Proposed sale of Manti street

[ERayR]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

Is there something about the first amendment you don't understand?

 However, I support that if they really want to do it they can move their activities around the corner and preach as much as they choose during the event or any other time that strikes their fancy.

What is it about; This is not a first amendment issue, that you don't understand?  No one is putting any prohibitions on anyone's ability to practice their religion nor is the sale of the surplus property to a church an act of supporting that church.  No where is it required that a place must be provided and maintained for these screetchers.  The only thing I see wrong here is that you are sitting in the stove and complaining that somebody is burning your backside. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by ERayR

[thesometimesaint]

The effort is to limit the freedom of speech based on religion. The cure for bad speech isn't limiting it, but encouraging good speech.

Are you so afraid of what some jerk says that you can't come up with a better argument than limiting it?

Edited March 17, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

 

The effort is to limit the freedom of speech based on religion. The cure for bad speech isn't limiting it, but encouraging good speech.

Are you so afraid of what some jerk says that you can't come up with a better argument than limiting it?

 

OK so how do you suggest we encourage good speech from those street preachers who are screaming out with a megaphone at people who are trying to enjoy a spiritual moment at the pageant?
You did see the video I posted earlier right? 

 

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, JAHS said:

OK so how do you suggest we encourage good speech from those street preachers who are screaming out with a megaphone at people who are trying to enjoy a spiritual moment at the pageant?
You did see the video I posted earlier right? 

 

True..

[Calm]

On 2017-03-17 at 11:35 AM, thesometimesaint said:

The effort is to limit the freedom of speech based on religion. 

The effort is to limit noise pollution and inappropriate intrusion into the pageant area (the street appears to border the sitting area from videos I just looked at where street preachers moved into the sitting area right before it started as well as throughout the day).  People, including children, being screamed at about their underwear and being screamed at that they are liars.  Screamed at they are children of the devil and going to hell.  And they don't limit themselves to walking up and down the street, screaming, but move into the crowd, trepassing.  And they brag about making a "security breach".  There is no intent to obey the law since they continue to trespass and film themselves doing so.

https://wn.com/Manti_Pageant_Security_Breach_Stake_President_Scott_Hintze_2016

Makes more sense to have them move away from picnickers and those walking peacefully to the pageant or temple or the bathrooms (yes, they apparently are happy to admit they hang out around the bathrooms to snag people to talk to) than to have to send police out constantly to ensure they do not disturb the peace...

Or do you want you precious tax dollars that have nothing to do with Manti being wasted on constantly having to police a 'shudder in horror' religious event?

Edited March 18, 2017 by Calm

[Sleeper Cell]

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 10:54 AM, thesometimesaint said:

 

Is there something about the first amendment you don't understand?

Yes.  The part where it forbids a city from selling city owned property to the highest bidder. 

[ERayR]

21 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

The effort is to limit the freedom of speech based on religion. The cure for bad speech isn't limiting it, but encouraging good speech.

Are you so afraid of what some jerk says that you can't come up with a better argument than limiting it?

Where is the part that says they have to be provided a publicly maintained place right in the middle of a private performance area?  Isn't that government support of religion. 

[JAHS]

7 hours ago, ERayR said:

Are you so afraid of what some jerk says that you can't come up with a better argument than limiting it?

They can say anything and everything they want; it's just very rude and disrupting to do it so loudly while others are trying to pay attention to the show.

[strappinglad]

If I were a slightly less forgiving fellow, I might open a kiosk near the pageant and sell Freon powered boat horns to anyone wishing to excite the eardrums of whoever is using a megaphone , turn about being fair play and all that.

[thesometimesaint]

On 3/17/2017 at 0:35 PM, JAHS said:

OK so how do you suggest we encourage good speech from those street preachers who are screaming out with a megaphone at people who are trying to enjoy a spiritual moment at the pageant?
You did see the video I posted earlier right?

A gentle answer turns away wrath. When my local Temple had an Open House several protestors showed up. We didn't restrict their ability to protest. We gave them cool water to drink on those hot summer days. They quickly went away. I doubt we changes any minds about the Church, but maybe a few hearts about its members.

[Calm]

TSS, perhaps you would have more credibility if you actually had any experience dealing with protestors.  I don't myself, but I know a number of people who do, including some that have engaged protestors of all types at a variety of pageants and conferences for over a decade, iirc.

While such things may work for local or occasional protestors, they don't for the 'professional' ones.  These are people who make their life's work destroying the Church.  They outfit themselves in attentiongetting garb (flashing lights spelling out words so as they trepass through the crowd at night, they can still be seen, a massive ramshorn so they can blast away at it, costumes including 15 or more dressed up as plural marriage wives (and descending all at once on the free portapotties as a group got them banned from free use of those, apparently going individually didn't get them enough attention...can you imagine how long it took them to maneuver their skirts around?) .  

These repeaters include a number of people who moved to Manti specifically to target the 8 day pageant.  They get up groups tours of their elsewhere supporting (as in paying at least part of their salary if I understand their comments correctly) churches and bring them out once a year in buses to be part of their yearly crowning achievement, to show then how it is all worth the investment.  Their websites are all about the protests and the legal disputes and how they push the boundaries until they get escorted off private property, they are there filming it.  And then they do the same thing the next day.  

If people are nice to them, it is evidence they understand in their hearts the protestors are right while the security walking them off the property is evidence of the Church suppressing the word to their members.  If someone gets worked up, it is evidence they are swallowing lies and need to be chastised before the world.  With that mindset, everything works to sustain the effort, kindness as well as wrath or indifference.

This has been going on down there for possibly 50 years, definitely over 30 (I remember hearing about the protestors when at BYU) though I don't know when it got organized.  Wouldn't be surprised if it was the 60s.  From what I have heard about SLC protestors, the civil longterm protestors have been in the last ten years or so (due to the long term detrimental effect of being associated in people's minds with street screechers) driven away by the presence of the street screechers, the ones who tie garments and the Book of Mormon to ropes and drag them in the dirt or use them to wipe their bum.  The most offensive don't seem to make it down to Manti, probably because it has lost any appeal to the press.  I know of individuals who make it their calling to go to protests to speak civilly to the protestors, give them water and cookies, keep them engaged so they aren't bothering those walking by.  These organized street protestors are there year after year, they get to know each other by name, etc. and guess what, all that kindness hasn't changed their efforts.  They are still using the bullhorns, still screaming they are going to hell, still trespassing and filming in hopes of getting arrested or drawing out aggressive behaviour they can show as persecution.

The protests are organized quite often as much by those who don't attend as those who do.  They get the buses up and filled each year and even if some of the riders are touched and don't come out the next year, the buses still come with newbies and the kids for their rite of passage of witnessing to those going to hell.

So TSS, please show some evidence that your method would result in any change before claiming that is all that is needed.  It shows a distinct lack of respect or ignorance of the ongoing efforts of all those involved, both the protestors and those who engage them as well as arrogance to sit at home in your comfort and accuse those trying to find the best peaceful, legal solution of ignoring the law.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Calm