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Are the visiting teaching messages written by men with no input by women?


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To be honest, I have not enjoyed this years Visiting Teaching messages.  I preferred 2015 messages about the Savior much more and I had more robust lessons and discussions about the topics last year.   I really had not analyzed why this could be. I read this article;  http://www.wheatandtares.org/21707/what-happens-without-a-loyal-opposition/ and totally agree with the premise.  Here is the lesson from the Ensign.  https://www.lds.org/liahona/2016/08/nurturing-families-together?lang=eng   As I teach Relief Society from the President's of the church manual, I often wish there were more quotes and stories from a women's perspective.  I leave out stories based on the fact they have no bearing on women in the church.  There are some situations, because of gender, we will never be in.  I don't need the Priesthood, but I do feel women's voices need to be heard and listened to and the subtle sexism must end.  My husband was surprised to learn this week that girls camp is only Wednesday through Saturday when the boys always get to go a whole week.  I already discussed Activity Days on different threads but the disparity between activity days and cubs can not be remedied without intervention from Salt Lake.  My husband and I both get annoyed with the premise of the Fathers and Sons campout too.  Can women not commemorate the Priesthood? Do the daughters not deserve to camp out with their dad too?  (It's not like the boys don't get many other camp out opportunities with their dads in scouting.) On another thread I asked why don't the Come Follow Me lessons for the Young Women contain the "Let the Young Men lead" section the Young Men get?  Does anybody know if it is true that the Relief Society messages are all written by men with no input from women?  Are there any women on the curriculum committee?

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I liked last year's better too, and haven't paid much attention to this year's.  However, my VT partner and i had probably the most spiritual visit we've ever had with one of our sisters (who is active and married to a non-member with three little kids) because of our discussion based on July's VT message.

It was a good reminder to me that not every lesson or message has to appeal to me, and that's o.k.  I really do forget that sometimes though it seems like it should be a given.  

And i thought that i had heard that there were women on the correlation committee but i can't remember where i heard that from.

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20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I liked last year's better too, and haven't paid much attention to this year's.  However, my VT partner and i had probably the most spiritual visit we've ever had with one of our sisters (who is active and married to a non-member with three little kids) because of our discussion based on July's VT message.

It was a good reminder to me that not every lesson or message has to appeal to me, and that's o.k.  I really do forget that sometimes though it seems like it should be a given.  

And i thought that i had heard that there were women on the correlation committee but i can't remember where i heard that from.

Not according to Peggy Fletcher Stack of the Salt Lake Tribune.

Incidentally, her article documents what I have long understood to be the case:

Quote

The Correlation Executive Committee is among many in the third tier of committees and includes two Mormon apostles, other LDS general authorities (males) and some male staffers.

 

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1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

As I teach Relief Society from the President's of the church manual, I often wish there were more quotes and stories from a women's perspective.  I leave out stories based on the fact they have no bearing on women in the church.  There are some situations, because of gender, we will never be in.  I don't need the Priesthood, but I do feel women's voices need to be heard and listened to and the subtle sexism must end. 

You really don't see the irony in this statement do you?
Tell me, what would the response be if there was one manual for the men that included lessons on priesthood etc and on lesson for the RS that featured lessons on motherhood etc?

The same response we hear now whenever priesthood is equated to motherhood.  By separating or differentiating between the sexes the claim would be sexism.  Yet combining the manual to include both sexes leaves someone feeling there an imbalance and therefore the claim would be sexism.
You say " I leave out stories based on the fact they have no bearing on women in the church.  There are some situations, because of gender, we will never be in."
The same would apply if the men were taught lessons that have no bearing on men in the Church.

So do we separate manuals leading to calls of sexism, or combine manuals with things that have no bearing to the classes being taught to either gender, or keep combined manuals that aren't balanced leading to calls of sexism.
3 problematic options.

To be fair I actually agree with you.  I think separate manuals would be fine.  But the curriculum committee is in a solid lose/lose situation here.

 

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2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You really don't see the irony in this statement do you?
Tell me, what would the response be if there was one manual for the men that included lessons on priesthood etc and on lesson for the RS that featured lessons on motherhood etc?

The same response we hear now whenever priesthood is equated to motherhood.  By separating or differentiating between the sexes the claim would be sexism.  Yet combining the manual to include both sexes leaves someone feeling there an imbalance and therefore the claim would be sexism.
You say " I leave out stories based on the fact they have no bearing on women in the church.  There are some situations, because of gender, we will never be in."
The same would apply if the men were taught lessons that have no bearing on men in the Church.

So do we separate manuals leading to calls of sexism, or combine manuals with things that have no bearing to the classes being taught to either gender, or keep combined manuals that aren't balanced leading to calls of sexism.
3 problematic options.

To be fair I actually agree with you.  I think separate manuals would be fine.  But the curriculum committee is in a solid lose/lose situation here.

 

I actually agree with you too.  Separate manuals would be fine but their content could end up causing way more problems if their lessons were all on motherhood.  There really is more to being a mormon woman than being a mother.  The Priesthood should not be equated to motherhood.  Motherhood should be equated to fatherhood.  I think the men would get tired of father centric lessons week after week.  I actually think the young men should have a whole month of lessons on how to support and sustain the women in their life just like the girls have a month of priesthood lessons (a month of priesthood lessons for the young women, trust me, gets very repetitive and boring.)  Young men need to be taught to respect and treat women as equal partners in the Gospel.  Don't you think this could benefit the young men in our church?  Your comment, while I see it is well-meaning, is actually incredibly sexist.

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Subtle sexism - oh, you must mean the ad nauseum instruction to every male in the Church of Jesus Christ that women are so vastly, spiritually superior to men or was it the almost total avoidance of celebrating Father's Day.  

When we actually stop, look at ourselves in the mirror and listen to the our own words we then actually understand the condition of our own heart.  I don't know of a human that is alive that cannot complain about something or even a great many things.  What is important is to recognize that anyone can whine, complain, and bemoan our own trials, challenges, and daily annoyances, but it takes a true disciple of Jesus Christ to humbly kneel before God and feel true gratitude for the overwhelming kindness and blessings we receive.  Oh sublime the grateful heart that when the Savior calls he finds us already prepared to rejoice in all that he may ask of us.

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8 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Subtle sexism - oh, you must mean the ad nauseum instruction to every male in the Church of Jesus Christ that women are so vastly, spiritually superior to men or was it the almost total avoidance of celebrating Father's Day.  

One of my greatest pet peeves in Relief Society during Priesthood discussions is the inevitable comment that as women we don't need the Priesthood because the men need it in order to be decent, God fearing men.  I actually give the men in my life far more credit than that. I'm sorry you view my perspective as whining, and complaining and bemoaning trials, challenges and annoyances.  Do you feel I was saying being a woman is trial, challenge or annoyance?   I do want my daughters to love God and be a disciple of Christ and not be frustrated by their treatment at church.  I have four daughters--it's happened.

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49 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You really don't see the irony in this statement do you?
Tell me, what would the response be if there was one manual for the men that included lessons on priesthood etc and on lesson for the RS that featured lessons on motherhood etc?

The same response we hear now whenever priesthood is equated to motherhood.  By separating or differentiating between the sexes the claim would be sexism.  Yet combining the manual to include both sexes leaves someone feeling there an imbalance and therefore the claim would be sexism.
You say " I leave out stories based on the fact they have no bearing on women in the church.  There are some situations, because of gender, we will never be in."
The same would apply if the men were taught lessons that have no bearing on men in the Church.

So do we separate manuals leading to calls of sexism, or combine manuals with things that have no bearing to the classes being taught to either gender, or keep combined manuals that aren't balanced leading to calls of sexism.
3 problematic options.

To be fair I actually agree with you.  I think separate manuals would be fine.  But the curriculum committee is in a solid lose/lose situation here.

 

If they include more stories about women, had more women giving input into the lesson framework and perhaps had a wide ramge of ages contributing (include seniors who are empty nesters as well as college age) as well as more nationalities, then they could have enough material in a lesson so that each class could find enough useful material whatever their particular mix was.

Or they could have a very basic lesson but include a wide range of story and other resources to flesh it out that reflect cultural, age, gender and any other issues that come up.  Given the use of the same lesson plans very year in SS, they could have time to build up quite a resource (as they are already doing with media) library that could be adapted to PH and RS easily.

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29 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Subtle sexism - oh, you must mean the ad nauseum instruction to every male in the Church of Jesus Christ that women are so vastly, spiritually superior to men or was it the almost total avoidance of celebrating Father's Day.  

Most definitely part of it.  We need to be better at teaching how to value all roles and characteristics of both of the genders rather than just fixating on a few aspects of either and pedestaling them while ignoring or even degrading other aspects.

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39 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

 Young men need to be taught to respect and treat women as equal partners in the Gospel.  

I think in many ways men see women as equal partners but because so much of the roles are in isolation of each other, it can be hard to be realistic judges of what is really going on.  And respect can only really be earned through interaction.  Idolization is what occurs if there isn't enough interaction.  And that can interfere with effective interaction when an opportunity to share arises. 

And the reality is that separate but equal doesn't work even though some separation is helpful because there are unique growth opportunities that occur within a one gender group that doesn't in mixed genders.  So there needs to be both sufficient and effective mixing and sufficient and effective separation.  

Neither will be achieved unless those involved are listened to in order to find out their needs and desires in both types of settings. Even with God's revelation, practices and teachings need to be 'translated' (I am talking about ensuring the proper nuances, relevance, etc. so that the right message gets taught in the right way instead of being so unintendedly off target the audience ignores it because there is no real connection or worse rebels against it because it errs enough to be damaging) in order to be effectively conveyed and learning to translate between different cultures, whether country, ethnic, generational, or genders need members of those communities involved in creating the language to bridge the communities.

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2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

To be honest, I have not enjoyed this years Visiting Teaching messages.  I preferred 2015 messages about the Savior much more and I had more robust lessons and discussions about the topics last year.   I really had not analyzed why this could be. I read this article;  http://www.wheatandtares.org/21707/what-happens-without-a-loyal-opposition/ and totally agree with the premise.  Here is the lesson from the Ensign.  https://www.lds.org/liahona/2016/08/nurturing-families-together?lang=eng   As I teach Relief Society from the President's of the church manual, I often wish there were more quotes and stories from a women's perspective.  I leave out stories based on the fact they have no bearing on women in the church.  There are some situations, because of gender, we will never be in.  I don't need the Priesthood, but I do feel women's voices need to be heard and listened to and the subtle sexism must end.  My husband was surprised to learn this week that girls camp is only Wednesday through Saturday when the boys always get to go a whole week.  I already discussed Activity Days on different threads but the disparity between activity days and cubs can not be remedied without intervention from Salt Lake.  My husband and I both get annoyed with the premise of the Fathers and Sons campout too.  Can women not commemorate the Priesthood? Do the daughters not deserve to camp out with their dad too?  (It's not like the boys don't get many other camp out opportunities with their dads in scouting.) On another thread I asked why don't the Come Follow Me lessons for the Young Women contain the "Let the Young Men lead" section the Young Men get?  Does anybody know if it is true that the Relief Society messages are all written by men with no input from women?  Are there any women on the curriculum committee?

Written via the web input of Apostles, Prophets and scriptures, and yes from women. 

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1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Your comment, while I see it is well-meaning, is actually incredibly sexist.

Everything is sexist (or at least can be taken that way).
Should tell us something about the nature of existence.

Edited by JLHPROF
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49 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

 the inevitable comment that as women we don't need the Priesthood because the men need it in order to be decent, God fearing men. 

Pure sexism.

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1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

One of my greatest pet peeves in Relief Society during Priesthood discussions is the inevitable comment that as women we don't need the Priesthood because the men need it in order to be decent, God fearing men.  I actually give the men in my life far more credit than that. I'm sorry you view my perspective as whining, and complaining and bemoaning trials, challenges and annoyances.  Do you feel I was saying being a woman is trial, challenge or annoyance?   I do want my daughters to love God and be a disciple of Christ and not be frustrated by their treatment at church.  I have four daughters--it's happened.

No, I think you missed my point.  I do believe there is a proper time and a proper place to share concerns and discuss feelings....just as there are times when the impact of sharing our feelings and concerns may not achieve the objective, which is to improve the process.  We humans have an acutely developed sense or ability to find the negative in all things.  Each of us can get on a soap box to share our negative feelings, pet peeves, etc. - at the drop of a hat.  

I don't find what you were saying is germane to any gender - it is just being human.  You are no different than me or any other person on this Board or anywhere else.  You made the accusation of subtle sexism and my response demonstrated another type of subtle sexism - the point was that we all can find a "problem" and none of us can share those feelings and gain any benefit to heal those feelings.  None of us has that ability on this Board.  

Bluebell gave an excellent response to your post - she did not particularly enjoy the manual this year either; however, in her visiting teaching message this month she enjoyed a very spiritual experience.  That spiritual experience is open to each of us by using the tools we have been given.

Please understand that I am not saying that all of the tools given us are perfect, excellent, or even good.  I am trying to portray that we can use the tools given us and still plant seeds and harvest abundantly.  

You provided a litany of things you would like to see - some of those things you can influence in your family and your ward.  Some of those things will work and others will not.  Some of the things you will have no ability to influence and none of us will either.  You may want to write a letter to the FP about and share you feelings and then spend time petitioning the Lord that his will be done while you continue to do your best.

In many ways we are responsible for our feelings - not the church, not our neighbor, not our spouse, not our children, and not God.  It is easy for each of us to find fault and to lay blame on other people and other things, but the reality is that we share significantly, if not completely, in our feelings.   

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43 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

 

You provided a litany of things you would like to see - some of those things you can influence in your family and your ward.  Some of those things will work and others will not.  Some of the things you will have no ability to influence and none of us will either.  You may want to write a letter to the FP about and share you feelings and then spend time petitioning the Lord that his will be done while you continue to do your best.

In many ways we are responsible for our feelings - not the church, not our neighbor, not our spouse, not our children, and not God.  It is easy for each of us to find fault and to lay blame on other people and other things, but the reality is that we share significantly, if not completely, in our feelings.   

Writing a letter to the first presidency is against church policy.  When is the proper time and proper place to share concerns and discuss "feelings" about sexist polices and practices?"  My discussion of these topics on this board happens because, as a woman, I will never be in a position to effect change in these practices and policies. If the general Relief Society Board has no input on the Relief Society curriculum or VT messages, I certainly don't have a voice that matters.  

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41 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Writing a letter to the first presidency is against church policy.  When is the proper time and proper place to share concerns and discuss "feelings" about sexist polices and practices?"  My discussion of these topics on this board happens because, as a woman, I will never be in a position to effect change in these practices and policies. If the general Relief Society Board has no input on the Relief Society curriculum or VT messages, I certainly don't have a voice that matters.  

You are human and you see the world as you choose to see the world.  If you choose to see the world wearing sexist lens you will find all the sexist issues you want, an overwhelming supply of issues and points to complain about.  In fact, every human can pick their issue and find an overwhelming supply of issues to complain about.  

My point is that it all has to do with "you", "me" - we find what we want to find; nothing more and nothing less.  

If you are a victim and want to bang that feminist drum the rest of your life you are welcome to it.  Bang on and never stop!  It is your choice.  How does that work for you?  I assume it works about as well as anyone else's pet issue that they want to harp on about - it does nothing except leave us unhappy, frustrated, and angry.  Who did it to us?  Who is the perpetrator of our own unhappiness?  You guessed it - only ourselves and not a single other person.

I have read several of your threads and they all have the same issue at its heart.  Have you made any progress in finding a solution yet?  Are you happier because you have focused on these things?  

Each of us can find an issue or a number of issues that work themselves into our minds, hearts, and souls.  It is similar to a dog that chases after - purposely - and bites a porcupine.  The dog now has as many quills stuck in his mouth, paws, and anything else that the dog chose to attack the beast.  Some dogs will investigate that porcupine and then leave it.  Other dogs will hit with their paw and quickly find a painful quill stuck in their paw.  Still other dogs will bite the porcupine and put both paws on it and become completely full of these excruciatingly painful quills. 

The quills of a porcupine don't just puncture the skin, but they embed in the flesh and work themselves deeper with movement.  They quickly become infected and without treatment can become deadly for many animals that just won't leave the porcupine alone. 

Someone or something needs to pull the quill out before it kills the attacking animal before it becomes deadly.  

For us, for those children of God that recognize they are in a dangerous position.  One that they recognize is a problem that they cannot resolve or find an answer they take that problem to their Father in Heaven and leave it with him.  They allow God to remove the painful quill that has caused us so much distress and frustration and allow him to heal our wounds.  

This world is meant to be a world opposition, challenges, and turmoil.  The only way I know to ensure that we remain faithful is to be humble enough to turn over our problems to God.  Let him know our hearts and minds and then leave the problem with him to work on as he sees fit.  

Of course, the alternative is to think that we know best and feel the need to keep kicking against what offends us.  Make sure those quills of anger get so completely embedded in our hearts while becoming proud enough in ourselves that we will not allow anything to heal us.  We choose every day and we set an example for others.  That example can be either an example of positive living or the opposite.  My dad set a negative example for me and I learned from him how not to do some things.  I don't think he was ever really happy his entire life.  The sad thing is that he chose that way of life....we all do. 

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4 hours ago, Calm said:

I think in many ways men see women as equal partners but because so much of the roles are in isolation of each other, it can be hard to be realistic judges of what is really going on.  And respect can only really be...

 

Learned (not earned) through interaction.

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52 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

You are human and you see the world as you choose to see the world.  If you choose to see the world wearing sexist lens you will find all the sexist issues you want, an overwhelming supply of issues and points to complain about.  In fact, every human can pick their issue and find an overwhelming supply of issues to complain about.  

My point is that it all has to do with "you", "me" - we find what we want to find; nothing more and nothing less.  

If you are a victim and want to bang that feminist drum the rest of your life you are welcome to it.  Bang on and never stop!  It is your choice.  How does that work for you?  I assume it works about as well as anyone else's pet issue that they want to harp on about - it does nothing except leave us unhappy, frustrated, and angry.  Who did it to us?  Who is the perpetrator of our own unhappiness?  You guessed it - only ourselves and not a single other person.

I have read several of your threads and they all have the same issue at its heart.  Have you made any progress in finding a solution yet?  Are you happier because you have focused on these things?  

Each of us can find an issue or a number of issues that work themselves into our minds, hearts, and souls.  It is similar to a dog that chases after - purposely - and bites a porcupine.  The dog now has as many quills stuck in his mouth, paws, and anything else that the dog chose to attack the beast.  Some dogs will investigate that porcupine and then leave it.  Other dogs will hit with their paw and quickly find a painful quill stuck in their paw.  Still other dogs will bite the porcupine and put both paws on it and become completely full of these excruciatingly painful quills. 

The quills of a porcupine don't just puncture the skin, but they embed in the flesh and work themselves deeper with movement.  They quickly become infected and without treatment can become deadly for many animals that just won't leave the porcupine alone. 

Someone or something needs to pull the quill out before it kills the attacking animal before it becomes deadly.  

For us, for those children of God that recognize they are in a dangerous position.  One that they recognize is a problem that they cannot resolve or find an answer they take that problem to their Father in Heaven and leave it with him.  They allow God to remove the painful quill that has caused us so much distress and frustration and allow him to heal our wounds.  

This world is meant to be a world opposition, challenges, and turmoil.  The only way I know to ensure that we remain faithful is to be humble enough to turn over our problems to God.  Let him know our hearts and minds and then leave the problem with him to work on as he sees fit.  

Of course, the alternative is to think that we know best and feel the need to keep kicking against what offends us.  Make sure those quills of anger get so completely embedded in our hearts while becoming proud enough in ourselves that we will not allow anything to heal us.  We choose every day and we set an example for others.  That example can be either an example of positive living or the opposite.  My dad set a negative example for me and I learned from him how not to do some things.  I don't think he was ever really happy his entire life.  The sad thing is that he chose that way of life....we all do. 

You are correct...I do have unresolved issues.  It's kind of like this http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/05/10-things-you-cant-unsee-and-what-that-says-about-your-brain/361335/. As much as I would like to go back in time 5 years and not see all I've seen, I can't.  You should not assume I haven't it tossed it up to God for help nor sought answers from him. He must have wanted me to learn these lessons.

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5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

You are correct...I do have unresolved issues.  It's kind of like this http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/05/10-things-you-cant-unsee-and-what-that-says-about-your-brain/361335/. As much as I would like to go back in time 5 years and not see all I've seen, I can't.  You should not assume I haven't it tossed it up to God for help nor sought answers from him. He must have wanted me to learn these lessons.

BSJ, I don't assume you haven't, but I do assume that each of us is benefited by continued prayer - both prayers of asking/pleading and prayers of listening.  I do not judge you, but I recognize you as human and no different than me or anyone on the board.  We each try - it may look like we are spinning our wheels, making no progress, etc. - to do our best with the tools we have.  

It always surprises me at what is eventually found to be the key that makes it all better.  It just seems that a day arrives and the picture "fits" again and our perspective changes and all is good in the world.  Regardless, I know that we can eventually arrive at that day where the weight is lifted and we realize that we have moved on without rancor to grieve us any longer.  It would be great if it happened sooner every time, but we are just beings that need to learn.

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14 hours ago, bsjkki said:

To be honest, I have not enjoyed this years Visiting Teaching messages.  I preferred 2015 messages about the Savior much more and I had more robust lessons and discussions about the topics last year.

Assuming the membership structure of the Correlation Committee hasn't changed, why would its composition have any thing to do with the change in your experience with the messages, lessons and discussions from the Ensign and the lesson manuals?

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huh..all I know is when my husband died, the bishop and my father-in-law told my son that as a Teacher in the Aaronic Priesthood, he was the head of our family.  That kind of put me in my place.  I told my son, that the burden did not belong to him..but as a family, we were responsible for each other.  I enjoyed the RS most times back i 2006=2007.  That being said, I felt no relation to the history or a place that was relevant in key areas of the ward.  It was like I and women like me were invisible.  Having already raised my family. I felt disjointed.  I did not mind my home teachers..but I found out later that a RS sister felt bad because I did not have the Priesthood in my home.  Hey...I am okay without it.  I pretty much can physically and spiritually take care of myself..and I resented the fact that I would be so needy and yet so strong.  I hope that women in the church today have found a good place for them and the fact that this topic and OP is brought up..is a wonderful thing...now..just LISTEN!  To me, being a man or a woman should have nothing to do with spiritualiity or the priesthood..it is a personal and individual experience and right to have the spirit and grow with it no matter what.  There are differences in the sexes, of course, but shared responsibility can only be a good thing if we all contribute to learning and understanding the gospel as a whole.  This means that we seek value from the past..and talk about them.  We miss so much by not offering the voice of so many pioneer women and their take and truths on their lives.

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