jana at jade house Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 I know this has been done to death but here I am with a recommend carrying member that is convinced that as long as her coffee and tea are not hot then it is OK. She's never been able to find when and who redefined hot drinks as coffee and tea. I am on the road and cannot research. I bet one of you can point to the right reference. And when did caffeine become the default explanation? Has that been taught by a prophet or is that just deeply in bedded tradition. Thanks for any input. This is not a discussion of interpretation. I need bona fide prophetic teaching references. Please. Link to comment
UtahTexan Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 I have been told in my last interview that caffeine is not the issue and can be used. it is specifically tea and coffee. I am uncertain how Iced Tea applies, but it does Link to comment
Calm Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/word-of-wisdom-caffeine-and-hypocrisy Also: http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/word-of-wisdom-official-statements http://en.fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wisdom/History_and_implementation 1 Link to comment
Gray Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 There really isn't anything definitive. There is a quote by Hyrum Smith that is often brought up, that interprets hot drinks as coffee and tea. But I can't tell from context if he means it's because coffee and tea are the beverages that are consumed hot, or because he thought cold coffee and tea would also have been forbidden. I recently tried to find something saying that herbal tea is allowed and came up with nothing. The WOW is a bit of a mess. 2 Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 (edited) 34 minutes ago, jana at jade house said: I know this has been done to death but here I am with a recommend carrying member that is convinced that as long as her coffee and tea are not hot then it is OK. I don't know if it is the temperature or the content that makes the issue but hot drinks does refer to tea and coffee. Quote She's never been able to find when and who redefined hot drinks as coffee and tea. I am on the road and cannot research. I bet one of you can point to the right reference. Hot drinks were defined as tea and coffee from the beginning. I actually learned this on this board - I thought that it was a later invention but was surprised that it originated in Joseph's day. Tobacco is a nauseous, stinking, abominable thing, and I am surprised that any human being should think of using it. For an elder especially to eat, or smoke it, is a disgrace to him;—he is not fit for the office, he ought first to learn to keep the word of wisdom, and then to teach others. God will not prosper the man who uses it. And again, "hot drinks are not for the body, or belly." There are many who wonder what this can mean, whether it refers to tea or coffee, or not. I say it does refer to tea and coffee. - Hyrum Smith - Times and Seasons 3:800, June 1, 1842) On a Sabbath day, in the July [1833] following the giving of the revelation, when both Joseph and Hyrum Smith were in the stand, the Prophet said to the Saints: "I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom." "The Lord was showing us what was good for man to eat and drink. Now, what do we drink when we take our meals?" "Tea and coffee. Is it not?" "Yes; tea and coffee." "Then, they are what the Lord meant when He said 'hot drinks.'" - Joel Hills Johnson quoted in Remembering Joseph, 253-254 "I have heard it argued that tea and coffee are not mentioned in the Word of Wisdom; that is very true; but what were the people in the habit of taking as hot drinks when that revelation was given? Tea and coffee. We were not in the habit of drinking water very hot, but tea and coffee—the beverages in common use." (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 283) Quote And when did caffeine become the default explanation? Has that been taught by a prophet or is that just deeply in bedded tradition. Thanks for any input. This is not a discussion of interpretation. I need bona fide prophetic teaching references. Please. Not sure when it became misinterpreted as caffeine, but perhaps caffeine falls under the herbs not drugs rule. Edited July 30, 2016 by JLHPROF 2 Link to comment
UtahTexan Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 My Bishop said it is the Church Leader's Handbook....not sure if that is the correct name for it. Anyone it sates hot drinks refers to coffee and tea. As an attorney, I told him that it could not, then, include iced tea..but he says it does..... I do not ever drink coffee and tea anyway (even when I was not LDS)..so...not a big deal for me.... Link to comment
Calm Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 See the official statements link above 1 Link to comment
Rain Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Quote The Word of Wisdom teaches that we are to eat healthy foods. It teaches very specifically that we are to avoid harmful substances, including alcohol, tobacco, tea, and coffee. We must also avoid harmful drugs in any form. To be baptized and confirmed, those you teach must give up these substances . From Preach My Gospel Link to comment
carbon dioxide Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 1 hour ago, jana at jade house said: I know this has been done to death but here I am with a recommend carrying member that is convinced that as long as her coffee and tea are not hot then it is OK. She's never been able to find when and who redefined hot drinks as coffee and tea. I am on the road and cannot research. I bet one of you can point to the right reference. And when did caffeine become the default explanation? Has that been taught by a prophet or is that just deeply in bedded tradition. Thanks for any input. This is not a discussion of interpretation. I need bona fide prophetic teaching references. Please. Ask your friend if drinking hot milk or water would violate the WOW. If the answer is no than its not an issue of temperature. Link to comment
Rain Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Quote The Lord also counsels us against the use of “hot drinks” (D&C 89:9). Church leaders have said that this means coffee and tea, which contain harmful substances. We should avoid all drinks that contain harmful substances From Gospel Principles.https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-29-the-lords-law-of-health?lang=eng Link to comment
Rain Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Quote During a visit with the queen of the Netherlands in 1952, President and Sister McKay had an interesting experience. The queen had scheduled 30 minutes for a visit with them. President McKay carefully watched the time, and when the half hour was up, he politely thanked the queen and began to leave. “Mr. McKay,” she said, “sit down! I have enjoyed this thirty minutes more than I have enjoyed any thirty minutes in a long time. I just wish you would extend our visit a little longer.” He sat down again. Then a coffee table was brought in, and the queen poured three cups of tea, giving one to President McKay, one to Sister McKay, and keeping one for herself. When the queen noticed that neither of her guests drank the tea, she asked, “Won’t you have a little tea with the Queen?” President McKay explained, “I must tell you that our people do not believe in drinking stimulants, and we think tea is a stimulant.” She said, “I am the Queen of the Netherlands. Do you mean to tell me you won’t have a little drink of tea, even with the Queen of the Netherlands?” President McKay responded, “Would the Queen of the Netherlands ask the leader of a million, three hundred thousand people to do something that he teaches his people not to do?” “You are a great man, President McKay,” she said. “I wouldn’t ask you to do that.”2 Quote Members of the Church who have formed either the tobacco habit or the tea and coffee habit, or both, are prone to seek justification for their indulgences in things which the Lord has said plainly are not good for man. Whenever they try to do so, they only parade the weakness of their faith in the Lord’s words, which were given as admonition and “wisdom,” and obedience to which will bring blessing as certain and sure as if he had said, “Thou shalt not.”5 from Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay, (2011), 102–11 Quote “Hot drinks [defined as tea and coffee] are not for the body.” (D&C 89:9.) from A Principle with a Promise: Ezra Taft Benson Link to comment
Jeanne Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Huh...all I know is that as a teen, I hid my cherry coke underneath the mattress... That being said, my Dad beat the crap out of my mom for just having a coffee pot..so ..who knows??? Times...they are a'changin' Link to comment
Okrahomer Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 4 hours ago, Jeanne said: That being said, my Dad beat the crap out of my mom for just having a coffee pot..so ..who knows??? This is very sad. 2 Link to comment
Guest Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 On an anti-Mormon site, I let slip that I have diabities. I was told studies revealed that coffee helped with diabetes. I was actually told by a poster that having diabetes was Joseph Smith's fault and since we believe he is God, I should pray to him and thank him for my health problems. True Story Link to comment
UtahTexan Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 7 hours ago, Jeanne said: Huh...all I know is that as a teen, I hid my cherry coke underneath the mattress... That being said, my Dad beat the crap out of my mom for just having a coffee pot..so ..who knows??? Times...they are a'changin' That was not due to LDS stuff...that was because he was a jerk for hitting a woman. My dad beat my mom and me for 5 years before he disappeared....he was a jerk, too Link to comment
Jeanne Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 39 minutes ago, Pa Pa said: On an anti-Mormon site, I let slip that I have diabities. I was told studies revealed that coffee helped with diabetes. I was actually told by a poster that having diabetes was Joseph Smith's fault and since we believe he is God, I should pray to him and thank him for my health problems. True Story Really?? That is so way out there! Link to comment
Jeanne Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 6 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: That was not due to LDS stuff...that was because he was a jerk for hitting a woman. My dad beat my mom and me for 5 years before he disappeared....he was a jerk, too Well..that too. My Dad was never active and then when Mom got pregnant with me..he did a 180 and it was church right down to the letter. It was rough. When he did this to Mom, I was only 4 or 5..the darn coffee pot was actually for my grandma...oh well..we have been trying to mend fences ever since. Link to comment
VideoGameJunkie Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 I know people who have confessed to their Bishops about marijuana consumption once and kept their recommend. Also law of chastity fornication confessions and kept their recommend so it seems odd to prevent a recommend for coffee. Link to comment
Guest Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 30 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Really?? That is so way out there! Yes, in fact one of the posters who said it is quoted in one of my signature line below in purple...and he was not the only one. Link to comment
cinepro Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 21 hours ago, Rain said: from Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay, (2011), 102–11 I wonder why they didn't use this story in the David O. McKay manual...? During intermission at a theatrical presentation, his host offered to get refreshments: “His hearing wasn’t very good, and I got right down in front of him and I said, ‘President McKay, what would you like to drink? All of our cups say Coca Cola on them because of our arrangement with Coca Cola Bottling, but we have root beer and we have orange and we have Seven-Up. What would you like to drink?’ And he said, ‘I don’t care what it says on the cup, as long as there is a Coke in the cup.'” “David O McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism” (Pg. 23) 1 Link to comment
Guest Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 8 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I know people who have confessed to their Bishops about marijuana consumption once and kept their recommend. Also law of chastity fornication confessions and kept their recommend so it seems odd to prevent a recommend for coffee. Having served in a Bishopric for a number of years...WoW, issues maybe, but adultery or fortifications; not a chance, unless confessing something long ago that has been repented of, or while a teenager. I cannot see any Bishop worth his salt letting that go. Link to comment
VideoGameJunkie Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 On 7/30/2016 at 5:43 PM, Pa Pa said: Having served in a Bishopric for a number of years...WoW, issues maybe, but adultery or fortifications; not a chance, unless confessing something long ago that has been repented of, or while a teenager. I cannot see any Bishop worth his salt letting that go. TMI Post removed Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 On 7/29/2016 at 8:30 PM, Gray said: I recently tried to find something saying that herbal tea is allowed and came up with nothing. The WOW is a bit of a mess. Herbal tea is not tea. That is a misnomer. Understanding that should simplify the matter. 1 Link to comment
Rain Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 (edited) On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Gray said: I recently tried to find something saying that herbal tea is allowed and came up with nothing. The WOW is a bit of a mess. I've also searched a number of times and found the same thing. I have not found that it is not allowed either. I have found a lot of things, not lds related, that can be used in argument both that it is tea and that it is not. So at this point I just don't teach whether it is WOW ok or not. I figure individuals can just take it to the Lord. Edited July 31, 2016 by Rain Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rain said: I've also searched a number of times and found the same thing. I have not found that it is not allowed either. I have found a lot of things, not lds related, that can be used in argument both that it is tea and that it is not. So at this point I just don't teach whether it is WOW ok or not. I figure individuals can just take it to the Lord. It's not against the Word of Wisdom to consume most common forms of herbal "tea." When I was on my mission in Sweden in the mid-'70s we drank it a lot: rose hip tea, peppermint tea, etc. So did the local indigenous Latter-day Saints. Edited July 31, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 1 Link to comment
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