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The Lord and this binding business


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I know that people will be upset with me..but all this binding with the Lord and priesthood blessings holds true for many here on Patriarchal Blessings.  But so many diligent Mormons they don't always see the fruits of those blessings even after following the path described by the church  Mine was a complete copy of my cousin..does anyone have any answers or experiences that pertain to binding by a Patriarch?. 

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Just now, Jeanne said:

I know that people will be upset with me..but all this binding with the Lord and priesthood blessings holds true for many here on Patriarchal Blessings.  But so many diligent Mormons they don't always see the fruits of those blessings even after following the path described by the church  Mine was a complete copy of my cousin..does anyone have any answers or experiences that pertain to binding by a Patriarch?. 

I wonder that too

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1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

1) If the Lord will give the blessing he has in store, wouldn't it be best to say as little as possible? For example, follow the procedure and pronounce the authority by which the blessing is given and then say something like "All blessings that the Lord has in store shall be realized according to your faith. Amen." Why should priesthood holders say anything more than this?

These are really good questions, HappyJack. They are important ones, too, because they lie at the heart of concerns people have or get. 

With regards to #1, no, it wouldn't be best to say as little as possible and give a boilerplate formulaic standard "blessing #4" or something like that, in my view. To me, Elder Oaks's teaching takes away the fear of "getting it wrong," but it doesn't mean that we should therefore not give blessings at all, because they get the blessing God has for them regardless. The value in giving and receiving blessings in this life is that it allows us to experience breakthroughs when the veil is parted, and both the giver and recipient know that it was powerful revelation. That it doesn't always happen, or that we sometimes get it completely wrong, doesn't mean that we should stop giving or requesting them.

Why should we say more than that? Because sometimes God really does speak through us in the blessings, and both people know it without being crippled with doubt  or uncertainty about it. These breakthrough moments are powerful. 

2) What good is prophesying if neither the giver or receiver can have confidence in the validity of the prophesy?

I believe that they can have confidence in the validity of the prophecy. I think we're all on a spectrum. On one far end are those who think that blessings have no value because there may be an element of uncertainty. On the other far end are those who believe that they are always 100% effective. In the middle are those who believe that they sometimes are clear and prophetic, and other times not. 

I think we're too afraid of prophesying out of fear that we might get it wrong, and I think we live beneath our privileges in that regard. This timidity to prophesy runs all the way up the chain of command in the Church. I believe that those who dare to trust in our glorious heritage with faith in the restoration have commensurate blessings. 

Another factor is the dispensing of spiritual gifts. While I have experienced "blessing failures," I have had many more "blessing successes." I have certain specific promises in my patriarchal blessing and other things, and they have come to pass. At one time, I asked my wife if we should temper our children's expectations so that they don't later have a faith crisis, and she said, "Why in the world would we do that?" They have an absolute rock-solid belief in blessings, and they have experienced miracles and have (from experience) no reason to doubt them. The gift of healing, and the gift to be healed are two of the gifts of the spirits listed in D&C 46, and I believe that they are bona fide gifts of the spirit. Many people do not have the gift of healing or the gift to be healed; others do have those, but not others.  

Honest question here- what is the value of a priesthood blessing if 1- the Lord will bless as He sees fit regardless of what is said, 2- the giver and the receiver can really have no real confidence that what is being said will come to pass or that the blessing will be honored as stated. This system of blessing sounds like the administration of a placebo.

The value lies in the struggle to discern and pronounce revelation. And, when testified by the Spirit, it is a very powerful experience. 

Remember, one powerful experience I had (the whole experience, plus aftermath, not just the blessing and promise itself) was when I told a woman she would live and she died a few days later. But, the blessing itself was a blessing for the family and for the attending nurse. 

JLHPROF states that the worthy declaration of a priesthood holder will be honored by God if the laws associated with the blessing are followed. While there are still a lot of "outs" if the blessing doesn't work, at least this conception of a blessing being honored holds value. The other case seems to have no value whatsoever.

I don't disagree with JLHPROF. I believe that worthy priesthood holders speak authoritative blessings that God honors. Motives and ability to discern revelation are major factors, too, though. My father-in-law, in blessing his dying wife (stage 4 cancer) had the attitude of Ed Harris's character in "The Abyss" when he's trying to resuscitate his drowned wife, and kept telling her in blessings that she would live for decades more. Nobody else felt that when he blessed her; he was in denial, and frantic (similar to Sam in the movie "Charly"). God doesn't take over the controls when we are driven, and that accounts for many blessing "misfires" --- and I don't see a problem with God not being bound by every utterance given by scared, desperate priesthood holders. 

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40 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I know that people will be upset with me..but all this binding with the Lord and priesthood blessings holds true for many here on Patriarchal Blessings.  But so many diligent Mormons they don't always see the fruits of those blessings even after following the path described by the church  Mine was a complete copy of my cousin..does anyone have any answers or experiences that pertain to binding by a Patriarch?. 

Each patriarch is different. Some patriarchs' blessings are awfully similar; others are very unique to the person. 

It's not a perfect system, but it beats having them faxed down from heaven because the system has the potential of glorious breakthroughs. If they were simply faxed from heaven, they would be perfect, but we wouldn't get the experience of wrestling with doubt, hope, discernment, and confirmation. I think there's great value in this system, even though we "see through a glass darkly."

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1 hour ago, rongo said:

Each patriarch is different. Some patriarchs' blessings are awfully similar; others are very unique to the person. 

It's not a perfect system, but it beats having them faxed down from heaven because the system has the potential of glorious breakthroughs. If they were simply faxed from heaven, they would be perfect, but we wouldn't get the experience of wrestling with doubt, hope, discernment, and confirmation. I think there's great value in this system, even though we "see through a glass darkly."

Coming from the Lord, it should be a perfect system.

Quote

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Jeanne said:
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Each patriarch is different. Some patriarchs' blessings are awfully similar; others are very unique to the person.

It's not a perfect system, but it beats having them faxed down from heaven because the system has the potential of glorious breakthroughs. If they were simply faxed from heaven, they would be perfect, but we wouldn't get the experience of wrestling with doubt, hope, discernment, and confirmation. I think there's great value in this system, even though we "see through a glass darkly."

Coming from the Lord, it should be a perfect system.

Why?
Unless God is telling the Patriarchs verbally or appearing to deliver a revelation, what they are going on are feelings and inspiration.

The revelatory spectrum has great range, according to Joseph Smith it takes great effort and practice to get and recognize revelation, and inspiration is much more subject to the feelings of the receiver.
God expects us to work on faith, to ponder, and pray.  Only when God has a specific purpose to accomplish does perfectly clear revelation manifest.

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38 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Why?
Unless God is telling the Patriarchs verbally or appearing to deliver a revelation, what they are going on are feelings and inspiration.

The revelatory spectrum has great range, according to Joseph Smith it takes great effort and practice to get and recognize revelation, and inspiration is much more subject to the feelings of the receiver.
God expects us to work on faith, to ponder, and pray.  Only when God has a specific purpose to accomplish does perfectly clear revelation manifest.

I understand what you are saying..but there are good LDS people living their lives with the expectations and promises made in a patriarchal blessing..this would be the time for the Lord to bind those promises whether the patriarch is in a learning process or not.  As an example, I have a wonderful cousin who was promised she would raise kids in mortality and would be a mother in zion...she has lived a wonderful and faithful life.  She is at the age now where this is no longer possible.  She is saddened of course..she held on to that and a promise of marriage.  What would you say to her?

Edited by Jeanne
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It seems you need a revelation to verify a revelation, what parts of a revelation are true and what parts aren't. I don't get how God can see the end from the beginning but is fuzzy on the middle part, why can't he say if you do X then Y will happen but unfulfilled blessings throw a theological monkeywrench into that system, how else can it be explained? Why would God tell emeliza's husband about a future calling then he passed away, what value is that knowledge? it causes you to wonder about the blessings you have and if they are of any value because how are supposed to know they will happen now?

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9 hours ago, Duncan said:

It seems you need a revelation to verify a revelation, what parts of a revelation are true and what parts aren't. I don't get how God can see the end from the beginning but is fuzzy on the middle part, why can't he say if you do X then Y will happen but unfulfilled blessings throw a theological monkeywrench into that system, how else can it be explained? Why would God tell emeliza's husband about a future calling then he passed away, what value is that knowledge? it causes you to wonder about the blessings you have and if they are of any value because how are supposed to know they will happen now?

I think such a situation is covered in D&C 124:49-50: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment [revelation, promised blessing] to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings. And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.” Sometimes those who hinder are other people, but sometimes they are those things like chance, chaos, illness, death, our various environments (natural, social, familial, political, economic, etc.), etc. that we cannot control in the fallen world.

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10 hours ago, Duncan said:

It seems you need a revelation to verify a revelation, what parts of a revelation are true and what parts aren't. I don't get how God can see the end from the beginning but is fuzzy on the middle part, why can't he say if you do X then Y will happen but unfulfilled blessings throw a theological monkeywrench into that system, how else can it be explained? Why would God tell emeliza's husband about a future calling then he passed away, what value is that knowledge? it causes you to wonder about the blessings you have and if they are of any value because how are supposed to know they will happen now?

Often I hear that it is something for the millennium or for the eternities.  

I am not sure it matters though.  I think you just have to be faithful and keep trying and try and prepare for whatever you can.  I think you don't focus on these promises or at least don't bank on them.  We banked way too much on my husband outliving me or at least living to an old age due to the PB. So much so that we were prepared if I might pass on, but not at all for if he did.  

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On 2/6/2017 at 6:18 PM, Jeanne said:

I understand what you are saying..but there are good LDS people living their lives with the expectations and promises made in a patriarchal blessing..this would be the time for the Lord to bind those promises whether the patriarch is in a learning process or not.  As an example, I have a wonderful cousin who was promised she would raise kids in mortality and would be a mother in zion...she has lived a wonderful and faithful life.  She is at the age now where this is no longer possible.  She is saddened of course..she held on to that and a promise of marriage.  What would you say to her?

What is sad is some singles out there don't marry because they haven't found the right LDS person. And skip marriage to a non LDS. Therefore remain single. Not saying marriage is for everyone though.

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

What is sad is some singles out there don't marry because they haven't found the right LDS person. And skip marriage to a non LDS. Therefore remain single. Not saying marriage is for everyone though.

I think if you are strong in your religion, it is much harder to be married to someone outside of the religion unless they are ambivalent about religion.  If you are both strong and active in different faiths, that will be super time consuming and could cause issues when raising children. 

I know it can work, but it can be hard. 

It is similar to combining families where both spouse has children that live at home with them, it can work, but it is hard. 

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9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

What is sad is some singles out there don't marry because they haven't found the right LDS person. And skip marriage to a non LDS. Therefore remain single. Not saying marriage is for everyone though.

that's me! Peppermint Patty said she had a niece or something:vava:

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On 2/3/2017 at 4:09 PM, JAHS said:

How do we know that the person giving the blessing really had the spirit with him when he said that or if he just thought it was a nice thing to say? Whenever those kinds of pronouncements are given in blessings (eg patriarchal blessings) I think of them more as future possibilities rather than absolutes. 

And this is Duncan...."that's what I wonder too, how is the recipient supposed to know that this? what do you mean possibilties and absolutes? "

Ahteist Mormon: Hate to ask but how long living in this uncertainty will go on? There's no power behind those blessings & promises. You can spend a lifetime to hope & expect those empty promises to fulfill... The disappointing part  in all is you are empowering everybody else but yourselves.

Sometime ago I got tired of waiting uncertain blessings & hopes, decided there was no one else to help me but myself ( I had real help though, my wife). I invested in myself rather than empowering others...... You give this blessings to someone else too, how you feel about it? It is all a raincheck, no value attached..I don't know if you had a chance to cash a check of 50K or even 200K....It feels totally different (maybe you experienced it)...... It is reality, no promises....Way back in 70's I got my patriarchal blessing and many others afterwards...It was only fantasy.....

Sorry I'm writing this while I'm watching "Dances with Wolves" and John Wayne's "Rio Grande".......

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35 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

And this is Duncan...."that's what I wonder too, how is the recipient supposed to know that this? what do you mean possibilties and absolutes? "

Ahteist Mormon: Hate to ask but how long living in this uncertainty will go on? There's no power behind those blessings & promises. You can spend a lifetime to hope & expect those empty promises to fulfill... The disappointing part  in all is you are empowering everybody else but yourselves.

Sometime ago I got tired of waiting uncertain blessings & hopes, decided there was no one else to help me but myself ( I had real help though, my wife). I invested in myself rather than empowering others...... You give this blessings to someone else too, how you feel about it? It is all a raincheck, no value attached..I don't know if you had a chance to cash a check of 50K or even 200K....It feels totally different (maybe you experienced it)...... It is reality, no promises....Way back in 70's I got my patriarchal blessing and many others afterwards...It was only fantasy.....

Sorry I'm writing this while I'm watching "Dances with Wolves" and John Wayne's "Rio Grande".......

Well you got it partly right when you say there is no one to help me but myself. That's what the faith without works scripture is all about. We have faith that blessings and good things will happen to us but we don't just sit around and expect it all to come to us without us doing something about it ourselves. And when good things do happen we feel good about the part we played in it and give thanks to God for the part He played. Sorry you haven't had any good experience with it, but I have had too many good things happen to me because of blessings that I have received to deny that it is real. 

Sorry I have been reading my journal where I wrote down all these things. 

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On 2/3/2017 at 4:27 PM, Duncan said:

I was talking to my dentist, he's LDS as well, the other day over drinks (not alcoholic) and we were talking about giving blessings to people. He told me that he knows a guy in our stake and I think I know who it is but let's move on. Anyways this fella was told in a blessing that he'd become a Mission President.

Some promises will be fulfilled in this life, others will be in the next life.  We know that missionary work is organized and performed in the spirit world, which would indicate some individuals will be called to organized and administer this program in the spirit world.

Edited by cdowis
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20 hours ago, JAHS said:

Well you got it partly right when you say there is no one to help me but myself. That's what the faith without works scripture is all about. We have faith that blessings and good things will happen to us but we don't just sit around and expect it all to come to us without us doing something about it ourselves. And when good things do happen we feel good about the part we played in it and give thanks to God for the part He played. Sorry you haven't had any good experience with it, but I have had too many good things happen to me because of blessings that I have received to deny that it is real. 

Sorry I have been reading my journal where I wrote down all these things. 

Thanks for this kind & civilized answer. But my experience has been great so far, I am grateful it didn't take me a lifetime to pursue something that I could never find or achieve.

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On 2/3/2017 at 2:27 PM, Duncan said:

I was talking to my dentist, he's LDS as well, the other day over drinks (not alcoholic) and we were talking about giving blessings to people. He told me that he knows a guy in our stake and I think I know who it is but let's move on. Anyways this fella was told in a blessing that he'd become a Mission President. I obviously can't say one way or the other if he will but we were talking about what if the person giving the blessing said that, for whatever reason, but God has no intention of ever calling that guy to be a Mission President? is God now bound to give him that calling? People can say whatever they want but is God bound to honour those things? how would the person getting the blessing supposed to know God won't give you whatever it is, despite what is said?

Priesthood blessings are repeat with unfulfilled promises...no reason to believe this one will be fulfilled 

Edited by Johnnie Cake
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2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:
Quote

this fella was told in a blessing that he'd become a Mission President.

Priesthood blessings are repeat with unfulfilled promises...no reason to believe this one will be fulfilled 

That is because this blessing was likely outside the purview of the one giving it.

I could lay my hands upon my kid's head every day for the rest of his life and bless him that he would be an Apostle and it would almost certainly never happen.
Why?  Because I have no authority to make such a promise.
However, I could lay my hands upon my kid's head and bless him that he would have the opportunity to be married for eternity.  And as long as he lives up to the requirements and doesn't reject the blessing I KNOW the Lord will fulfill that blessing at some point.

Stewardship matters.

Edited by JLHPROF
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3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

That is because this blessing was likely outside the purview of the one giving it.

I could lay my hands upon my kid's head every day for the rest of his life and bless him that he would be an Apostle and it would almost certainly never happen.
Why?  Because I have no authority to make such a promise.
However, I could lay my hands upon my kid's head and bless him that he would have the opportunity to be married for eternity.  And as long as he lives up to the requirements and doesn't reject the blessing I KNOW the Lord will fulfill that blessing at some point.

Stewardship matters.

do Patriarchs have that purview? I've heard of some Apostles being told in their blessings that they would serve, i'm thinkng Alonzo Hinckley and George Albert Smith, maybe others who knows

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10 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

That is because this blessing was likely outside the purview of the one giving it.

I could lay my hands upon my kid's head every day for the rest of his life and bless him that he would be an Apostle and it would almost certainly never happen.
Why?  Because I have no authority to make such a promise.
However, I could lay my hands upon my kid's head and bless him that he would have the opportunity to be married for eternity.  And as long as he lives up to the requirements and doesn't reject the blessing I KNOW the Lord will fulfill that blessing at some point.

Stewardship matters.

So is it fair to summarize this thread as follows...

The Lord is bound to honor promises given in priesthood blessings as long as ALL of the following conditions are met:

  1. The promise is not outside of the stewardship of the priesthood holder (could be a whole new thread).
  2. The priesthood holder is worthy.
  3. The priesthood holder is speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit.
  4. The individual being blessed has sufficient faith for what was promised.
  5. The individual being blessed lives up the requirements of the blessing.*
  6. The individual being blessed obeys the law upon which the blessing is predicated.*
  7. The blessing is aligned with the will of God.

* Such specific requirements and laws may or may not be known to the blessing recipient.

Did I miss anything?

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Is there anything..any blessing..that is unconditional given by the Lord through the priesthood?  Perhaps a healing to one who is non-repentant yet an answered prayer from one who is?  How do we make sense of all of this?  Words spoken are taken to heart.

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1 hour ago, rockpond said:

So is it fair to summarize this thread as follows...

The Lord is bound to honor promises given in priesthood blessings as long as ALL of the following conditions are met:

  1. The promise is not outside of the stewardship of the priesthood holder (could be a whole new thread).
  2. The priesthood holder is worthy.
  3. The priesthood holder is speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit.
  4. The individual being blessed has sufficient faith for what was promised.
  5. The individual being blessed lives up the requirements of the blessing.*
  6. The individual being blessed obeys the law upon which the blessing is predicated.*
  7. The blessing is aligned with the will of God.

* Such specific requirements and laws may or may not be known to the blessing recipient.

Did I miss anything?


# 3 is the one that covers all the rest of these - the person giving the blessing actually has the spirit (and I don't mean the warm fuzzies).
If that one is met all the others will be covered because a blessing given by the Holy Spirit cannot be given out of turn.

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16 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:


# 3 is the one that covers all the rest of these - the person giving the blessing actually has the spirit (and I don't mean the warm fuzzies).
If that one is met all the others will be covered because a blessing given by the Holy Spirit cannot be given out of turn.

So when President Kimball gave a blessing without the Spirit?  (see my Michael Quinn comment on page 1)

Interesting.

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