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ALarson

Allegedly secret LDS Church documents leaked

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Just now, ALarson said:

It states that they have access to the "financial records and amounts for an individual member" to be "used in the process of selecting an ecclesiastical leader".

Did you even look at the doc?  (I'll see if I can link directly to that one doc, if you're interested in reading it.)

My stake clerk bro. said that when our current SP was called he (my bro) had to compile a list of all high council, bishoprics and any others that the current SP recommended and the staler exec. sec made the appts for the visiting GA to interview. In essence the visitors wouldn't know who they are interviewing prior to coming here. Though the GA could look at tithing but i wonder if he would? but he would only know the Bishoprics and HC info. not any others and it would be unusual for one of those not to be full tithe payer

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17 minutes ago, Duncan said:

My stake clerk bro. said that when our current SP was called he (my bro) had to compile a list of all high council, bishoprics and any others that the current SP recommended and the staler exec. sec made the appts for the visiting GA to interview. In essence the visitors wouldn't know who they are interviewing prior to coming here. Though the GA could look at tithing but i wonder if he would? but he would only know the Bishoprics and HC info. not any others and it would be unusual for one of those not to be full tithe payer

I can only post what is stated in the doc.  It is the members of the Seventy, Area Presidencies and the DTA/Area Controller who are allowed to have access to the individual member's donation information when "selecting an ecclesiastical leader" (and only at that time).  I'd imagine all those "above" these named have access to this information then and possibly at other times as well.

That part of the doc is in a chart format so it's pretty easy to read. 

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Edited by ALarson

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39 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

And why would any of this matter if leaders are revealed by God???

If everything is revealed by God then why would callings need to be considered or discussed?  They could just automatically pop into the bishop's (or whoevers) head.

In reality church leaders council together and discuss the people being considered for a calling.  A persons church record may be lchecked to see if they have a current temple recommend or if they served a mission (if it was felt to be important to the calling).  Leaders council together, and invite the Spirit to be part of that counsiling.  The Lord does not just automatically give things with no effort on our part.  He's a partner in the process, not a dictator. 

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14 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

If everything is revealed by God then why would callings need to be considered or discussed?  They could just automatically pop into the bishop's (or whoevers) head.

In reality church leaders council together and discuss the people being considered for a calling.  A persons church record may be lchecked to see if they have a current temple recommend or if they served a mission (if it was felt to be important to the calling).  Leaders council together, and invite the Spirit to be part of that counsiling.  The Lord does not just automatically give things with no effort on our part.  He's a partner in the process, not a dictator. 

But it looks like it is ...follow the money.  I hope you are right..seriously.

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32 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I can only post what is stated in the doc.  It is the members of the Seventy, Area Presidencies and the DTA/Area Controller who are allowed to have access to the individual member's donation information when "selecting an ecclesiastical leader" (and only at that time).  I'd imagine all those "above" these named have access to this information then and possibly at other times as well.

That part of the doc is in a chart format so it's pretty easy to read. 

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I saw it exactly the way you did.  It is in black and white..there is a church header..how can anyone argue with that??

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2 hours ago, ALarson said:

I just read this one: "Financial Standard 6230:  Accessing and Securing Financial Information".  It is interesting to learn that there are only 7 people who have full access to the financial data of the church (The First Presidency, the Presiding Bishop, and the Finance and Records Managing Director / Church Controller).

It also states that members of the seventy and area presidencies are allowed to access "Financial records/amounts for an individual member" if in the process of selecting ecclesiastical leaders.

That may support something that was asked here on the forum lately (whether or not they look at a person's tithing records when selecting a SP).  

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It could also mean that some callings require people to be financially independent because of the time commitment.  

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1 hour ago, Duncan said:

My stake clerk bro. said that when our current SP was called he (my bro) had to compile a list of all high council, bishoprics and any others that the current SP recommended and the staler exec. sec made the appts for the visiting GA to interview. In essence the visitors wouldn't know who they are interviewing prior to coming here. Though the GA could look at tithing but i wonder if he would? but he would only know the Bishoprics and HC info. not any others and it would be unusual for one of those not to be full tithe payer

That's how it worked when our new stake president was called too.  They did all the interviews in 3 days and didn't know who they were going to interview before they got here.

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I don't like the fact that our Malaysia missionaries do not have a PvP..Professional Visa..but instead it is outlined as a shortcut to get them Tourist Visas instead.  This puts them at risk.  There  should be about 68 missionaries there ..next to Singapore..or part of that.  This is crazy.

Edited by Jeanne

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15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's how it worked when our new stake president was called too.  They did all the interviews in 3 days and didn't know who they were going to interview before they got here.

As far as you know, but they may have been provided with a list or come with one to match up with those they were interviewing or even as information that would help them narrow it down with their selection.  I doubt they just come in cold with no prep.

I actually think that's wise in many ways.  Like you said, to narrow it down to the brothers (who are worthy if they are recommended by the local leaders) that may have more time to dedicate or also those who have proven leadership or business skills.

Edited by JulieM

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32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It could also mean that some callings require people to be financially independent because of the time commitment.  

Oh it could mean any number of things and I agree.  As others have posted, it could also assist these leaders in knowing who in the stake has developed abilities that would help them as a SP.   I just remembered the thread, and this clearly answers the question that was asked.  I'd imagine this is just one of many considerations taken into account during the selection process.

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I really appreciated the fact that the church allows its people to use business class when the flight is five hours or longer.   Hooray for common sense.  (And this appears to be all different categories and levels of staff.)

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e "financial records and amounts for an individual member" to be "used in the process of selecting an ecclesiastical leader"

Some speculate that people are chosen for callings based on the numbers (because those in an area that has never seen a farmer, insurance agent, truck driver in a leadership position, may think only drs, dentists, and lawyers or wealthy people are considered for leadership callings).   It could just as easily be construed as not calling those whose financial circumstances are so humble that their family would suffer financially as well as the personal sacrifice.   Or it could be that they simply check to make sure the person is paying tithing and fast offerings ---- not unreasonable for a person who is expected to oversee a flock of people expected to do that.

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1 hour ago, JulieM said:

As far as you know, but they may have been provided with a list or come with one to match up with those they were interviewing or even as information that would help them narrow it down with their selection.  I doubt they just come in cold with no prep.

This is how they told us it happened.  I don't have any reason to believe they lied about it.

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I actually think that's wise in many ways.  Like you said, to narrow it down to the brothers (who are worthy if they are recommended by the local leaders) that may have more time to dedicate or also those who have proven leadership or business skills.

Could be, but i was thinking more of callings like mission presidents, area seventies, and such-callings that you can't really do while having a job.  Most of the stake presidents that i've had in the past were still working though.

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51 minutes ago, rpn said:

Some speculate that people are chosen for callings based on the numbers (because those in an area that has never seen a farmer, insurance agent, truck driver in a leadership position, may think only drs, dentists, and lawyers or wealthy people are considered for leadership callings).  

They need to get out more.  I've had really poor men as bishop before (one was a welder, not sure about the other) and I've had stake presidents who were farmers.  Both happened in the same area and we had some very wealthy members-dr's, lawyers, and stuff.

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how to interview people were heartbreaking

Do you mean the one with the 'enhanced interrogation technique'?

The guy seems to have a sense of humor along with a need to strike out at the Church or get money.

add-on:  or maybe not, maybe I gave him more credit for brains and wit than he actually has

Edited by Calm

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6 hours ago, ALarson said:

He's stated that he's saving the best docs for last and still has many to post, we'll see.

I have been trying to follow this, but am probably a bit confused by when I read it (after I took my sleep aid) and the fact I read some spoofs of it at the same time (some were pretty funny).

He said he released them in order to get contributions as he couldn't get a job, right? and that was why he was saving the best for last?  Did I get that right or was he just releasing them and then asking for money on the side?

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6 hours ago, halconero said:

To be frank, the whole experience has turned into something of a joke on reddit. The fact that the guy tried to pass off a 1963 CIA Manual as an LDS Security Interrogation Manual, and then pulled stock footage from a security company's website and tried to portray that as the Church's secret nefarious monitoring system undermines the endeavor. Not to mention repeatedly asking for donations in bitcoins.

I was under the impression he was just having fun with these, poking at people who were taking him so seriously (though if he is seriously asking for money as it appears he is, that is a bit much).  After all, the CIA manual with its crossing off of the more dire approaches and replacing them with something much more friendly...surely that couldn't have been serious?

edit: the spoof I saw with modifications wasn't, but really did he post the original without for real?  How bizarre.

Edited by Calm

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4 hours ago, ALarson said:

It looks like he's redacting the personal information now, which is a good thing.

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Unfortunately that will not have stopped posters who took screenshots, etc. before in case the docs got removed.

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5 hours ago, ALarson said:

I think that was clarified and he wasn't passing that off as a church doc, but was only copying what was in the files of the church (which included parts of that manual).

I find that so hard to believe, who would include something like that in official documents and just cross out the progress to nastiness, replacing it with a feel good pat on the back or whatever it was (my memory isn't the best when my relaxation level is being enhanced)?

edit:  probably saw the spoof and then assumed he had posted it because why would anyone really post a 60s CIA document as if it was coming from the Church.  If he posted the original without anything being crossed out expecting it to be accepted as valid, he is significantly off.   Makes me want to delete all personal and financial info off my computer and go to a solely cash existence.

Edited by Calm

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22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This is how they told us it happened.  I don't have any reason to believe they lied about it.

Could be, but i was thinking more of callings like mission presidents, area seventies, and such-callings that you can't really do while having a job.  Most of the stake presidents that i've had in the past were still working though.

Our previous Stake Pres. got fired from his job while serving but like others he got a new one and now he's released and doing something else callingwise

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4 hours ago, halconero said:

I should clarify. I don't mean that it's a joke as in fake, but a joke in the sense that, as you said, some people are getting more excited about them than it really warrants.

With regards to the CIA Doc and the Security one, I don't buy it. The time stamp on those ones came out around the same time he started asking for bitcoin, and his (now deleted posts) insisting it was all real and he had seen it. Also, the CIA Doc is pretty publicly posted on archives, and his insistence that the photo was part of some Security Center indicate that this was an attempt on his part to stir up controversy when he realized the banal reaction these were getting.

Now that makes sense in a twisted sort of way...but seriously that CIA doc...or maybe I just saw a spoof of it.

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4 hours ago, halconero said:

I'm not so sure. From his personal post and comments since then, the guy doesn't seem to be quite in a right place. Throwing around ideas that he's a revolutionary hero, begging for food and donations, claiming that he's both unemployed, but also taking a day off from work to post these. Most of these have been deleted a few hours after originally posted, but it smacks of someone going through some desperate and hard times, and striving to be taken seriously. I feel sorry for him to be honest. 

Okay, this puts in a different place.  Makes sense now (either a big in terms of size, little in terms of import con or someone who is somewhat troubled).  If he got fired, this could also explain that and why he is so resentful of the Church.  Did he ever explain what job put him in the way of these documents and if he copied them or just took copies home with him?

And are they varied at all in terms of what department they probably belong in or just pretty much what you would expect in one office?  If varied, it makes me wonder how he got a hold of them.  Did he explain?

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2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I don't like the fact that our Malaysia missionaries do not have a PvP..Professional Visa..but instead it is outlined as a shortcut to get them Tourist Visas instead.  This puts them at risk. 

How so?

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1 minute ago, Calm said:

How so?

Because they are not tourists???  Would they get in any kind of trouble if government officials find their stay is 2 years? 

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4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I agree.  I understand the guy is very angry..but he is going to get sued..I just know it.

Might he not go to jail or more likely pay a fine to the government, get placed on probation or whatever?  Stealing confidential property from one's employer, even if the Church didn't pursue it, it is in public view and so the police/DAs don't have to depend on the Church reporting it if they wanted to do something about it (not saying they will or they wouldn't ask the Church what is preferred, I would hope they would consider the victim's desires in any case they are interested in) and so could charge him, right?  My only knowledge of the law comes from police procedurals, so would be interested in feedback from someone who actually knows the process.

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4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I feel sorry for him too.  In actuality, it is hard to lose family and friends..

 

Assuming this is accurate.  Has he revealed his identity to at least those who are going through the docs removing inappropriate personal information, etc?

Can reddit be sued or charged, btw, if personal information is allowed to stand or got out already?

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