JLHPROF Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Saw this today on Common Consent. Very interesting. Study says young adult Mormons most likely generation to tithe (but there’s a catch) The catch: younger members are more likely than their elders to say they’re paying tithing on net, rather than gross, income. So leaving aside the source (Reiss) and any debate over the accuracy of the poll, why do we think that might be? Why would young adults pay tithing more than the older generation, but limit it to net? What do you all think? 1 Link to comment
Jeanne Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Saw this today on Common Consent. Very interesting. Study says young adult Mormons most likely generation to tithe (but there’s a catch) The catch: younger members are more likely than their elders to say they’re paying tithing on net, rather than gross, income. So leaving aside the source (Reiss) and any debate over the accuracy of the poll, why do we think that might be? Why would young adults pay tithing more than the older generation, but limit it to net? What do you all think? They have got bills/student loans that need to be paid...no one has actually said whether tithing if full on gross or net. Some things just have to come first.like heat and food. 1 Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 4 minutes ago, Jeanne said: They have got bills/student loans that need to be paid...no one has actually said whether tithing if full on gross or net. Some things just have to come first.like heat and food. But why are they MORE willing to pay, but less willing to pay on gross. It can't be poverty or they would be less willing to pay period. Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Tithing is between the individual and the Lord and nobody else's business. If you lie to God- that is not a bright move. So I presume that those who say there are "full tithe payers" are not lying. We do not audit individuals for tithing, 4 Link to comment
Jeanne Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: But why are they MORE willing to pay, but less willing to pay on gross. It can't be poverty or they would be less willing to pay period. I understand what you are saying. Perhaps they are blessed with a more giving spirit or that they understand the law better...I really don't know so yeah..this is interesting. Link to comment
CV75 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) 40 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Saw this today on Common Consent. Very interesting. Study says young adult Mormons most likely generation to tithe (but there’s a catch) The catch: younger members are more likely than their elders to say they’re paying tithing on net, rather than gross, income. So leaving aside the source (Reiss) and any debate over the accuracy of the poll, why do we think that might be? Why would young adults pay tithing more than the older generation, but limit it to net? What do you all think? I think they are socially more conscientious and also a bit more practical due to employment realities during the adult habit-forming years, than their parents' / grandparents' generations. Edited December 31, 2016 by CV75 Link to comment
bluebell Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 I pay on net because that's how I always assumed tithing was paid. No one ever said anything different growing up. 2 Link to comment
CV75 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 I don't think it matters much dollar-wise anyway for those that itemize their US tax deductions; not sure how many US young adults itemize, though. Link to comment
Calm Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 56 minutes ago, bluebell said: I pay on net because that's how I always assumed tithing was paid. No one ever said anything different growing up. I suspect they are just more aware of the options while others were taught gross was the proper way...or if taught net was an option, it was always along with 'do you want net or gross blessings/eternal fire insurance/etc.?' I haven't heard that in years at church. 1 Link to comment
Popular Post rpn Posted December 31, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) I think it is harder to figure out how to pay what as ten percent in the US now (and maybe other countries, some of which confiscate huge amounts of personal income bigger than the US presently does). For instance. if you work and finally get social security, do you pay all your life on the gross, and then don't pay anything on the Social Security and Medicare you collect (which theoretically for all and actually for at least the first years is merely repaying what you and your employer already paid in), until your share is used up, and then start paying more? Or is SS payments more in the nature of insurance, for which you don't include at all as increase? If you're self-employed, does gross include the extra 7.65% you pay for FICA that is paid by the employers of other people, effectively increasing your tithing rate as compared to an employee, even if your actual income is identical? Does it matter what the government does with your money, whether you pay tithing on money you never see because it is income taxed out of your paycheck, or sales taxed out of your budget? It used to be a lot easier to see the common good generated by taxes, for which all of society benefits. And what about your contributions to a HSA or a 401K? When you subsidize the ward budget (yes, I know no one is supposed to, but lots of members do anyway), do you tithe on that too? Many questions that people of good will and faith might decide differently all while claiming full tithepayer status. Edited December 31, 2016 by rpn 7 Link to comment
bsjkki Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 We used to always pay tithing on gross but recently switched to net with plans to pay tithing on our retirement and social security as we use it. I am at peace with the decision after stewing about it. It's difficult to pay 10 percent on something that you only see 50 percent of. We pay tithing on the money we "see" and I quit thinking about it. 3 Link to comment
carbon dioxide Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: The catch: younger members are more likely than their elders to say they’re paying tithing on net, rather than gross, income. I pay on the net instead of the gross. It also solves some issues for me later in life like should I pay tithing on my social security and retirement income? If I pay on the gross, then I guess I could say that I don't need to pay tithing when I get my SS and IRA and 401K income when I retire. But if I pay the net, I know I should pay tithing on my SS and other retirement income. 1 Link to comment
Rain Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 5 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Saw this today on Common Consent. Very interesting. Study says young adult Mormons most likely generation to tithe (but there’s a catch) The catch: younger members are more likely than their elders to say they’re paying tithing on net, rather than gross, income. So leaving aside the source (Reiss) and any debate over the accuracy of the poll, why do we think that might be? Why would young adults pay tithing more than the older generation, but limit it to net? What do you all think? Perhaps net has become more socially acceptable so the YA are more willing to consider it over gross. Then perhaps because it is less, more are more comfortable, for whatever reason, to pay it. Link to comment
Popular Post The Nehor Posted December 31, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2016 7 hours ago, JLHPROF said: But why are they MORE willing to pay, but less willing to pay on gross. It can't be poverty or they would be less willing to pay period. Because they believe in the principle. Despite taxes being at historically low values the buying power of the dollar has diminished considerably since the boom years many of our parents lived through where you expected raises and a general increase in standard of living as you aged. I remember reading that previous generations tended to have an average of around 25-30% of their income consumed by fixed living expenses while it has now grown to 50%+ for most families. Over a third of my monthly income goes to rent. Thankfully I bought my car with cash or I would probably be much closer to 50%. I pay on net but that was because I had a chat with God about it. I don't even remember how the topic came up in my prayer. I always paid gross before but there was a strong impression to pay net. Just to be clear: NO ONE TAKE WHAT I WAS TOLD AS LICENSE TO DO THE SAME! It was for me and me alone. Get your own revelation when deciding what to do. 7 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) 18 hours ago, rpn said: I think it is harder to figure out how to pay what as ten percent in the US now (and maybe other countries, some of which confiscate huge amounts of personal income bigger than the US presently does). For instance. if you work and finally get social security, do you pay all your life on the gross, and then don't pay anything on the Social Security and Medicare you collect (which theoretically for all and actually for at least the first years is merely repaying what you and your employer already paid in), until your share is used up, and then start paying more? Or is SS payments more in the nature of insurance, for which you don't include at all as increase? If you're self-employed, does gross include the extra 7.65% you pay for FICA that is paid by the employers of other people, effectively increasing your tithing rate as compared to an employee, even if your actual income is identical? Does it matter what the government does with your money, whether you pay tithing on money you never see because it is income taxed out of your paycheck, or sales taxed out of your budget? It used to be a lot easier to see the common good generated by taxes, for which all of society benefits. And what about your contributions to a HSA or a 401K? When you subsidize the ward budget (yes, I know no one is supposed to, but lots of members do anyway), do you tithe on that too? Many questions that people of good will and faith might decide differently all while claiming full tithepayer status. And on the other hand, is living in a civilized country part of your "increase"? How much of your income goes to paying for your ability to live in a peaceful society because of the military and police, and how much of that is your "increase"? And how much are paved roads worth and schools? Your kids go to school for free- is that an "increase"? How much does the money going to the UN makes your life better and therefore should be tithed? I guess for the highly scrupulous this should all be factored in. "Well 12.37% of my tax money is wasted, therefore I will not pay for that, but I WILL pay for what goes to the military, but that is wasted too in many cases..... on the other hand I will not support abortion, so scratch that percentage and....." You could easily drive yourself quite crazy. I kind of pay on my net and then throw some more in, pray about it and call it even. I think it's ok with the Lord but I guess I will find out eventually. Plus I have a business and of course I do not pay on my gross on that any more than a farmer would pay for what he spends on "seed money" I suppose, though I have never been a farmer. This is where the Holy Ghost comes in big time. Edited December 31, 2016 by mfbukowski Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 12 hours ago, The Nehor said: Because they believe in the principle. Despite taxes being at historically low values the buying power of the dollar has diminished considerably since the boom years many of our parents lived through where you expected raises and a general increase in standard of living as you aged. I remember reading that previous generations tended to have an average of around 25-30% of their income consumed by fixed living expenses while it has now grown to 50%+ for most families. Over a third of my monthly income goes to rent. Thankfully I bought my car with cash or I would probably be much closer to 50%. I pay on net but that was because I had a chat with God about it. I don't even remember how the topic came up in my prayer. I always paid gross before but there was a strong impression to pay net. Just to be clear: NO ONE TAKE WHAT I WAS TOLD AS LICENSE TO DO THE SAME! It was for me and me alone. Get your own revelation when deciding what to do. But ........but........ I ALWAYS do what The Nehor tells me to do!!! AUGH! The world has lost it's meaning!!!! What shall we DO????? 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) On 12/30/2016 at 5:25 PM, Calm said: I suspect they are just more aware of the options while others were taught gross was the proper way...or if taught net was an option, it was always along with 'do you want net or gross blessings/eternal fire insurance/etc.?' I haven't heard that in years at church. Just for you, I will say that in my next talk. Edited January 1, 2017 by mfbukowski Link to comment
Tacenda Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) I use to pay on gross, then turned to net and paid on our tax return each year. Now, I believe everyone should just pay on increase like was set up in the beginning. The church wastes a lot of your tithing money, IMO. Maybe if they only got increase they'd be more careful and live a lot simply. They tell us to simplify. But they don't. They spend like there is no tomorrow, IMO. I'd like to see them streamline and take care of the needy, none of this gawdy stuff. Edited December 31, 2016 by Tacenda 1 Link to comment
bluebell Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 22 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I use to pay on gross, then turned to net and paid on our tax return each year. Now, I believe everyone should just pay on increase like was set up in the beginning. The church wastes a lot of your tithing money. Maybe if they only got increase they'd be more careful and live a lot simply. They tell us to simplify. But they don't. They spend like there is no tomorrow, IMO. I'd like to see them streamline and take care of the needy, none of this gawdy stuff. CFR that the church wastes our tithing. Don't make statements of fact without backing them up. 2 Link to comment
Calm Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 7 minutes ago, bluebell said: CFR that the church wastes our tithing. Don't make statements of fact without backing them up. Second that. 1 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) 37 minutes ago, bluebell said: CFR that the church wastes our tithing. Don't make statements of fact without backing them up. I'll just change my quote. I've seen it, I know someone who works for the church and sets up for holiday concerts etc. I know that the sets cost thousands, just to be thrown out, and at other times older pianos, etc. But I know this is from me and not this individual, so take it for what it's worth. But that's what I mean, can't they simplify like they tell us to simplify, reuse items? There are members in this church who are going hungry, they should be helped along with many others. Lights at some of the temples do go for thousands also (I'm probably part of the problem since I love to go see them). There is so much waste, IMO. Can I have an opinion? I will definitely change my post to show that of course. I have my dad's cynacism in me. Growing up, he would say things similar. He would wonder why the church couldn't build places for people like my mom, who had Alzheimers. We could never find a decent place. Of course the funds weren't there all the time either. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/of-things-that-matter-most?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/10/let-him-do-it-with-simplicity?lang=eng https://www.mormonchannel.org/listen/series/mormon-channel-daily-audio/how-to-simplify-your-life Edited January 1, 2017 by Tacenda Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I use to pay on gross, then turned to net and paid on our tax return each year. Now, I believe everyone should just pay on increase like was set up in the beginning. The church wastes a lot of your tithing money. Maybe if they only got increase they'd be more careful and live a lot simply. They tell us to simplify. But they don't. They spend like there is no tomorrow, IMO. I'd like to see them streamline and take care of the needy, none of this gawdy stuff. Do we really need to go down this road again? 1. The Church doesn't "waste" money and there has been no evidence to support that. The Church is well known to be financially thrifty. 2. What do the scriptures say about spending money on Church items and ordinances? 3. Define "gawdy stuff". Edited December 31, 2016 by JLHPROF Link to comment
Tacenda Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Do we really need to go down this road again? 1. The Church doesn't "waste" money and there has been no evidence to support that. The Church is well known to be financially thrifty. 2. What do the scriptures say about spending money on Church items and ordinances? 3. Define "gawdy stuff". I posted right before yours, I mention some things. But now regretting my rehashing of these complaints. 1 Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 Just now, Tacenda said: I posted right before yours, I mention some things. But now regretting my rehashing of these complaints. I actually have no problem with you disagreeing with how the Church uses its funds. People have every right to their opinion. But I don't see any evidence of waste, and certainly no evidence that they violate any scriptural principles. In other words, I may think they could use the money better too, but I see nothing morally wrong identifiable in their use of funds. The "it could have gone to the poor" argument always comes back to: Matt 26:7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat. 8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste? 9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. 10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. 11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always. 12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial. 13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her. 3 Link to comment
Teancum Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Do we really need to go down this road again? 1. The Church doesn't "waste" money and there has been no evidence to support that. The Church is well known to be financially thrifty. 2. What do the scriptures say about spending money on Church items and ordinances? 3. Define "gawdy stuff". Historically number 1 can be demonstrated as patently false. There have been times the church has wasted money and even to the brink of financial ruin. Some in its most early days when it was heavily in debt. Some due to establishing Zion in the west. Some due to the government pressure and seizure of property over the issue of Polygamy. A most recent example was the overly ambitious building program in the President McKay administration as overseen by President Moyle. This resulted in the last years the church published financial statements and may have been one of the motivating factors for closing the books to the public including tithe paying members. Now we have no way to know whether the church wastes money or not. How can one find evidence when the evidence is not available? But my guess is since the late 1950s and early 1960s when they brought in N Eldon Tanner to clean things up there likely has been little waste and the church has become what you term financially thrifty. Link to comment
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