Eternal Families

[snowflake]

Could someone please explain to me exactly how the LDS concept of "eternal families"  is supposed to work. Does it work like families here on earth where you have kids and then they eventually marry off and leave you to create their own families? Or will you always be with your parents. Are there any empty nester "gods" whose families left to create their own universes? What about spirit babies too, how are those "organized/created"?

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Could someone please explain to me exactly how the LDS concept of "eternal families"  is supposed to work. Does it work like families here on earth where you have kids and then they eventually marry off and leave you to create their own families? Or will you always be with your parents. Are there any empty nester "gods" whose families left to create their own universes? What about spirit babies too, how are those "organized/created"?

We'd be lying if we said ALL the answers have been revealed.
But we do know some things:

Does it work like families here on earth
D&C 130: 2 And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.

you have kids and then they eventually marry off and leave you to create their own families
Your spirit children will come to an earth as we did.  We are still the children of our Heavenly Father.

Will you always be with your parents
Your parents will always be your parents.  Doesn't mean you will live in their basement forever.

Are there any empty nester "gods"
D&C 132: 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Eternal beings - no empty nester Gods because there is no end to their increase.

What about spirit babies too, how are those "organized/created"?
A topic of great discussion.  Brigham Young said they are created the old fashioned way.  Current Church teaching is that we don't know.  Many members don't believe in a literal spirit birth, just organization of eternal spirits into family units.

[Ahab]

Fathers and mothers who are able to reproduce themselves as their own children, children growing to a certain point at home before going off to learn on another planet as we are now, getting married themselves and occasionally going back home for a visit, with the cycle repeating forever and ever.

Pretty much the best kind of family life that is available here but involving other planets instead of only one planet.

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

- no empty nester Gods because there is no end to their increase.

I think we may empty our nests from time to time, as birds do when their babies annually leave their nests after learning to fly.

Their nests are occupied only until the babies have learned to fly.

[ksfisher]

29 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

We'd be lying if we said ALL the answers have been revealed.
But we do know some things:

Does it work like families here on earth
D&C 130: 2 And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.

you have kids and then they eventually marry off and leave you to create their own families
Your spirit children will come to an earth as we did.  We are still the children of our Heavenly Father.

Will you always be with your parents
Your parents will always be your parents.  Doesn't mean you will live in their basement forever.

Are there any empty nester "gods"
D&C 132: 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Eternal beings - no empty nester Gods because there is no end to their increase.

What about spirit babies too, how are those "organized/created"?
A topic of great discussion.  Brigham Young said they are created the old fashioned way.  Current Church teaching is that we don't know.  Many members don't believe in a literal spirit birth, just organization of eternal spirits into family units.

Good answers.  I think it is important to distinguish between what we know through canonized revelation and what is speculation.  I would definitely put Brigham Young's thoughts on "spirit babies" down as well intentioned speculation.  I do like it when the church says "we don't know."  Many times this is a much more preferable answer that speculative ones.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

Good answers.  I think it is important to distinguish between what we know through canonized revelation and what is speculation.  I would definitely put Brigham Young's thoughts on "spirit babies" down as well intentioned speculation.  I do like it when the church says "we don't know."  Many times this is a much more preferable answer that speculative ones.

I like it when the Church says "we don't know" when we really don't know.
I DON'T like it when the Church says we don't know because they don't want to give credence to the teachings of a former President.

For example, I don't like it that the teachings of the King Follett discourse are not considered Church doctrines and are placed into the "we don't know much about that" category.  It makes no sense that some  personal teachings of Joseph got canonized (D&C 130 and Articles of Faith for instance) and others (the KFD) did not when they came from the same source.

[snowflake]

32 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Fathers and mothers who are able to reproduce themselves as their own children, children growing to a certain point at home before going off to learn on another planet as we are now, getting married themselves and occasionally going back home for a visit, with the cycle repeating forever and ever.

Pretty much the best kind of family life that is available here but involving other planets instead of only one planet.

Now what must one do to be able to have an eternal family. And what about the "bad kids" that don't make the cut? Where do they go?

[JLHPROF]

Just now, snowflake said:

Now what must one do to be able to have an eternal family.

The same thing everyone must do to get any blessing.  Obey the corresponding law.

Quote

.And what about the "bad kids" that don't make the cut? Where do they go?

Too vague.  Everyone will end up exactly where they choose to be.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Now what must one do to be able to have an eternal family. And what about the "bad kids" that don't make the cut? Where do they go?

(1) Be sealed to a spouse by the power of God and (2) somewhere else other  than back to their parent's house.

[ksfisher]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I like it when the Church says "we don't know" when we really don't know.
I DON'T like it when the Church says we don't know because they don't want to give credence to the teachings of a former President.

For example, I don't like it that the teachings of the King Follett discourse are not considered Church doctrines and are placed into the "we don't know much about that" category.  It makes no sense that some  personal teachings of Joseph got canonized (D&C 130 and Articles of Faith for instance) and others (the KFD) did not when they came from the same source.

How sure are we that the transcription of the King Follett discourse is correct? 

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

How sure are we that the transcription of the King Follett discourse is correct? 

Irrelevant if we can discern the truth of those words by the power of God regardless of whoever wrote or spoke those words.

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

How sure are we that the transcription of the King Follett discourse is correct?

Even with all the various transcriptions, the doctrine that God was once a mortal man on an earth like we are is in all of them.
Owning that doctrine more fully would go a long way to stem the tide of incorrect "traditional" Christian teachings that are creeping among us.

[ksfisher]

13 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Irrelevant if we can discern the truth of those words by the power of God regardless of whoever wrote or spoke those words.

If.  History has shown that it is easy to misunderstand scripture, even in the church.  Nephi went so far as to say that the original meaning wasn't what he was even after.  But that he was interpreting scripture in a manner (likening) that would apply to his people. 

But this really has nothing to do with eternal families.  Sorry for the tangent.

Edited February 24, 2017 by ksfisher

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Could someone please explain to me exactly how the LDS concept of "eternal families"  is supposed to work. Does it work like families here on earth where you have kids and then they eventually marry off and leave you to create their own families? Or will you always be with your parents. Are there any empty nester "gods" whose families left to create their own universes? What about spirit babies too, how are those "organized/created"?

I actually believe there's a lot we don't know (or even that logically makes sense) regarding sealings and families.  

It got awful messy in the early days of the church, IMO.

I think it'll mainly be couples together (just like how it ends up here on earth).  What kids are going to want to be with their parents if they have a spouse they love for eternity?

I believe you will still associate with each other (the way I imagine it).  But so many questions remain really.  

If a child doesn't make it to the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom, will they not be allowed to see their parents and other family members who are there?  If they are able to associate with them, then what's the difference if you're sealed or not?

I've honestly come to believe that we will all be/associate with those we love (if they also choose to be with us).

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I actually believe there's a lot we don't know (or even that logically makes sense) regarding sealings and families.  

It got awful messy in the early days of the church, IMO.

I think it'll mainly be couples together (just like how it ends up here on earth).  What kids are going to want to be with their parents if they have a spouse they love for eternity?

I believe you will still associate with each other (the way I imagine it).  But so many questions remain really.  

If a child doesn't make it to the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom, will they not be allowed to see their parents and other family members who are there?  If they are able to associate with them, then what's the difference if you're sealed or not?

I've honestly come to believe that we will all be/associate with those we love (if they also choose to be with us).

My daughter..who I love, is 37 years old and she is moving out this coming Tuesday....I will be happy to wave and call and check on her always...but she is not coming back home...  In the eternities were I to be a part of a celestial family..I would say...now..you just move on down that golden street there and I will see you later..

Edited February 24, 2017 by Jeanne

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Could someone please explain to me exactly how the LDS concept of "eternal families"  is supposed to work. Does it work like families here on earth where you have kids and then they eventually marry off and leave you to create their own families? Or will you always be with your parents. Are there any empty nester "gods" whose families left to create their own universes? What about spirit babies too, how are those "organized/created"?

Seriously, the doctrine is best explained in this video:

Together Forever

It's the doctrinal equivalent of a Hallmark card.  Here's why.

LDS doctrine teaches that there are three main "kingdoms" of heaven (the Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial):

After you die, you eventually get resurrected and judged and sent to one of these kingdoms.  Now here's the question:

If a man and woman ("Bob" and "Sue") are married on Earth and they both die and get sent to the Telestial Kingdom, won't they get to spend all eternity together?

From everything I can tell, yes.  Our resurrected bodies will have our memories of our Earth life.  So when Bob sees Sue in the Terrestrial Kingdom, they can hang out together and play tennis and watch Netflix together for the rest of eternity.  And if their "kids" are there, then they can do it as a family.

But what if Bob ends up in the Telestial and Sue ends up in the Terrestrial?  Well, eternity is a long time compared to the ~100 years we might get on Earth, so presumably they would eventually meet other people and make new friends.  They would always remember the fun times they had on Earth with each other, but they would probably move on after a couple hundred centuries.  And that's assuming they even liked each other that much at the ends of their earthly lives.

So the key thing to being "Together Forever" as a family isn't necessarily being Mormon.  It's making sure the people you want to be with end up in the same kingdom as you.  So when missionaries tell a family that they aren't going to be together in the eternities, they really don't know.  It's entirely possible the members of that family will all end up together and get to play board games and eat popcorn (see: the video) for the rest of all eternity. 

The only factor left in all of this is really one thing:  can a man and woman have sex in the afterlife.  This seems to be the only distinction between being with a spouse in the Celestial Kingdom compared to the other kingdoms. 

For example, look at this lesson for college-age Mormons:

Marriage For All Eternity

These quotes explain it nicely:

Quote

“Mortal persons who overcome all things and gain an ultimate exaltation will live eternally in the family unit and have spirit children, thus becoming Eternal Fathers and Eternal Mothers. (D&C 132:19–32.) Indeed, the formal pronouncement of the Church, issued by the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve, states: ‘So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring.’ (Man: His Origin and Destiny, p. 129.)” (Mormon Doctrine, 517). - Bruce R. McConkie

Quote

“What do we mean by endless or eternal increase? We mean that through the righteousness and faithfulness of men and women who keep the commandments of God they will come forth with celestial bodies, fitted and prepared to enter into their great, high and eternal glory in the celestial kingdom of God; and unto them through their preparation, there will come spirit children. - Melvin J. Ballard

 

So an eternal marriage doesn't mean being "together forever", and it's not about the kids you may have in this life.  It means being together forever and having operational reproductive plumbing, and the eternal reproduction you'll have by making new spirit children.  That's something they don't mention in the video.

But to expand even on that point, the scriptures teach that our resurrected bodies are going to be perfect restorations of our human bodies in every way:

Quote

 23 [In the resurrection] the soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame. - Alma 40:23

It doesn't say that some people will have their sex organs sealed up or permanently deflated.  So if everything is perfectly restored, then it's conceivable that they won't have the power to create spirit babies, but still be able to enjoy the other benefits of the act. 

So the selling point might not even be "sex" itself.  It really comes down to "eternal increase" and being "kings and priests (and queens)" over your spirit children.

Edited February 24, 2017 by cinepro

[Ahab]

8 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I've honestly come to believe that we will all be/associate with those we love (if they also choose to be with us).

It is possible to honestly believe things that are wrong.

Right now I don't even know how to get to where our Father's house is, out there in heaven, or when he will be at home and not taking a trip to some other place.  

Do you suppose he will tell all of us how to track him down, exactly? 

[JulieM]

16 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

My daughter..who I love, is 37 years old and she is moving out this coming Tuesday....I will be happy to wave and call and check on her always...but she is not coming back home...  In the eternities were I to be a part of a celestial family..I would say...now..you just move on down that golden street there and I will see you later..

Yeah, I actually think a lot of it falls apart when you start to analyze it.  

It is all so appealing when you're sitting in church singing "Families can be together Forever" with all your little kids and your spouse.  All warm and fuzzy.  But that isn't how it'll be because they all grow up and have their own spouses and kids (who grow up and have their own kids and so on).

Can someone tell me what the difference will be in our relationships with those we're sealed to and those we aren't sealed to?

For example, I am sealed to my son.  He's going to be sealed to a wife (most likely).  So that's who he will want to be with.  But I'm not sealed to his wife.  So will I just be able to spend time with him and not with her?

That's just one example of how it really logically makes no sense to me.  

 

Edited February 24, 2017 by JulieM

[ksfisher]

7 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Seriously, the doctrine is best explained in this video:

Together Forever

It's the doctrinal equivalent of a Hallmark card.  Here's why.

LDS doctrine teaches that there are three main "kingdoms" of heaven (the Telestial, Terestrial and Celestial):

After you die, you eventually get resurrected and judged and sent to one of these kingdoms.  Now here's the question:

If a man and woman ("Bob" and "Sue") are married on Earth and they both die and get sent to the Telestial Kingdom, won't they get to spend all eternity together?

From everything I can tell, yes.  Our resurrected bodies will have our memories of our Earth life.  So when Bob sees Sue in the Terrestrail Kingdom, they can hang out together and play tennis and watch Netflix together for the rest of eternity.  And if their "kids" are there, then they can do it as a family.

But what if Bob ends up in the Telestial and Sue ends up in the Terrestrial?  Well, eternity is a long time compared to the ~100 years we might get on Earth, so presumably they would eventually meet other people and make new friends.  They would always remember the fun times they had on Earth with each other, but they would probably move on after a couple hundred centuries.  And that's assuming they even liked each other that much at the ends of their earthly lives.

 

 

 

I think the message of the gospel is that we can be more than just physically in the same place.  We can be one, even as the Father and Son are one.

"I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one."

D&C 35:2

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Could someone please explain to me exactly how the LDS concept of "eternal families"  is supposed to work. Does it work like families here on earth where you have kids and then they eventually marry off and leave you to create their own families? Or will you always be with your parents. Are there any empty nester "gods" whose families left to create their own universes? What about spirit babies too, how are those "organized/created"?

Nobody really knows:

"The precise nature of these relationships in the next life is not known, and many family relationships will be sorted out in the life to come. Latter-day Saints are encouraged to trust in our wise Heavenly Father, who loves His children and does all things for their growth and salvation."

The expectation is that those men who make it to the celestial kingdom will be gods and will also practice polygamy (with female goddesses); they will create worlds without end and spirit children.  Everybody else who does not make it will not be able to have sex and will be eternally damned.  In all reality, only like .0001% of families will be together forever in the highest kingdom.  

 

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng&old=true

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

The expectation is that those men who make it to the celestial kingdom will be gods and will also practice polygamy (with female goddesses); they will create worlds without end and spirit children.  Everybody else who does not make it will not be able to have sex and will be eternally damned.  In all reality, only like .0001% of families will be together forever in the highest kingdom. 

You say this like it's a bad thing. 
All blessings are contingent upon following law.

[JLHPROF]

30 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Yeah, I actually think a lot of it falls apart when you start to analyze it.

It is all so appealing when you're sitting in church singing "Families can be together Forever" with all your little kids and your spouse.  All warm and fuzzy.  But that isn't how it'll be because they all grow up and have their own spouses and kids (who grow up and have their own kids and so on).

Can someone tell me what the difference will be in our relationships with those we're sealed to and those we aren't sealed to?

For example, I am sealed to my son.  He's going to be sealed to a wife (most likely).  So that's who he will want to be with.  But I'm not sealed to his wife.  So will I just be able to spend time with him and not with her?

That's just one example of how it really logically makes no sense to me.

 

Why does this make no sense?
Your son marries his wife here and they have a home.  He is still your son here.  You get to spend time with him and his wife here.
The same sociality that exists here will exist there.
Unless someone chooses to reject it.

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Why does this make no sense?
Your son marries his wife here and they have a home.  He is still your son here.  You get to spend time with him and his wife here.
The same sociality that exists here will exist there.
Unless someone chooses to reject it.

Then why the need to be sealed to each other?  I'll be sealed to him, but not to her.    So what will be the difference in the Celestial Kingdom if I can still be with both of them?

[JLHPROF]

Just now, JulieM said:

Then why the need to be sealed to each other?  I'll be sealed to him, but not to her.    So what will be the difference in the Celestial Kingdom if I can still be with both of them?

That's like asking "why marry my spouse, I can still be with them".
People seem very concerned with who they will be with.
When you were dating your spouse you were together.  Why did you want to be married?

[JulieM]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That's like asking "why marry my spouse, I can still be with them".
People seem very concerned with who they will be with.
When you were dating your spouse you were together.  Why did you want to be married?

So, please tell me what the difference will be between associating with those you are sealed to and associating with those you are not sealed to in the CK? (Sincere question)

Edited February 24, 2017 by JulieM