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Johnnie Cake

Bill Reel's Sunstone Presentation and a Path to the Disavowal of D&C 132

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9 hours ago, sunstoned said:

The whole idea of an angels with a flaming sword is bazaar.  A sword, really?  Why not a gun?  Are the armaments of heaven really tied to iron age Israel?  What of free agency? Wasn't there a war in heaver over that?  The the angel with the flaming sword was not to convince JS to enter into polygamy.  He had already done that, years ago in Kirkland behind his wife's back and before the sealing power was supposedly restored.  The flaming sword story was to convince Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs, a married woman to be his.  One of his many women.

Joseph's early forays into polygamy were half-hearted and not what the Lord had planned.
He hesitated, hemmed and hawed.  Prior to Zina there are only three possible polygamous marriages.
Fanny Alger (sometime between 1833-1836) was a short-lived relationship regardless of what kind you think it was.  By 1836 Joseph was not practicing polygamy.
Lucinda Harris in 1838 is still debated as an actual wife and is based on scanty evidence.
Louisa Beaman in April 1841 is often considered the first actual plural wife followed by Zina in October.

All accounts of the angel are not contemporary, none appearing until the 1850s at the earliest.
According to one, Mary Rollins Lightner, Joseph told her that:

  • "The angel came to me three times between the years of 1834 and 1842 and said I was to obey that principle or he would slay me.’”

Joseph courted Zina in early 1841, BEFORE marrying Louisa and BEFORE she married Henry.  At the time Joseph was not actually living in a polygamous relationship.
True, he told Zina of the angelic visitation shortly after her marriage to Henry in March, but logic would indicate that any such visitation had happened before that time.

So no, you are incorrect that the angel with the sword " was not to convince JS to enter into polygamy".  At the time the angel likely came he was probably not living in a polygamous relationship having delayed for many years, but married Louisa and Zina shortly after as a result.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Jeanne said:

This whole conversation is so bazaar!

Agreed.  I think the beginning is messy and bazaar (see WW Phelps 1861 recollection of the 1831 revelation on taking native american wives referenced in the essay) and then the "ending" is bazaar post-manifesto when considering the concubine conference in Juarez Mexico.   George Q. Cannon said in 1894, "I believe in concubinage, or some plan whereby men and women can live together under sacred ordinances and vows until they can be married."  Abraham H. Cannon diaries, Vault MSS 62, Box 6, Fldr.11 L. Tom Perry Special Collections.  Personally, I just want to know the name of the polygamy angel as per 130:5 he belonged to the earth at some point.  So I'll call him "Nathan".  An angry Nathan is compelling JS by threat of beheading to marry Fanny. 

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1 minute ago, blueglass said:

Agreed.  I think the beginning is messy and bazaar (see WW Phelps 1861 recollection of the 1831 revelation on taking native american wives referenced in the essay) and then the "ending" is bazaar post-manifesto when considering the concubine conference in Juarez Mexico.   George Q. Cannon said in 1894, "I believe in concubinage, or some plan whereby men and women can live together under sacred ordinances and vows until they can be married."  Abraham H. Cannon diaries, Vault MSS 62, Box 6, Fldr.11 L. Tom Perry Special Collections.  Personally, I just want to know the name of the polygamy angel as per 130:5 he belonged to the earth at some point.  So I'll call him "Nathan".  An angry Nathan is compelling JS by threat of beheading to marry Fanny. 

The angel "Nathan" was post-Fanny.  And yes, all angels that visit this earth are from this earth according to scripture.  Which is how we know the "angel" that Jacob wrestled was Heavenly Father.

And the conversation is only bizarre because of our modern sensibilities and traditions.  Polygamous cultures abound through many places and all periods of time.  We are just comfortable with what we are used to.  Joseph recognized that.

 

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5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The angel "Nathan" was post-Fanny.  And yes, all angels that visit this earth are from this earth according to scripture.  Which is how we know the "angel" that Jacob wrestled was Heavenly Father.

And the conversation is only bizarre because of our modern sensibilities and traditions.  Polygamous cultures abound through many places and all periods of time.  We are just comfortable with what we are used to.  Joseph recognized that.

 

It was just as bizarre in 1835.  Joseph's relationship spectrum should be categorized a bit wider as he was both concubinous/polygamous/polyandrous/ and polyamorous.

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1 minute ago, blueglass said:

It was just as bizarre in 1835.  Joseph's relationship spectrum should be categorized a bit wider as he was both concubinous/polygamous/polyandrous/ and polyamorous.

It only appears that way because of our traditions.

If we only accept legal marriages as valid then Joseph was monogamous but adulterous.
If we accept BOTH legal and priesthood marriages as valid then yes, Joseph appears to be all of the above.
If we only accept priesthood marriages as valid then Joseph was only polygamous.
It comes back to what our personal perspective makes us see.

But in reality, it only matters how God viewed these marriages and how the participants viewed them.
I personally doubt completely that Joseph viewed himself as participating in polyandry or polyamory.  Concubinous and polygamous probably.
It is necessary to actually know the beliefs of the participants before we start assigning them a belief system.

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

"The angel came to me three times between the years of 1834 and 1842 and said I was to obey that principle or he would slay me.’”

I thought Hales dates fanny to most likely 1835.

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6 minutes ago, blueglass said:

I thought Hales dates fanny to most likely 1835.

Fanny dates between 1833 & 1836 some time.
The angel that came to command plural marriage according to Mary Lightner may have made his first visit in 1834 that led to the marriage to Fanny.
The result of that attempt could have led to the second visit, maybe around 1838 when the possible marriage to Lucinda Harris occurred.
But Joseph remained hesitant and uncommitted.

Which led to the 3rd visit wherein Joseph was threatened with the sword which would have been in around 1841, after which he married Louisa and Zina within a few months.

There is no record of an angel "compelling JS by threat of beheading to marry Fanny."

Edited by JLHPROF

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On 8/1/2016 at 8:30 AM, drums12 said:

If so there goes most of the Old Testament.

The Old Testament has been as troubling to me as Mormon history.

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9 minutes ago, Thinking said:

The Old Testament has been as troubling to me as Mormon history.

I understand this feeling.
But the source of this feeling and the potential for moving past are interesting topics to me.

Just how much of our troubled feelings come from our own false traditions.  And how often do we place those feelings back on the actions of God.

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

The angel "Nathan" was post-Fanny.  And yes, all angels that visit this earth are from this earth according to scripture.  Which is how we know the "angel" that Jacob wrestled was Heavenly Father.

And the conversation is only bizarre because of our modern sensibilities and traditions.  Polygamous cultures abound through many places and all periods of time.  We are just comfortable with what we are used to.  Joseph recognized that.

 

But where are the angels today??  Still the Lord's church with prophecy and revelation...where did they go?

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1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

But where are the angels today??  Still the Lord's church with prophecy and revelation...where did they go?

Many, many theories on that one.

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2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

There is no record of an angel "compelling JS by threat of beheading to marry Fanny."

From the 10 people who spoke of the angel and sword account, we can say in place of "beheading", [he would be slain] according to Ben Johnson, or [prepared to inflict the penalty of death] if he did not comply according to Helen Mar, or [he should be damned and cut off] according to Dennison Lott.  In place of "Fanny" we could say [Zina], [Presendia] or [Sylvia].  At that point Joseph had to “to plead on his knees before the Angel for his Life" according to Erastus Snow, because the angel was compelling Joseph to marry other men's wives. 

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Just now, blueglass said:

From the 10 people who spoke of the angel and sword account, we can say in place of "beheading", [he would be slain] according to Ben Johnson, or [prepared to inflict the penalty of death] if he did not comply according to Helen Mar, or [he should be damned and cut off] according to Dennison Lott.  In place of "Fanny" we could say [Zina], [Presendia] or [Sylvia].  At that point Joseph had to “to plead on his knees before the Angel for his Life" according to Erastus Snow, because the angel was compelling Joseph to marry other men's wives. 

Now you're finally getting a bit more accurate.

So to use your "in place of's":

  • Joseph was warned he would be slain or his life would be taken if he did not comply and he would be damned and Joseph then plead for mercy for his life and then following God's commands.

And as far as the record shows it was not specific to his marrying any particular wife, just actively entering into polygamous marriages.  Which he then proceeded to do with Zina and Louisa and then others.
Isn't accuracy fun?
 

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40 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Many, many theories on that one.

Of course there is.

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7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I understand this feeling.
But the source of this feeling and the potential for moving past are interesting topics to me.

Just how much of our troubled feelings come from our own false traditions.  And how often do we place those feelings back on the actions of God.

Perhaps we place those feelings on the actions of those who presume to speak for God.

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11 hours ago, JLHPROF said:



There is no record of an angel "compelling JS by threat of beheading to marry Fanny."

Some secret polygamous unions come easier than others.

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