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Patrick Mason at FairMormon


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2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I suggest you wait until a transcript of the speech is posted to discuss it accurately. I've noticed Bill tends to spin things when he summarizes them.

The ten points are worth discussing whether it's an accurate summary of Mason or not. 

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17 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

I wish we did this kind of questioning of LDS leaders when things like the First vision get removed from journals.

I suspect more members would if LDS leaders were using pirated materials.  They have a right though to do what they want with their own property.

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4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

The ten points are worth discussing whether it's an accurate summary of Mason or not. 

If they are not accurate, then it is worthless to talk about the FM context though.  Or to suggest Mason is promoting it.

(I don't know, btw, I wait for transcripts so I can be better assured I am not adding in my own bias too much)

Edited by Calm
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1 minute ago, Calm said:

If they are not accurate, then it is worthless to talk about the FM context though.

Sure.  I'd be more than willing to discuss them without the FM context.  And if ever we the losers who haven't paid or didn't go will ever get access to the presentation, then we can see how we did. 

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I listened to this last night, saw it on FB. I wondered why I was able to watch it so soon after the Fair Mormon conference. I almost sent it to the lady I visit teach that I loaned the book, "Planted" to. Her son is going through a faith crisis. So glad I didn't, that wouldn't look or be good, if it is pirated. 

I did love what Patrick had so say on so many points and I believe there was a huge round of applause when he mentioned something about women and the Priesthood, now can't remember what it was he said, but that was the only applause I heard. 

 

  

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1 hour ago, DBMormon said:

Patrick Mason recently spoke at FairMormon and gave a very progressive Mormon speech.  I thought it would be good to have a dialogue about the actual points he raises.  the video and audio is behinds Fairmormon's paywall so you will have to take my word for it.  But here is a list of things he says.

1.)  He flatly says we have defined Prophets incorrectly.

2.)  That there is valid reason to doubt.

3.)  That belief is "plausible" (his words) 

4.)  That We made up much of our theology and have put way more in the truth cart then belongs there.

4.) That we should not blame the doubters and that we would be better looking at ourselves for our problems rather than secularists, feminists, intellectuals, and even Satan

5.) That the CES letter was an inevitable response to the false dominant narrative we have taught.  And that said narrative is not his mormonism nor the Mormonism that can flourish in the future.

6.)  He expressed that we must do better to support gender equality and our LGBT brothers and sisters.   He says we aren't loving or inclusive enough

7.)  He says our culture and leadership have sadly adopted a non-apologizing posture towards its mistakes

8.)    He says we need to repent as a church and apologize for our serious errors.

9.)  He says we need to Incorporate more diversity into our church ( race, gender, economic status. sexual orientation, and other differences)

 10.)  He concludes that he is scared of a immature faith never growing up and giving space for nuance and complexity and he fears a fundamentalist takeover

All this at Fairmormon and strangely this is the very same stuff I say and get blasted for.  I also have it on good account that FairMormon's leadership has said behind the scenes this kind of Mormonism and perspective is where they want to head.  Any comments from FairMormon would be appreciated on whether you liked and agreed with Patrick perspective.

 

I'm in general agreement with all these points. To really dialogue, though, I'd want to know specifics. For example, (#2) what reasons to doubt are valid? I would offer two: spiritual manifestation, and the fruit doesn't turn out as promised. (#4) What parts of our theology are made up (sacrament with only the right hand, or bigger stuff) and how do we define "made up" (is it just anything above the canon)? (#8) what things should be apologized for (MMM, racial priesthood/temple ban, etc)? Perhaps at this point, the most that could be accomplished by Patrick Mason was to raise the questions. Answers will come later.

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3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I listened to this last night, saw it on FB. I wondered why I was able to watch it so soon after the Fair Mormon conference. I almost sent it to the lady I visit teach that I loaned the book, "Planted" to. Her son is going through a faith crisis. So glad I didn't, that wouldn't look or be good, if it is pirated. 

I did love what Patrick had so say on so many points and I believe there was a huge round of applause when he mentioned something about women and the Priesthood, now can't remember what it was he said, but that was the only applause I heard. 

 

  

Do the 10 points in the OP sound familiar then? 

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15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

How can he take back his thoughts on that which he heard?  Is it a violation to write up a summary of what he heard? 

He chose to post material he got from pirated property.  He didn't have to do that.  He could have paid for it as soon as he was aware it was stolen if he still wanted to refer to it.

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6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And if they are not accurate, they amount to a list of straw men.

Scott, you've said that you were there. I can only presume that you were there as a journalist, but perhaps not. If you took notes (or even just have a recollection) I'd suggest that this board would be better served by your correcting DB Mormon's recitation of Mason's points rather than dismissing them as straw men. Until then, I'll take DB Mormon's recitation as accurate. His list of points seems quite plausible to me in light of the several interviews of Patrick Mason that I've read (e.g., here: https://bycommonconsent.com/2016/01/09/planted-an-interview-with-patrick-mason/)

Edited by Buckeye
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14 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

How can he take back his thoughts on that which he heard?

He could do something toward making things right by paying FairMormon for the content he pirated. He could take down the post he made in this thread that was based on the pirated content. And he could ask those who quoted him to remove the quotations.

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Is it a violation to write up a summary of what he heard? 

It is if what he heard was stolen.

There are ways to comment without being a party to piracy. For example, there is at least one news report of Mason's talk that I know of (Deseret News). He could link to that report and discuss what was quoted therein.

 

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1 minute ago, Calm said:

He chose to post material he got from pirated property.  He didn't have to do that.  He could have paid for it as soon as he was aware it was stolen if he still wanted to refer to it.

k.  The material he posted here is his summary of what he heard though.  I don't think that constitutes posting material he got from pirates property.  In ignorance he listened to something that was pirated.  He cant' take that back. 

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Just now, stemelbow said:

Do the 10 points in the OP sound familiar then? 

Funny, I don't see the point he made about women and the Priesthood in his 10 points, but yes, these do sound familiar. I listened to it in bed and fell asleep and then had to re-listen a couple of times. I was surprised that it was given at Fair Mormon at all. And he did mention Bro. Hardy and it seems they are in agreement about the BoM, I believe. My take on it anyway. 

Times they are a changin.  

 

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3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

He could do something toward making things right by paying FairMormon for the content he pirated. He could take down the post he made in this thread that was based on the pirated content. And he could ask those who quoted him to remove the quotations.

It is if what he heard was stolen.

There are ways to comment without being a party to piracy. For example, there is at least one news report of Mason's talk that I know of (Deseret News). He could link to that report and discuss what was quoted therein.

 

Here's the link. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865659562/LDS-scholar-calls-for-a-more-embracing-Mormonism-that-rejects-fear.html?pg=all

I especially like the DN's photograph of Dan Peterson asking for Mason's autograph after giving him a standing ovation. :P

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15 minutes ago, Calm said:

I suspect more members would if LDS leaders were using pirated materials.  They have a right though to do what they want with their own property.

haaa.  You have made a lot of accusations in this thread when I have stated your mistaken.  I have to wonder if you will apologize for such assumptions?

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2 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Scott, you've said that you were there. I can only presume that you were there as a journalist, but perhaps not. If you took notes (or even just have a recollection) I'd suggest that this board would be better served by your correcting DB Mormon's recitation of Mason's points rather than dismissing them as straw men. Until then, I'll take DB Mormon's recitation as accurate. His points do not sound that different from the several interview of Patrick Mason that I've read (e.g., here: https://bycommonconsent.com/2016/01/09/planted-an-interview-with-patrick-mason/)

Yes, I was there by invitation as a journalist. No, I didn't take notes on Mason's talk, but one of my colleagues who was present did, and he wrote a story that has been published in the Deseret News.

Meanwhile, the transcript of the speech presumably will be posted on the FairMormon site eventually, perhaps within days. It would not kill anyone to wait a while for it so they can quote and paraphrase it accurately, have accurate context, etc.

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16 minutes ago, Calm said:

I suspect more members would if LDS leaders were using pirated materials.  They have a right though to do what they want with their own property.

The institution may be legally within its rights, but I think there is a higher moral obligation to the members to be transparent and honest.  We the people have rights too.  

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10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Sure.  I'd be more than willing to discuss them without the FM context.  And if ever we the losers who haven't paid or didn't go will ever get access to the presentation, then we can see how we did. 

Transcripts will be up for free as soon as we get them as they have always been except in a few cases where authors choose to hold on to the content.

And videos are free after two years.  Paying for them helps support the conference.  Other option is unfortunately to not have the conference rather than offering them free.  Most of our material is completely free from the start and given the transcripts are free, not much imo to complain about.

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3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

He could do something toward making things right by paying FairMormon for the content he pirated. He could take down the post he made in this thread that was based on the pirated content. And he could ask those who quoted him to remove the quotations.

It is if what he heard was stolen.

There are ways to comment without being a party to piracy. For example, there is at least one news report of Mason's talk that I know of (Deseret News). He could link to that report and discuss what was quoted therein.

 

Thanks Scott.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865659562/LDS-scholar-calls-for-a-more-embracing-Mormonism-that-rejects-fear.html?pg=all

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"(Fear) has led us to think and behave in ways that are not always welcoming either to outsiders or to those within our midst who have questions, different perspectives or who otherwise don't fit a certain mold," he said.

Shoot I've been saying that for forever.  Just playing in my exaggeration.  But I agree with this.  The Church and it's people tend to be very suspicious of each other and outsiders all, seemingly, because of fear. 

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I believe that a more embracing Mormonism may be the most important factor in helping people more fully embrace Mormonism.

Obviously.  I don't mean that flippantly.  But it seems so obvious and yet we seem to opposed to it as a Church.

Quote

Only now, as we approach Mormonism's third century are we in a position where we can think bigger and bolder. I believe that Mormonism's challenge and opportunity in the 21st century will not be simply to survive or even to grow, but rather to contribute, to give something novel and unique that the world desperately needs and could have no other way

Interesting. 

The summary by DesNews and by DBMormon make it sound like an awesome presentation with excellent ideas shared. 

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1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yes, I was there by invitation as a journalist. No, I didn't take notes on Mason's talk, but one of my colleagues who was present did, and he wrote a story that has been published in the Deseret News.

Meanwhile, the transcript of the speech presumably will be posted on the FairMormon site eventually, perhaps within days. It would not kill anyone to wait a while for it so they can quote and paraphrase it accurately, have accurate context, etc.

That's a fantastic idea, and hopefully every word will be exactly as it was said. ;)

I'm hoping to read it again, for fear I dreamed half of it!

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3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yes, I was there by invitation as a journalist. No, I didn't take notes on Mason's talk, but one of my colleagues who was present did, and he wrote a story that has been published in the Deseret News.

Meanwhile, the transcript of the speech presumably will be posted on the FairMormon site eventually, perhaps within days. It would not kill anyone to wait a while for it so they can quote and paraphrase it accurately, have accurate context, etc.

In the meantime, it would also not kill you to wait a while before painting DB Mormon's recitation of points as straw men.  Just saying. 

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1 minute ago, Calm said:

Transcripts will be up for free as soon as we get them as they have always been except in a few cases where authors choose to hold on to the content.

And videos are free after two years.  Paying for them helps support the conference.  Other option is unfortunately to not have the conference rather than offering them free.  Most of our material is completely free from the start and given the transcripts are free, not much imo to complain about.

Thanks.  Thanks for all the hard work.  I'm pleased at some of the reports I've heard from this past conference.  One of these days my budget will give me more leeway. 

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2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Thanks.  Thanks for all the hard work.  I'm pleased at some of the reports I've heard from this past conference.  One of these days my budget will give me more leeway. 

Totally get it.  We would love to give everything away for free, but conference expenses are huge.

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