interpretation of the King Follett Sermon and Sermon in the Grove I've argued that George Laub subscribed to, which is that all heirs of Godhood will eventually "pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has" (Laub's notes on JS' Sermon in the Grove). 

In one of Heber's sermons he specifically claimed that Joseph OKed his doctrine, or at least part of it:

Finally, I'd like to point out how nicely Heber's beliefs, as far as we can reconstruct them (i.e. reincarnation for those who haven't obtained a permanent exaltation, and a future Savior role for those who have) aligns with D&C 132:22-25:

I realize that Heber also subscribed to Adam-God doctrine, however I didn't want to address that here because though we have evidence for JS believing and teaching some version of reincarnation and MMP, we don't have good evidence suggesting he subscribed to the idea that Adam was God the Father, while we do have strong evidence suggesting that he believed Adam was next in authority to Jesus Christ. That being said, Brigham Young did state on at least two occasions that Adam-God doctrine was from Joseph, and significantly, Adam-God doctrine inherently includes a version of MMP.  

The above observations create a longer list of those who are on record saying they understood JS to have taught reincarnation, MMP, and/or interaction of resurrected beings from a previous plan of salvation with our earth:

• Eliza R. Snow
• Prescendia Huntington
• Brigham Young
• Heber C. Kimball
• George Laub
• Joseph Lee Robinson

"Eternal lives" largely refers to living beyond yourself in the form of eternal spirit progeny.

[Benjamin Seeker]

3 minutes ago, CMZ said:

"Eternal lives" largely refers to living beyond yourself in the form of eternal spirit progeny.

That explanation comes from Bruce R Mckonkie I believe, so from a historical perspective it has very little weight. Maybe there are more sources on that than I know about though, so please let me know if you have something more contemporary to the time period. This explanation also has the weakness of not addressing the deaths of verse 25, which is presented as a contrasting parallel to eternal lives. My proposal may be speculative, but it is consistent with the text and based on sources from the time period. 

[Benjamin Seeker]

3 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

One should also note that Woodruff disagree strongly with Kimball's views on reincarnation.

I would love to learn more about the disagreement. Wilford Woodruff was on board with Adam-God though, so he did believe in a form of MMP.

On Heber's reliability, I admit I don't know anything about that. However, my argument here isn't based on a single witness, but instead, is based on various corroborating pieces of evidence. For example, Heber's claim that JS accepted reincarnation/multiple probations is supported by Eliza, Huntington, and Robinson, and D&C 132:22-25 is consistent with the idea. I think instead of questioning these people's interpretations of Joseph's teachings, a more solid rebuttal would be to find Nauvoo era or post Nauvoo era evidence against JS believing in reincarnation or something like it and teaching it to those closest to him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CMZ]

16 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

That explanation comes from Bruce R Mckonkie [sic] I believe, so from a historical perspective it has very little weight. Maybe there are more sources on that than I know about though, so please let me know if you have something more contemporary to the time period. This explanation also has the weakness of not addressing the deaths of verse 25, which is presented as a contrasting parallel to eternal lives. My proposal may be speculative, but it is consistent with the text and based on sources from the time period. 

The quotes you keep referring to are inconsistent with a number of scriptures. McConkie's interpretation, in this case, more closely matches the scriptures.

[CMZ]

"Eternal lives" is also equated in the scriptures with knowing God and Jesus.

[CMZ]

Quote

 

Brigham Young, in 1862, spoke of eternal lives, stating that the opportunity to become heirs to all things, and to become a "King of kings and Lord of lords is promised to the faithful, and are but so many stages in that ceaseless progression of eternal lives. There will be no end to the increase of the faithful" (JD 10:5). He described such a situation as a pleasing one, creating happiness beyond mortal comprehension. In 1864 he elaborated: "In like manner, every faithful son of God, becomes, as it were, Adam to the race that springs from his loins, when they are embraced in the covenants and blessings of the Holy Priesthood in the progress of eternal lives. We have not yet received our kingdoms, neither will we, until we have finished our work on the earth, passed through the ordeals, are brought up by the power of the resurrection, and are crowned with glory and eternal lives" (JD 10:355).

"Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory" (TPJS, pp. 300-301).

from Encyclopedia of Mormonism (emphasis added)

 

 

[Benjamin Seeker]

12 minutes ago, CMZ said:

The quotes you keep referring to are inconsistent with a number of scriptures. McConkie's interpretation, in this case, more closely matches the scriptures.

As JS' revelations had a history of overturning previous scriptures, it would fit a consistent pattern of innovation if this theology, which I agree contradicts all kinds of canonical scripture, is at the heart of D&C 132:22-25. From my perspective, the most relevant scriptures to this period are those that JS revealed during the time or referred to in sermons or otherwise.

As far as knowing Jesus Christ, perhaps from JS' perspective there was no better way to know Jesus Christ than to experience the same or similar events to those that he had. An additional mortal probation would certainly be one way to do it.

[CMZ]

9 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

 

As far as knowing Jesus Christ, perhaps from JS' perspective there was no better way to know Jesus Christ than to experience the same or similar events to those that he had. An additional mortal probation would certainly be one way to do it.

We can postulate that and that is fine but it completely goes against Christ's own words from D&C 19 talking about how he prevented others from needing to go through the same thing.

[Benjamin Seeker]

26 minutes ago, CMZ said:

We can postulate that and that is fine but it completely goes against Christ's own words from D&C 19 talking about how he prevented others from needing to go through the same thing.

Section 19 in 1829 and Section 132 in 1842(?) are not only from two very different time periods in JS life, but there is also a huge theological evolution that occured between them, and some of the doctrinal expansions could be argued to pave the way for something like MMP, including Godhood and universal salvation excepting the sons of perdition. 

I do like the Brigham quotes you posted supporting the interpretation of eternal lives as eternal increase. We also need to remember that Brigham's teachings about godhood are in the context of Adam-God. When he says that the faithful will be like Adam, he means it quite literally. In other words, they will experience an additional mortality fulfilling the role of Adam, and I'm unclear if he thought this would repeat again and again as creation repeated. Either way a version of MMP is part and parcel of Adam-God and it's implicated in Brigham's use of the term eternal lives. For him the continuation of the seeds is accompanied by continual mortal or semi-mortal existences by the Gods.  Basically, the quote shows where Bruce R. got his interpretation from and strengthens my reading of 132 all at the same time.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Benjamin Seeker

[CMZ]

1 minute ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Section 19 in 1829 and Section 132 in 1842(?) are not only from two very different time periods in JS life, but there is also a huge theological evolution that occurs between them, and some of the doctrinal expansions could be argued to pave the way for something like MMP, including Godhood and universal salvation excepting the sons of perdition. 

I do like the Brigham quotes you posted supporting the interpretation of eternal lives as eternal increase. We also need to remember that Brigham's teachings about godhood are in the context of Adam-God. When he says that the faithful will be like Adam, he means it quite literally. In other words, they will experience an additional mortality fulfilling the role of Adam, and I'm unclear if he thought this would repeat again and again as creation repeated. Either way a version of MMP is part and parcel of Adam-God and it's implicated in Brigham's use of the term eternal lives. For him the continuation of the seed is accompanied by continual mortal existences by the Gods. Basically, the quote shows where Bruce R. got his interpretation from and strengthens my argument all at the same time.

However it still goes completely against a number of very distinct scriptures. Sure, there is an evolution in thought as more is learned, but it doesn't mean that everything that had been said earlier gets completely undone. By that reasoning then something else could come along and replace the multiple mortal probation theory.

[CMZ]

Further, the D&C 19 material is not merely Joseph Smith shooting the breeze based on how he felt about certain doctrinal topics in 1829. It is the words of Jesus Christ and it'd be very odd indeed, as stated earlier, if Christ had to at some point cop to pretty much telling a blatant lie.

[Benjamin Seeker]

2 minutes ago, CMZ said:

However it still goes completely against a number of very distinct scriptures. Sure, there is an evolution in thought as more is learned, but it doesn't mean that everything that had been said earlier gets completely undone. By that reasoning then something else could come along and replace the multiple mortal probation theory.

In religious history this kind of thing happens all the time. Who knows what would have happened if JS' spirit of innovation continued. Brigham tried to carry on the torch but he was largely hampered by a partially unaccepting membership. Excepting the expansion of vicarious work for the dead the church only got more doctrinally conservative after that.

[CMZ]

Okay, so that means the theory of multiple mortal probations would eventually get undone and nobody should believe it. And if everything could get undone then what is there to truly believe? JS was learning and growing in understanding and introducing ideas that seemed innovative, but innovation for innovation's sake was not the end goal.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Okay, so that means the theory of multiple mortal probations would eventually get undone and nobody should believe it. And if everything could get undone then what is there to truly believe?

So many doctrines taught in the 19th century are no longer part of current Church doctrine.
Who knows what parts of Church doctrine today will be gone in 50 years...

[CMZ]

17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So many doctrines taught in the 19th century are no longer part of current Church doctrine.
Who knows what parts of Church doctrine today will be gone in 50 years...

Maybe nothing. Everything's subject to change and eternal truth doesn't mean anything.

[CMZ]

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So many doctrines taught in the 19th century are no longer part of current Church doctrine.
Who knows what parts of Church doctrine today will be gone in 50 years...

Might be more correct to say that certain things aren't emphasized now.

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Maybe nothing. Everything's subject to change and eternal truth doesn't mean anything.

No, truth doesn't change.  If we have contradicting doctrines either one is true or the other is true or neither have been true.
Find truth is a requirement.  Since its inception members of the Church have believed and borne testimony of many different truths, even ones that contradict each other.
Who knows what false things have testimonies given in meetings every month?
 

11 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Might be more correct to say that certain things aren't emphasized now.

No, I don't think that's more correct.  Many doctrines have been disavowed.

[CMZ]

45 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No, truth doesn't change.  If we have contradicting doctrines either one is true or the other is true or neither have been true.

 

Yes, that is why we needn't immediately suppose that the theory of multiple mortal probations is true.

[CMZ]

46 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Since its inception members of the Church have believed and borne testimony of many different truths, even ones that contradict each other.
Who knows what false things have testimonies given in meetings every month?

 

Fortunately we aren't held to false testimonies from any time period.

[CMZ]

48 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No, I don't think that's more correct.  Many doctrines have been disavowed.

Or misunderstandings were addressed.

 

What I am getting at is that there are some in this thread who seem to be implying, "There were some people at some point in Church history who believed in MMP. So maybe we should believe in it too. Sure there were things said before it that totally contradict it, but that's the beauty of the restored Gospel: we're always learning, and sometimes we learn that something we thought was true was actually false." But by that very reasoning the MMP theory is itself subject to being proven false. And by that same reasoning ANY doctrine is subject to being proven false. And if we accept that reasoning then what should we ever believe? We shouldn't believe anything because it will all at some point get proven false.

[Benjamin Seeker]

12 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Or misunderstandings were addressed.

 

What I am getting at is that there are some in this thread who seem to be implying, "There were some people at some point in Church history who believed in MMP. So maybe we should believe in it too. Sure there were things said before it that totally contradict it, but that's the beauty of the restored Gospel: we're always learning, and sometimes we learn that something we thought was true was actually false." But by that very reasoning the MMP theory is itself subject to being proven false. And by that same reasoning ANY doctrine is subject to being proven false. And if we accept that reasoning then what should we ever believe? We shouldn't believe anything because it will all at some point get proven false.

CMZ, I hope you haven't felt that I've been suggesting that anyone believe in MMP. Towards the front of the thread I clarified that I don't believe in this theology nor am I promoting belief in it. My exchange with you was only intended to defend the possibiity that JS believed in it in some form or other.

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Benjamin Seeker

[CMZ]

12 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

CMZ, I hope you haven't felt that I've been suggesting that anyone believe in MMP. Towards the front of the thread I clarified that I don't believe in this theology nor am I promoting belief in it. My exchange with you was only intended to defend the possibility that JS believed in it in some form or other.

 

That's totally fine. I know there's all sorts of historical stuff out there and there's nothing wrong with discussing it. My comments have been about how to approach it when different historical things are brought up. Do they match scriptural teachings readily? Do they contradict scriptural teachings? Is it unclear if they do one or the other? Sometimes we readily accept something, and sometimes we have to put something on the metaphorical shelf as we await further light and knowledge.

In the days before I saw this thread I had been thinking about how JS seemed to often try to approach things with his own thinking at first and then would eventually seek revelation on the matter. It shouldn't surprise us if there are examples out there where we get just his thinking on the topic.

[clarkgoble]

Again one has to be clear what one means by MMP. As I said there are quite a few different ideas that unfortunately get conflated or used as evidence for a different position.

If by MMP we mean Heber C. Kimball's view in Utah (which was disputed by many other apostles with him including Wilford Woodruff) then there are several philosophical/theological problems.

First how can you reconcile a more Hindu style reincarnation with Abraham 3 if judgement is being sent back to the telestial kingdom. Importantly for those reincarnated is this after the reincarnation or before? If it's before, when was their resurrection? If after, how did they lose their resurrection? While I might have missed something in Kimball - I've not read everything he's written on it - it seems resurrection is just getting a new body. So telestial = new earth birth. Terrestrial = body Adam had in garden. Celestial = traditional LDS view. The problem is what spirit bodies are.

[RevTestament]

Doctrine and Covenants 76:34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

Doctrine and Covenants 59:23 But learn that he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come.

Doctrine and Covenants 63:48 He that sendeth up treasures unto the land of Zion shall receive an inheritance in this world, and his works shall follow him, and also a reward in the world to come.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the first elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall call them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not clean from the blood of this generation.

Lest any believe that the world to come is speaking of heaven or the celestial kingdom, etc, we see here that the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel awaits the wicked in this world to come.

Doctrine and Covenants 90:3 Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come;

The keys shall not be taken from who? From you in the world to come...how are you going to get in this world to come?

Doctrine and Covenants 76:112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

Those limited to messenger status cannot come to where the Most High is no matter how many worlds they end up in. The only way to get there is to repent and follow.

And finally, what I view as the nail "in the coffin": 

Doctrine and Covenants 130:19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

I think it speaks for itself.

You don't need any "doctrine" to believe - all you need are the scriptures.

[RevTestament]

For the non-LDS who only believe the Bible there are several more including:

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Great efforts are made to interpret these to mean other than what they say.