More Background on the Y's Decission to let the ROTC leave

[Johnnie Cake]

BYU's President went eye to eye with the Pentagon and didn't blink...Score a victory for BYU Standards and a Loss to BYU ROTC members

 

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4968090-155/with-the-pentagon-on-the-telephone

 

I find it interesting that allowing the ROTC Commander to drink coffee in the privacy of his own home  "would fundamentally change who [BYU is] as a university."

Edited February 23, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Black Moclips]

16 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

BYU's President went eye to eye with the Pentagon and didn't blink...Score a victory for BYU Standards and a Loss to BYU ROTC members

 

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4968090-155/with-the-pentagon-on-the-telephone

 

I find it interesting that allowing the ROTC Commander to drink coffee in the privacy of his own home would  "would fundamentally change who [BYU is] as a university."

That coffee and tea has risen to this level of importance is pretty funny. There are so many other things that are worse for you that the WoW stays silent on. So it really can't be about health (or they would shut down the Creamery at BYU and record people's BMI index as part of admissions). God must just really hate coffee and tea for some weird, unknown reason. 

[Buckeye]

Good info. Thanks. I think President Worthen summed it up best when he "described the situation as the intersection of competing policies and that the proposal was 'as good a solution as we can come up with.'" (Quoting the minutes attached to the article in the OP). While I'll be sad to see the ROTCs leave BYU's campus (one of my best friends at the Y was in the AF ROTC), it appears that both sides tried in good faith to find as much accommodation as possible. Hopefully this example is followed in future disputes between church-run schools and outside groups. 

[Maestrophil]

1 hour ago, Black Moclips said:

That coffee and tea has risen to this level of importance is pretty funny. There are so many other things that are worse for you that the WoW stays silent on. So it really can't be about health (or they would shut down the Creamery at BYU and record people's BMI index as part of admissions). God must just really hate coffee and tea for some weird, unknown reason. 

I must be a bad reader, because I did not see where is specifically mentioned coffee as the breaking point.  Chastity was mentioned as well.

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

BYU's President went eye to eye with the Pentagon and didn't blink...Score a victory for BYU Standards and a Loss to BYU ROTC members

 

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4968090-155/with-the-pentagon-on-the-telephone

 

I find it interesting that allowing the ROTC Commander to drink coffee in the privacy of his own home  "would fundamentally change who [BYU is] as a university."

That quote is so disappointing.  What about all the honor code changes under Wilkinson, did that fundamentally change who BYU is?   My guess is that this decision was above Worthen's head and he had not choice in the matter. 

[Black Moclips]

21 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

I must be a bad reader, because I did not see where is specifically mentioned coffee as the breaking point.  Chastity was mentioned as well.

From what I understand (from some other articles) the Commander (who isn't LDS) didn't have an issue with signing the honor code, but asked about his drinking coffee in private in his own home. Apparently, that was still a deal breaker for BYU. Can't sign the honor code, you can't work at BYU - which  basically categorizes all items on the honor code with the same level of importance since they wouldn't bend. (Law of Chastity = Obeying the law = Grooming Standards = Coffee). I think that is funny, and pretty Pharisaical. 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Black Moclips said:

That coffee and tea has risen to this level of importance is pretty funny. There are so many other things that are worse for you that the WoW stays silent on. So it really can't be about health (or they would shut down the Creamery at BYU and record people's BMI index as part of admissions). God must just really hate coffee and tea for some weird, unknown reason. 

Yeh, but isn't Postum a hot drink?  When I was young, I wanted Postum banned.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 minutes ago, Black Moclips said:

From what I understand (from some other articles) the Commander (who isn't LDS) didn't have an issue with signing the honor code, but asked about his drinking coffee in private in his own home. Apparently, that was still a deal breaker for BYU. Can't sign the honor code, you can't work at BYU - which  basically categorizes all items on the honor code with the same level of importance since they wouldn't bend. (Law of Chastity = Obeying the law = Grooming Standards = Coffee). I think that is funny, and pretty Pharisaical. 

The WoW is a package deal, not that each item is of equal value, and BYU has always allowed justified exceptions.  The only question is What justifies an exception?  The Jewish rabbi who taught and studied at BYU was specifically allowed to keep his beard and to drink wine as part of Jewish ritual.

This may be a good thing in the long run:  Jack Mormons will now have greater opportunity to participate in an ROTC program.  Sounds like a win-win to me.

[Johnnie Cake]

35 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The WoW is a package deal, not that each item is of equal value, and BYU has always allowed justified exceptions.  The only question is What justifies an exception?  The Jewish rabbi who taught and studied at BYU was specifically allowed to keep his beard and to drink wine as part of Jewish ritual.

This may be a good thing in the long run:  Jack Mormons will now have greater opportunity to participate in an ROTC program.  Sounds like a win-win to me.

Lets be honest Robert...the WoW is a cafeteria deal...the church emphasizes some things in the WoW and down plays less desirable parts.  I mean who doesn't enjoy a big juicy steak in summer right?

[The Nehor]

23 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Lets be honest Robert...the WoW is a cafeteria deal...the church emphasizes some things in the WoW and down plays less desirable parts.  I mean who doesn't enjoy a big juicy steak in summer right?

I only eat steaks in summer when I am in a time of want.....wanting a steak.

[notHagoth7]

11 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

BYU's President went eye to eye with the Pentagon and didn't blink...Score a victory for BYU Standards and a Loss to BYU ROTC members

 

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4968090-155/with-the-pentagon-on-the-telephone

 

I find it interesting that allowing the ROTC Commander to drink coffee in the privacy of his own home  "would fundamentally change who [BYU is] as a university."

OK. So allowing that in the privacy of his home would fundamentally change it. If he chooses to believe that, I won't argue.

If true, would tolerance for nonmembers who aren't bound to the WoW  be a *bad* change?

(I ask, not pretending to have thought it through enough yet to have an answer.)

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Lets be honest Robert...the WoW is a cafeteria deal...the church emphasizes some things in the WoW and down plays less desirable parts.  I mean who doesn't enjoy a big juicy steak in summer right?

Correct. Plenty of hypocrisy to go around.  So should we all say "Forget about it," and all go out and become profligate drunks or wastrels?  Or just nibble around the edges of morality?  Observant Jews long ago found that only rigid separation from the bad habits of the Gentiles had survival value.  We might learn something from them.

As for me, I eat red meat no more than once a month now, and for many years did not touch it at all.  I probably need to repent.  

[Bernard Gui]

Still isn't clear whether the officer was aware of this before he accepted the job. That would make a difference. Who dropped that ball?

Why should a non-member professor not be held to the same standards as a non-member student? Or an officer to the same standards as his cadets? That would be a fundamental change. Too bad the Air Force couldn't find an officer who was willing to forgo his morning joe in order to preserve the long-standing honored BYU program, but a guy gotta have what a guy gotta have. Kudos to Pres. Worthen for his integrity. 

I hear they still wear their hats sideways in Clearfield.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Jane_Doe]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Still isn't clear whether the officer was aware of this before he accepted the job. That would make a difference. Who dropped that ball?

Why should a non-member professor not be held to the same standards as a non-member student? Or an officer to the same standards as his cadets? That would be a fundamental change. Too bad the Air Force couldn't find an officer who was willing to forgo his morning joe in order to preserve the long-standing honored BYU program, but a guy gotta have what a guy gotta have. Kudos to Pres. Worthen for his integrity. 

I hear they still wear their hats sideways in Clearfield.

I 100% agree.  This whole deal is the AirForce ROTC assigner mega dropping the ball.  After all, it's not like BYU's rules (whether you love them or hate them) suddenly appeared.  They've been there for a long time (notoriously even- again, love or hate).  

[Johnnie Cake]

26 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I 100% agree.  This whole deal is the AirForce ROTC assigner mega dropping the ball.  After all, it's not like BYU's rules (whether you love them or hate them) suddenly appeared.  They've been there for a long time (notoriously even- again, love or hate).  

Drinking coffee...is NORMAL.  In fact I'm drinking it at this very moment. It's what Americans and pretty much the rest of the world drink as their preferred beverage and their most popular caffeinated beverage...the only difference between the rest of the world and Mormon's is the temperature of their preferred caffeinated beverage.  I find it ironic that this ROTC commander could have drank gallon's of cold caffeinated beverages on campus without an issue...but because he's NORMAL and is HONEST and disclosed that he will continue to drink hot caffeine in the form of coffee at home...BYU had a problem... it's just stupid micro management...this entire matter just seem like a silly matter which ended up costing BYU

[Johnnie Cake]

10 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

OK. So allowing that in the privacy of his home would fundamentally change it. If he chooses to believe that, I won't argue.

If true, would tolerance for nonmembers who aren't bound to the WoW  be a *bad* change?

(I ask, not pretending to have thought it through enough yet to have an answer.)

This was the breaking point for the commander.  he was honest told the Y that he would live by all Honor code restrictions with the exception of drinking coffee at home...and there by would not sign a code that forbade him doing so.  But the Y would not budge...despite having done so in the past for non-LDS professors.  It's just stupid cut off your nose to spite your face stuff...

[Jeanne]

14 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Drinking coffee...is NORMAL.  In fact I'm drinking it at this very moment. It's what Americans and pretty much the rest of the world drink as their preferred beverage and their most popular caffeinated beverage...the only difference between the rest of the world and Mormon's is the temperature of their preferred caffeinated beverage.  I find it ironic that this ROTC commander could have drank gallon's of cold caffeinated beverages on campus without an issue...but because he's NORMAL and is HONEST and disclosed that he will continue to drink hot caffeine in the form of coffee at home...BYU had a problem... it's just stupid micro management...this entire matter just seem like a silly matter which ended up costing BYU

In my late teens, Dad got made at me for having a cherry coke...while he was drinking Dr. Pepper..go figure. So many other important things to learn and teach..this was silly.

[Jane_Doe]

18 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Drinking coffee...is NORMAL.  

So is lying, adultery, and cheating.  "Normal" =/= good.

And if the entire Air Force couldn't find a single leader who's can't go without coffee, then that's a maga-addiciton problem.  

18 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

It's what Americans and pretty much the rest of the world drink as their preferred beverage and their most popular caffeinated beverage...the only difference between the rest of the world and Mormon's is the temperature of their preferred caffeinated beverage.  I find it ironic that this ROTC commander could have drank gallon's of cold caffeinated beverages on campus without an issue...but because he's NORMAL and is HONEST and disclosed that he will continue to drink hot caffeine in the form of coffee at home

If you're ex-LDS you know very well that it's not caffeine that's the issue here.

18 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

BYU had a problem... it's just stupid micro management...this entire matter just seem like a silly matter which ended up costing BYU

BYU's rules are well established for many years (love them or hate them).  For some reason the Air Force ROTC assigner didn't think straight, which is their fault, no one else's.  ROTC's ball drop and loss.  

[rockpond]

22 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

BYU's President went eye to eye with the Pentagon and didn't blink...Score a victory for BYU Standards and a Loss to BYU ROTC members

 

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4968090-155/with-the-pentagon-on-the-telephone

 

I find it interesting that allowing the ROTC Commander to drink coffee in the privacy of his own home  "would fundamentally change who [BYU is] as a university."

I really struggle with this. I absolutely hate to see BYU lose the AF ROTC program.  And it seems so trivial.

On the other hand, I figure that they were concerned about the precedent that the University would be setting if they let this one slide... From that point on, anytime a non-Mormon faculty/staff member comes along asking to be exempted from some part of the honor code, they would have a tougher time saying no.

[Buckeye]

11 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

So is lying, adultery, and cheating.  "Normal" =/= good.

And if the entire Air Force couldn't find a single leader who's can't go without coffee, then that's a maga-addiciton problem.  

If you're ex-LDS you know very well that it's not caffeine that's the issue here.

BYU's rules are well established for many years (love them or hate them).  For some reason the Air Force ROTC assigner didn't think straight, which is their fault, no one else's.  ROTC's ball drop and loss.  

The point isn't whether the ROTC could find someone to abide by the HC, much less whether the HC was well-known. The point is that the ROTC has the right to decide what terms they will accept from institutions they work with. For whatever reason, they decided it best not to live with this requirement anymore. We could speculate forever as to "why" - but I find it best to accept President Worthen's take: the parties simply reached an impass. 

By the same token, BYU could choose to make an accommodation for ROTC faculty, but it chose not do. That's fine too. 

Fortunately, because of UVU's growth and closeness to BYU-P, both parties could find a resolution that works for everyone going forward. Yes, either party could have given in to the other. But that's not how adult relationships work. There is constant compromise and adjusting. Good to see that BYU and the ROTC acted like reasonable adults in this situation.

[Buckeye]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I really struggle with this. I absolutely hate to see BYU lose the AF ROTC program.  And it seems so trivial.

On the other hand, I figure that they were concerned about the precedent that the University would be setting if they let this one slide... From that point on, anytime a non-Mormon faculty/staff member comes along asking to be exempted from some part of the honor code, they would have a tougher time saying no.

I hate to see the unit go too, but the issue obviously is not trivial to either side or they wouldn't have divorced over it.

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

I hate to see the unit go too, but the issue obviously is not trivial to either side or they wouldn't have divorced over it.

Obviously the Air Force Colonel's integrity isn't trivial.  And BYU's desire to live up to the ideals of its Honor Code isn't trivial.  I think both sides can (should) agree on that.

What I was referring to as "seeming trivial" is what's at the center of it all:  a man drinking coffee in his home.  Hopefully, outsiders can see the non-trivial issues of integrity and honor but I fear many will look at this as being about coffee.

[Johnnie Cake]

18 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

So is lying, adultery, and cheating.  "Normal" =/= good.

You're equating drinking coffee with lying, adultery and cheating...oh brother

18 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

And if the entire Air Force couldn't find a single leader who's can't go without coffee, then that's a maga-addiciton problem.  

Again...coffee consumption is NORMAL,

18 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

If you're ex-LDS you know very well that it's not caffeine that's the issue here.

Have you ever studied how tea and coffee became forbidden?  Have you ever read up on the debate in the 19-teens and how it became banned in 1920? Are you aware that Coffee was one of the staples included on a list of things pioneers were instructed to bring west?  Have you ever studied why meat in summer is ignored while other items are emphasized?  It all came down to one man's preference...for hot coco over coffee...if he had liked coffee...Mormon's would be drinking it today. Heber Grant, the creator of how we moderns interpret  the WoW.  BTW he enjoyed meat in summer do that's why its ok.  So arbitrary and capricious

18 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

BYU's rules are well established for many years (love them or hate them).  For some reason the Air Force ROTC assigner didn't think straight, which is their fault, no one else's.  ROTC's ball drop and loss.  

I have no issue with a member of the church being held to the honor code...or even this commander being held to it while on campus...all he requested was the same consideration when in his own home and he had the integrity to draw that line in the sand and say that he would honor the code to that point abut not beyond.

[Jane_Doe]

2 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

You're equating drinking coffee with lying, adultery and cheating...oh brother

No, I'm rejecting your assumption that because something is normal that is means it is good.  

2 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Again...coffee consumption is NORMAL,

As is lying.  Doesn't mean it's good.

[Johnnie Cake]

17 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

No, I'm rejecting your assumption that because something is normal that is means it is good.  

As is lying.  Doesn't mean it's good.

But coffee is both good and normal... abstaining from coffee and equating coffee consumption as something that is bad or wrong or evil or sin and comparing drinking it with lying is just the kind of bizarre justifications that only Mormonism can produce.  Do you have any idea how crazy you are coming off as?

Listen I don't care whether you or any member abstains from drinking coffee...but don't try to make drinking it as evil, wrong, or a sin just to justify your abstinence to make yourself feel better...their is absolutely NOTHING wrong or evil in drinking coffee....just as you see no sin or evil intent in consuming meat in summer.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Johnnie Cake