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Five Solas

Falling out of the American mainstream?

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Thinking about BYU losing the US Air Force ROTC program it has hosted, almost since the inception of the Air Force (as a separate service from the USAAC).  Although some will play down the move to UVU – I think this could prove a watershed moment for BYU and for LDS.

For over half a century the Air Force played by the rules of the LDS authored “Honor Code” at BYU and found officers willing to work within its constraints.  In return, BYU supplied thousands of competent officers. 

And whatever the exact equation of costs vs. benefits for Air Force officer recruitment/training, one thing is certain: The LDS Church and its flagship university aren’t as valuable as they used to be.  They used to be worth accommodating--and now they're not.  LDS influence stands diminished. 

A couple years ago, Daniel C. Peterson wrote an article that was perhaps prescient—

Growing up in the fifties and sixties, it was easy to assume that American society respected Latter-day Saints. We might be out on the theological fringe, regarded as a bit quirky, but American civic religion was at least theoretically pretty much on our side. For example, Americans seemed to honor ideals of faithful, heterosexual marriage, with fathers taking the lead and mothers caring for children. Society was, in other words, largely in sync with, and supportive of, fundamental, practical Mormon values. In fact, Mormons seemed quintessentially American — which, in the postwar era of the Pax Americana, benefited our church not only in the United States but in Europe and Japan.

Today, though, Mormonism and Western society seem to be parting ways in crucial respects.

What do folks think?  Is the Air Force ROTC departure from BYU related to a broader trend Peterson wrote about in 2015?  

--Erik

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There is a divergence. I do not see this as a watershed event. Maybe a minor indicator. I expect it will be noted in a few local and regional papers and then promptly forgotten.

Our stance on SSM is more likely to continue to be a stumbling block for many in and out of the Church. I actually wish we (meaning meaning members and not the institutional church) were more of a political nuisance to the current administration in regards to the current immigration ban and the anti-scientific threats being made. I have tried to be a nuisance in my own small way and hope I have made a difference.

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Any suggestions on appropriately protesting the immigration order for someone that has attempted to act as if there is no such thing as politics most of her life?

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Just now, Calm said:

Any suggestions on appropriately protesting the immigration order for someone that has attempted to act as if there is no such thing as politics most of her life?

They could sign this! I don't see our name on it, unless i'm mistaken

http://www.interfaithimmigration.org/religiousleaderletter/

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9 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Thinking about BYU losing the US Air Force ROTC program it has hosted, almost since the inception of the Air Force (as a separate service from the USAAC).  Although some will play down the move to UVU – I think this could prove a watershed moment for BYU and for LDS.

 

For over half a century the Air Force played by the rules of the LDS authored “Honor Code” at BYU and found officers willing to work within its constraints.  In return, BYU supplied thousands of competent officers. 

 

And whatever the exact equation of costs vs. benefits for Air Force officer recruitment/training, one thing is certain: The LDS Church and its flagship university aren’t as valuable as they used to be.  They used to be worth accommodating--and now they're not.  LDS influence stands diminished. 

 

A couple years ago, Daniel C. Peterson wrote an article that was perhaps prescient—

 

Growing up in the fifties and sixties, it was easy to assume that American society respected Latter-day Saints. We might be out on the theological fringe, regarded as a bit quirky, but American civic religion was at least theoretically pretty much on our side. For example, Americans seemed to honor ideals of faithful, heterosexual marriage, with fathers taking the lead and mothers caring for children. Society was, in other words, largely in sync with, and supportive of, fundamental, practical Mormon values. In fact, Mormons seemed quintessentially American — which, in the postwar era of the Pax Americana, benefited our church not only in the United States but in Europe and Japan.

 

Today, though, Mormonism and Western society seem to be parting ways in crucial respects.

 

What do folks think?  Is the Air Force ROTC departure from BYU related to a broader trend Peterson wrote about in 2015?  

--Erik

 

I agree...but it is the consequence of this new reality that will impact the LDS church the most....their influence in the world as an force for their brand of good is diminishing...vast swaths of the world have a negative view of the church as an uber conservative church that has lost touch with western society and has no power to change its direction other than being that crazy voice shouting in the wilderness.  The societal pendulum has swung and society is leaving the church and its views behind...this will only accelerate as time advances further lessening the influence that the church has in the world... In the not too distant future Mormonism will once again be viewed as a quirky odd fringe religion...a view that is already taking root. The consequences of which is already being felt in lower converts in western society as fewer people chose to align themselves with its 1950's, Ozzie and Harriet, no longer traditional  worldview.

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Really....it is about treating others like grownups instead of children.  People are seeing that now.

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6 hours ago, Calm said:

Any suggestions on appropriately protesting the immigration order for someone that has attempted to act as if there is no such thing as politics most of her life?

Write to your congressional leaders, go join a physical protest, troll Trump on Twitter, donate to organizations contesting the legality of the order, boycott Trump products and those who sell them, there are probably more.

Edited by The Nehor

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11 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Today, though, Mormonism and Western society seem to be parting ways in crucial respects

No thinking is required here. It is self evident.

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I think this is WAY too far of a leap and a huge over reaction to the fact that the Air Force failed to find a not coffee-addicted ROTC commander.   Heck, I think it'll be much more logical to write a thread how this is indicative of how the AF drinks too much coffee, or how the AF assignment maker is an idiot who doesn't know the culture of where he's trying to recruit.   

 

Now, if you want to argue "LDS and mainstream culture" are falling out using other case examples, I'd happily agree with you.  But not this case example.

Edited by Jane_Doe

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In order to fall out of the mainstream, you first have to be in the mainstream.

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IF the BoM was written for our modern era, THEN the divergence was foreseen and is a repeat of what happened to the Nephites . It may take another 100 years but the ' wind' has been sown.

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14 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Thinking about BYU losing the US Air Force ROTC program it has hosted, almost since the inception of the Air Force (as a separate service from the USAAC).  Although some will play down the move to UVU – I think this could prove a watershed moment for BYU and for LDS.

 

For over half a century the Air Force played by the rules of the LDS authored “Honor Code” at BYU and found officers willing to work within its constraints.  In return, BYU supplied thousands of competent officers. 

 

And whatever the exact equation of costs vs. benefits for Air Force officer recruitment/training, one thing is certain: The LDS Church and its flagship university aren’t as valuable as they used to be.  They used to be worth accommodating--and now they're not.  LDS influence stands diminished. 

 

A couple years ago, Daniel C. Peterson wrote an article that was perhaps prescient—

 

Growing up in the fifties and sixties, it was easy to assume that American society respected Latter-day Saints. We might be out on the theological fringe, regarded as a bit quirky, but American civic religion was at least theoretically pretty much on our side. For example, Americans seemed to honor ideals of faithful, heterosexual marriage, with fathers taking the lead and mothers caring for children. Society was, in other words, largely in sync with, and supportive of, fundamental, practical Mormon values. In fact, Mormons seemed quintessentially American — which, in the postwar era of the Pax Americana, benefited our church not only in the United States but in Europe and Japan.

 

Today, though, Mormonism and Western society seem to be parting ways in crucial respects.

 

What do folks think?  Is the Air Force ROTC departure from BYU related to a broader trend Peterson wrote about in 2015?  

--Erik

 

And how are you Evangelicals doing? 

Is the earth still 6000 years old?

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3 hours ago, Thinking said:

In order to fall out of the mainstream, you first have to be in the mainstream.

Best compliment the church has gotten in this thread.

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1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

IF the BoM was written for our modern era, THEN the divergence was foreseen and is a repeat of what happened to the Nephites . It may take another 100 years but the ' wind' has been sown.

Yep. Having been given special early access to the sealed portion, I can tell you that there is this cool part where the Stripling Warrior's set up a training brigade in Helam that is supposed to build a wall, but the people there require the soldiers to drink coffee which is against the soldiers' beliefs. So the soldiers leave and then the city is overrun by the Lamanites because they don't have a wall. It's clearly a foreshadowing of our day when ... wait, yeah, .... I can't exactly tie it together either. :(

 

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43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Best compliment the church has gotten in this thread.

Cue hipster meme

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11 hours ago, Calm said:

Any suggestions on appropriately protesting the immigration order for someone that has attempted to act as if there is no such thing as politics most of her life?

Call your congress/senate representative and give them an explanation as to what your concern is. Did so just this morning for the first time ever in my (albeit shorter) life. If you to still remain a step further from politics, look into refugee causes or reputable groups that need support and donate.

:)

With luv,

BD 

Edited by BlueDreams

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4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Write to your congressional leaders, go join a physical protest, troll Trump on Twitter, donate to organizations contesting the legality of the order, boycott Trump products and those who sell them, there are probably more.

Dont forget the P*ssyhat ;)

(stupid censor)

Edited by BlueDreams

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Best compliment the church has gotten in this thread.

It's been puzzling to me why a religion that classifies itself as a peculiar people would desire to be considered mainstream.

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3 hours ago, Thinking said:

It's been puzzling to me why a religion that classifies itself as a peculiar people would desire to be considered mainstream.

I want to be considered mainstream in a few areas like being willing to serve and help others but, in general, I agree. Being in synch with the world is a scriptually dubious position. Historically God's people are generally perceived by others as rebels and nuisances to society. I think I understand why there was a phase where we were more mainstream than usual but we should never expect that situation to last.

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The watershed moment is not the ROTC leaving BYU.  The watershed moment happened long before this latest issue with the church jumping in to support Prop 8.  The church went from a family oriented church and safe place to raise children to a church attacking the rights of the gay community.  That was a very pivotal moment in how others viewed the church. And I think the latest ROTC move is directly related to the aggressive view the church takes towards gays.  The DoD is not dumb.  They know where this whole thing is headed.  And I think most members know where this is all headed as well.  While it is a cup of coffee today, it would be a gay marriage discrimination issue at some point, and the DoD was not willing to wait until then.

I am not saying this is all about the attitude towards gays.  The exact same thing would have happened if the church continued to discriminate against blacks.  But the church changed course.  On the gay issue, there seems to be no intention of ever changing those beliefs against gays.  

When someone mentions the Mormon church, the first thing that comes to people's minds is not family centered church any more.  The first thing that comes to people's minds is an intolerant attitude towards anyone who is gay.  While that is not exactly the church position, it is the public's perception of the Mormon church.  Too many people outside the church have family and friends that are gay.  They are not willing to demonize them in order to embrace the beliefs of the Mormon church.  Less people will continue to accept the rest of the message the church has to offer.  It is a deal breaker to many both within the church and without.  It is a deal breaker with a lot of millennials   And I am sure the church is quite willing to keep that position in place no matter what the cost.

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

The watershed moment is not the ROTC leaving BYU.  The watershed moment happened long before this latest issue with the church jumping in to support Prop 8.  The church went from a family oriented church and safe place to raise children to a church attacking the rights of the gay community.  That was a very pivotal moment in how others viewed the church. And I think the latest ROTC move is directly related to the aggressive view the church takes towards gays.  The DoD is not dumb.  They know where this whole thing is headed.  And I think most members know where this is all headed as well.  While it is a cup of coffee today, it would be a gay marriage discrimination issue at some point, and the DoD was not willing to wait until then.

I am not saying this is all about the attitude towards gays.  The exact same thing would have happened if the church continued to discriminate against blacks.  But the church changed course.  On the gay issue, there seems to be no intention of ever changing those beliefs against gays.  

When someone mentions the Mormon church, the first thing that comes to people's minds is not family centered church any more.  The first thing that comes to people's minds is an intolerant attitude towards anyone who is gay.  While that is not exactly the church position, it is the public's perception of the Mormon church.  Too many people outside the church have family and friends that are gay.  They are not willing to demonize them in order to embrace the beliefs of the Mormon church.  Less people will continue to accept the rest of the message the church has to offer.  It is a deal breaker to many both within the church and without.  It is a deal breaker with a lot of millennials   And I am sure the church is quite willing to keep that position in place no matter what the cost.

I think if the Brethren had the option of changing it on their own authority they would consider it. However they believe they need the permission of a higher authority.

If it hurts public perception we will survive. I am not even sure it would hurt the missionary work much to be hated in this way. Our high baptism rates in England came when we were lambasted over the pulpits of most of their churches and accused of quasi-abducting young women to feed the insatiable lusts of our apostles.

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The kingdom of God and Babylon can only get along for so long.  Eventually everyone will have to make a choice where they will plant their flag. 

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54 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

The kingdom of God and Babylon can only get along for so long.  Eventually everyone will have to make a choice where they will plant their flag. 

Is all I can say is I hope the church leaders are right about this one.  The price they are paying is pretty hard.  They are putting at risk an entire generation.  That is a big price to pay unless they are absolutely sure they know the will of God.

Edited by california boy

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On 1/30/2017 at 0:28 AM, The Nehor said:

...

Our stance on SSM is more likely to continue to be a stumbling block ...

The LDS fixation on SSM in recent years is fascinating.  Such a trivial thing, compared to abortion for example. 

Yes, you're on topic because yes, SSM was what Peterson was thinking about when he typed what I quoted above.  If his writings are a clue, he thinks about SSM quite a lot. 

But have you considered it might be bigger than that?  That SSM might be a distraction, just an excuse?  That it's not really the cause for 72% attrition of LDS Millennials by age 20 (thank you, MormonLeaks).  That it's not the reason UW affiliated YSA wards in my neighborhood (Seattle's University District) have been cut in half from 4 to 2 in the past dozen years.  That it's unrelated to the Air Force ROTC leaving BYU and moving to UVU.  And that the diminishing influence of the LDS Church across the board is not simply summarized as, "SSM." 

Serious question, now what do you think?

--Erik

PS.  On a completely unrelated note, I do applaud your view on the recent executive order concerning immigration.  While Trump carried Utah handily, it's encouraging to hear LDS feeling some tension over this.  Meanwhile in Seattle, parts of downtown are being intermittently closed due to mass protests.  I haven't checked the news, but I trust the traffic is flowing comfortably in Salt Lake City and Provo...

;0)

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17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And how are you Evangelicals doing? 

Is the earth still 6000 years old?

Seeing some numbers growth in Seattle, but the city itself is growing rapidly.  A rising tide lifts all boats as they say (okay, maybe not the LDS one).  Certainly encouraging to see us emerge on the other side of the Mars Hill implosion with more and stronger local churches.   And regarding you second question, commitment to a "young earth" is not part of anyone's confession of faith that I'm aware of around here.  So no, and it hasn't been for a long time near as I can tell.

Thanks for asking, mfbukowski

:0)

--Erik

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