God's Playground

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It's not what goes in the mouth that defilith, it's what comes out, according to scripture. 

I think the only thing the God of the Bible mentions as far as a drink, is not to be wine bibbers, or something like that. How do we know if it's truly a commandant, or at first just a suggestion in the D & C? Since Joseph and many leaders didn't follow it. Why wouldn't they, if it was a commandment?

I like this article: http://www.kencollins.com/discipleship/disc-43.htm

Some things going into the mouth can taste awful, make you say and do silly or mean things, or retch, or kill you.

Joseph is not the only prophet in this dispensation.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Stargazer]

On 2/16/2017 at 7:12 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

The APOD picture you are linking is a supernova, there is no life around it at least for few light years. APOD is the first page I start my day. Unfortunately all those beautiful Supernovas are nothing but the destruction of stars and the hundreds of Exoplanets are too far to discover any life. Our best hope SETI is equally silent about extraterrestrial signals due to the size of Universe. 

I'm not discounting the Scriptures as another resource. The problem for me to ascertain anything depends on evidence....It is a burden for sure to be born with a overwhelmingly skeptical brain.

Not that it's all that important what we call something, but that's not a supernova.  Or even a nova.  It's a planetary nebula, so-called because it is actually viewable as a disc as opposed to a point of light.  In this case it is the end stage of life of an extremely massive star, on its way to becoming a white dwarf after outgassing the bulk of its mass.  NGC 6302.

Of course you're right (probably) that there never as any life around it -- it was always too hot for life to develop on any planets there might have been orbiting it.  And it used up its primordial hydrogen extraordinarily quickly.

[Gray]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Perhaps. Perhaps his vision and purposes are not the same as those of an earthly father. I've had better results praying to God than praying to nature.

Perhaps they're the same thing

[Gray]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 I have learned valuable lessons from my suffering. Sometimes it has taken years and a great deal of soul-searching to realize the blessings that came from adversity. There is no other way.

Yes, but others experience suffering for which there is no positive outcome

[Bernard Gui]

21 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Not that it's all that important what we call something, but that's not a supernova.  Or even a nova.  It's a planetary nebula, so-called because it is actually viewable as a disc as opposed to a point of light.  In this case it is the end stage of life of an extremely massive star, on its way to becoming a white dwarf after outgassing the bulk of its mass.  NGC 6302.

Of course you're right (probably) that there never as any life around it -- it was always too hot for life to develop on any planets there might have been orbiting it.  And it used up its primordial hydrogen extraordinarily quickly.

And that's why you are the stargazer. Nebulae are some of the most beautiful and intricate celestial features. One of my favorites...

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170215.html

What a hoot if some day we can see these up close or even manipulate them. Surely the laws of physics...the ones we know and those we don't know.... are in God's toolbox.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 minutes ago, Gray said:

Yes, but others experience suffering for which there is no positive outcome

We can't know that. 

[Atheist Mormon]

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Not that it's all that important what we call something, but that's not a supernova.  Or even a nova.  It's a planetary nebula, so-called because it is actually viewable as a disc as opposed to a point of light.  In this case it is the end stage of life of an extremely massive star, on its way to becoming a white dwarf after outgassing the bulk of its mass.  NGC 6302.

Of course you're right (probably) that there never as any life around it -- it was always too hot for life to develop on any planets there might have been orbiting it.  And it used up its primordial hydrogen extraordinarily quickly.

I grew up with the visions of Asimov, Arthur C.Clarke.....I was so sure, we'd conquer the Solar System by 2000AD, especially when we landed the Moon. The future looked so bright. but growing up and your dreams crashing was not fun at all.....

[Teancum]

23 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Maybe we could find out what He thinks about it rather than impose our own criteria. After all, He notes the sparrow's fall.

Well it would be nice if God would come tell us all what he thinks rather than talk to a very low number of self proclaimed prophets through the eons of time. What you call what He thinks may not be really what He thinks at all.

[Teancum]

22 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

That principle was given for the least among the saints.
Apparently there are still many who are content to be "least" instead of receiving "most" of God's law.

More mumbo jumbo.....

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well it would be nice if God would come tell us all what he thinks rather than talk to a very low number of self proclaimed prophets through the eons of time. What you call what He thinks may not be really what He thinks at all.

Each one of us can have God come to us and tell us what He thinks. Even if only once in a while, that's sufficient for my needs. Especially if it's just to say, "you are my child, you are valuable, and everything is going to be alright."

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I grew up with the visions of Asimov, Arthur C.Clarke.....I was so sure, we'd conquer the Solar System by 2000AD, especially when we landed the Moon. The future looked so bright. but growing up and your dreams crashing was not fun at all.....

Well, their and others' visions are indeed wonderful, but they pale in comparison with the one that really grabbed me and on which I pin my hopes to play in God's playground....("My son, my son!")

Quote

And I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees; And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it.... 

Thus I, Abraham, talked with the Lord, face to face, as one man talketh with another; and he told me of the works which his hands had made; And he said unto me: My son, my son (and his hand was stretched out), behold I will show you all these. And he put his hand upon mine eyes, and I saw those things which his hands had made, which were many; and they multiplied before mine eyes, and I could not see the end thereof.

And he said unto me: This is Shinehah, which is the sun. And he said unto me: Kokob, which is star. And he said unto me: Olea, which is the moon. And he said unto me: Kokaubeam, which signifies stars, or all the great lights, which were in the firmament of heaven. And it was in the night time when the Lord spake these words unto me: I will multiply thee, and thy seed after thee, like unto these; and if thou canst count the number of sands, so shall be the number of thy seeds.

 

[Gray]

18 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

We can't know that. 

Certainly no positive outcome in this life. And to justify suffering by appealing to hypothetical scenarios in the afterlife is repressive.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

Certainly no positive outcome in this life. And to justify suffering by appealing to hypothetical scenarios in the afterlife is repressive.

We disagree, but pleasantly. Who is to say that there is no positive outcome in this life? Who knows all outcomes?

 I have personal assurances that the afterlife scenario is not hypothetical, but absolutely certain. That is sufficient for my needs.

[Gray]

31 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

We disagree, but pleasantly. Who is to say that there is no positive outcome in this life? Who knows all outcomes?

 I have personal assurances that the afterlife scenario is not hypothetical, but absolutely certain. That is sufficient for my needs.

Yes, we disagree pleasantly!

An example of no positive outcome in this life - an infant contracts a terrible and painful disease and dies a lingering death. She can't process any of these things. She just knows suffering in her brief lifetime. What's the positive outcome for her in this life? 

[Teancum]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Each one of us can have God come to us and tell us what He thinks. Even if only once in a while, that's sufficient for my needs. Especially if it's just to say, "you are my child, you are valuable, and everything is going to be alright."

So God has come to you in person, face to face and told you what you have in quotes above?

 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

Yes, we disagree pleasantly!

An example of no positive outcome in this life - an infant contracts a terrible and painful disease and dies a lingering death. She can't process any of these things. She just knows suffering in her brief lifetime. What's the positive outcome for her in this life? 

Her physical body may not be able to process, but we believe our spirits have been in existence for eons and learning all that time.  Our conscious awareness of that part of our being is currently lacking, but we can say that for much of what makes us up.  We are rarely fully aware of what we are learning from our experiences and instead tend to focus on certain aspects, at times missing what might be obvious to others.

For example, I know someone who "learned" his relative loved him from abuse.  It was not until he was asked if he would show love to his children in the same way and he was horrified by the thought that he learned that it wasn't love at all, but sickness.  Yet there was also an underlying awareness imo that what was happening was wrong and that was why he learned to distrust and not feel safe around others.  I also know of reverse situations where children were certain things were being done to them because someone hated them, only to learn later on as they got older these things were necessary for their health and growth.  Happens to youth and adults all the time, misunderstanding why they are going through things, only later figuring out that they learned something of value from it when they had grown in awareness.  But in some cases (not all), there also appears to be learning that there is actually love behind it all as the child is less resistant and fearful over time and not more, so there appears to me to be multiple levels of learning going on even in the here and now, most which will be consciously processed later, but still affecting behaviour and how we interpret the world almost immediately.

I don't know if this is the case for what appears to be unnecessary and at times horrific suffering.  I just believe it is possible based on extrapolating other learning experiences.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Calm

[Gray]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

Her physical body may not be able to process, but we believe our spirits have been in existence for eons and learning all that time.  Our conscious awareness of that part of our being is currently lacking, but we can say that for much of what makes us up.  We are rarely fully aware of what we are learning from our experiences and instead tend to focus on certain aspects, at times missing what might be obvious to others.

For example, I know someone who "learned" his relative loved him from abuse.  It was not until he was asked if he would show love to his children in the same way and he was horrified by the thought that he learned that it wasn't love at all, but sickness.  Yet there was also an underlying awareness imo that what was happening was wrong and that was why he learned to distrust and not feel safe around others.  I also know of reverse situations where children were certain things were being done to them because someone hated them, only to learn later on as they got older these things were necessary for their health and growth.  Happens to youth and adults all the time, misunderstanding why they are going through things, only later figuring out that they learned something of value from it when they had grown in awareness.  But in some cases (not all), there also appears to be learning that there is actually love behind it all as the child is less resistant and fearful over time and not more, so there appears to me to be multiple levels of learning going on even in the here and now, most which will be consciously processed later, but still affecting behaviour and how we interpret the world almost immediately.

I don't know if this is the case for what appears to be unnecessary and at times horrific suffering.  I just believe it is possible based on extrapolating other learning experiences.

If the spirit is something that disconnected from the mind, then any alleged benefit wouldn't be realized in this life anyway.

But let's put it this way - would you recommend this as a net beneficial next step in any infants' life? Should parents start subjecting their young children to debilitating pain in order to bring about positive outcomes? Will children be better off experiencing debilitating pain? Are doctors acting unethically when they treat pain? 

Weigh the two sides - debilitating pain and early death vs a healthy life. Is this really a difficult question? I know which course I would chose for my child. We can speculate any benefit we like from any monstrous suffering we can conceive of, but that doesn't make the alleged benefit worth than the actual suffering. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Gray

[Ahab]

On 2/14/2017 at 5:13 PM, Bernard Gui said:

I am so thankful our religion offers us the hope of participating with God in the creation of new worlds and populating them with His children.

I cannot imagine anything that could be more beautiful, satisfying, and exciting as this. If this is where He plays, I want to be a part of it,

no matter how small that part may be. What do you think?

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170208.html

Yep, I want to be part of that number when the saints come marching in!

Neat that my children will also be his children just because I am his child and as his child all of my children are also his children, however grand and great they may be.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

If the spirit is something that disconnected from the mind, then any alleged benefit wouldn't be realized in this life anyway.

But let's put it this way - would you recommend this as a net beneficial next step in any infants' life? Should parents start subjecting their young children to debilitating pain in order to bring about positive outcomes? Will children be better off experiencing debilitating pain? Are doctors acting unethically when they treat pain? 

Weigh the two sides - debilitating pain and early death vs a healthy life. Is this really a difficult question? I know which course I would chose for my child. We can speculate any benefit we like from any monstrous suffering we can conceive of, but that doesn't make the alleged benefit worth than the actual suffering. 

What is the mind?  Do you believe in a subconscious or something similar that may be aware without that awareness being fully realized by the person?

Please don't suggest I believe in absurd and vicious approaches to learning just because I think it may be possible (only may be, not claiming absolute) that we can learn from anything at any time in our lives In much broader terms then we are currently aware of.

[Gray]

59 minutes ago, Calm said:

What is the mind?  Do you believe in a subconscious or something similar that may be aware without that awareness being fully realized by the person?

Yes, certainly. And the subconscious is being harmed by suffering as well. There are levels of pain in this world that cause brokenness. That's why the problem of evil is unsolvable within the constraints of a benevolent God who has power to intervene. We can all point to trials in our lives that taught us important lessons, but it's trivially easy to find example of suffering in this earth that only destroys.

 

Quote

Please don't suggest I believe in absurd and vicious approaches to learning just because I think it may be possible (only may be, not claiming absolute) that we can learn from anything at any time in our lives In much broader terms then we are currently aware of.

I know you don't believe that. But since you don't believe that, can you really say there is a point to every kind of suffering? The scales are out of balance. Whatever lessons you might imagine are NOT worth the terrible human cost.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Gray

[Calm]

No, I can't and I haven't.

[Stargazer]

On 2/20/2017 at 1:31 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

I grew up with the visions of Asimov, Arthur C.Clarke.....I was so sure, we'd conquer the Solar System by 2000AD, especially when we landed the Moon. The future looked so bright. but growing up and your dreams crashing was not fun at all.....

So did I. Our dreams were crushed by people without a vision.

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, Teancum said:

So God has come to you in person, face to face and told you what you have in quotes above?

 

With respect, this is not the place to share with you my personal communications with God. Perhaps some other time.

They are sufficient for me. You may have yours, too, if you wish.

[Bernard Gui]

17 hours ago, Gray said:

Yes, we disagree pleasantly!

An example of no positive outcome in this life - an infant contracts a terrible and painful disease and dies a lingering death. She can't process any of these things. She just knows suffering in her brief lifetime. What's the positive outcome for her in this life? 

I would rather hear her judgment of the experience than the one you are projecting on her.

For example, I have a dear friend with whom I was blessed in a miraculous way to share the gospel when he was a teenager. He struggled with life as a gay Mormon (served a mission) who bitterly left the Church, fully embraced the lifestyle, then contracted AIDS and an awful host of associated social and physical problems caused by his suppressed immune system. For decades his life has been miserable and painful. After serious repentance and returning to full activity in the Church, here is how he chooses to live now. You decide if anything positive has come from his suffering.

Quote

OK, really tired......it started last night at 12:30 a.m. with a call saying that I needed to meet with a member this morning at 10:00 because she was in big trouble. Then a call at 1:30am that someone needed a ride from the hospital but then he called again about 2:30am and they wouldn't let him go till he passed the sobriety blood test, and then the 12:30 call person, she calling at 8:00am saying that we have to meet right now, so I pick up the missionaries and we pick up this person and take her to the Church to sit and talk and somewhere in the conversation of paranoid delusions I got her to agree to go to the hospital and there we go and they keep her most of the day saying she is having a psychotic meltdown, and then I needed to take the missionaries home and on the way pick up the now sober guy with no coat or shoes, take the missionaries home, take him home, go back to the hospital after stopping to pick up prescriptions, sit till she is discharged, call the missionaries and they come and we take her to a friend's house to calm down and we are supposed to pick her up after conference and take her home and go in and sit down and read the Book of Mormon with her so that we know she is safe from her family who she believes drugged her, and we head off to pick up the missionaries truck that is at the hospital, a stop at the pet store cause I am out of Buddy food, and on to my house to pick up some cable TV supplies and then to Xxx's and try to get a cable into her first floor bedroom, but realize that the cable I had didn't have ends on it so off to Walmart and back to Xxx's and told the missionaries to go ahead and help the woman who needed something hauled out of her storage unit, I stay at Xxx's trying to get the TV hooked up but run out of time and cannot finish the job, cause then it was time to go to the Adult Session of Stake Conference at 5:00 only to discover that we cannot watch it because the internet feed is too slow to process it and we have garbled words here and there with a screen stuck on one frame, the woman at her friend's house calming down ends up calling while I'm on another call and she left this guy's house, walked in the snow and cold to a bar and called again from there but I didn't recognize the number and kept talking on the call I was on, and thankfully finally some guy at the bar gave her a ride home, the missionaries called her and she was home and things were OK there, so we head back to my house to get some extension cords for Xxx's TV but driving by we don't see any lights on and that means she is sleeping so we head to the Church because we got about 3" of snow and the sidewalks needed to be shoveled, headed home, the missionaries got in their truck and we parted ways, I came in and filled myself with junk food and now I am desperately hoping I will be able to fall asleep sometime soon!

So that is how my night and day went - what did you do to keep busy today! =:-) Have fun!

Many days he is unable to get out of bed because of pain, lack of sleep, and weakness. This is what he has done for at least the past 15 years. Do you see anything lovely or of good report or praiseworthy here? He testifies that he surely knows in the next life he will be made completely whole. 

Is there anyone reading this who doubts his love for God and his fellow man? Can anyone match this single day of service....typical of him when he has the strength to get out of the house? If not, let's not hear any complaints.

I think he might get to play on the big Big Toy in God's playground.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[notHagoth7]

On 02/15/2017 at 1:41 PM, Gray said:

You can't really love your children unless you want them to be gods? 

Well, I want children to at least be swift to discern between good and evil.

As Joseph explained, he taught. true principles and let them govern themselves.

Once they're there, God in Genesis affirms  they "have become as one of us."

That's part of my wish. Fair 'nuf?