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LDS Church welfare, humanitarian efforts avg $40m/yr

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On 7/13/2016 at 10:05 AM, Gray said:

I'm grateful they've given out that much, but frankly we can do a lot better than this. Many churches do. In fact, many for-profit businesses do. 

You are right! we can do better. Feel free to increase your donations to the church's humanitarian fund.

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16 minutes ago, Danzo said:

You are right! we can do better. Feel free to increase your donations to the church's humanitarian fund.

I used to feel that the church was the best place to send my charitable donations (apart from tithes and FO) but once they altered the tithing slip to state that funds could be used for anything, I decided to donate directly to the charities of my choice so I could choose how they would be used.

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On 7/13/2016 at 11:13 AM, rockpond said:

From yesterday's Deseret News:

If that number is correct and if we assume that the Church's annual income is around $6 billion, than the Church's welfare and humanitarian aid averages about 0.7% of its annual income.  Or, looking at it another way, it is averaging $2.67 per member in welfare and aid efforts.

What are you trying to evaluate or discuss from this data?

It’s probably best to look at it from the per-member average expenditure. Assuming the humanitarian aid comes from member contributions (directly from personal contributions or indirectly through Church-owned enterprises), in some poorer countries $2.67 represents 0.33% of a person’s annual income (e.g. Malawi). In the USA it is about 0.005%. The worldwide average would be 0.015%. So 0.7% of annual income actually seems relatively high.

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20 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I used to feel that the church was the best place to send my charitable donations (apart from tithes and FO) but once they altered the tithing slip to state that funds could be used for anything, I decided to donate directly to the charities of my choice so I could choose how they would be used.

What is your annual income, and what % goes to these non-LDS charitable organizations for the provision of easily-identifiable welfare and humanitarian aid efforts?

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1 hour ago, Danzo said:

You are right! we can do better. Feel free to increase your donations to the church's humanitarian fund.

Frankly I have no way of knowing where that money will go. As far as philanthropy goes, I tend to prefer to give to organizations like the Red Cross or St. Jude's. 

Edited by Gray

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58 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I used to feel that the church was the best place to send my charitable donations (apart from tithes and FO) but once they altered the tithing slip to state that funds could be used for anything, I decided to donate directly to the charities of my choice so I could choose how they would be used.

It may be possible to donate directly and not through tithing.  Would that change your mind?

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22 minutes ago, Calm said:

It may be possible to donate directly and not through tithing.  Would that change your mind?

I appreciate you sending the LDS Philanthropies link, I didn't know that existed.  But, no, it is not likely to change my mind.  Cash is fungible and church leadership has already said that they will use funds wherever they see fit.  So, even though my donation to LDS Philanthropies may be guaranteed a specific use, they could just be transferring someone else's donation to offset mine.

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18 hours ago, rockpond said:

I claim no insider information.  Only the info I've shared here which mostly comes from media interviews with church leaders and FAIR articles.  Wikipedia articles as well. 

From a legal perspective, the church IS its legally registered entities.  I've tried to identify them.  And I've used "own" in the sense of managed/controlled.  Obviously the prophet doesn't own them in the sense the he's gonna pass them down to his heirs when he dies. 

I've made my best attempt at understanding the structure of the church.  If you know something I don't (and for which I'm earnestly seeing to understand) I am curious why you won't just correct me and share the answers.

I'm interested in why you think that testimonies are on the line.  And if they are, why you won't explain what I have wrong. 

Do you work for the church?  Are you under a confidentiality agreement?  LLC's and Corporations are generally a matter of public record so it seems unlikely that they would be a secret held by church hierarchy. 

I do not work for the Church and I am not under a confidentiality agreement; but when I am told something and asked not to share I will respect that request.

Also, not everything about an LLC and corporation is public record, including who its owners are (which is typically not public unless the corporation is publicly traded).

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14 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I appreciate you sending the LDS Philanthropies link, I didn't know that existed.  But, no, it is not likely to change my mind.  Cash is fungible and church leadership has already said that they will use funds wherever they see fit.  So, even though my donation to LDS Philanthropies may be guaranteed a specific use, they could just be transferring someone else's donation to offset mine.

I hate to break it to you, but your other charities have the same problem.

The money you send them can be used for any purpose,  unless you put a restriction on the money.

Even if you restrict the funds, the money is still fungible and is not required to be deposited in a separate bank account.  It the cash you send could  still be used to fund something you didn't donate for and they would use someone else's cash to cover the restricted funds.

your money donated to red cross might be used for the over 1 billion dollars in salaries that they paid, or for their lobbying expenses. Or for their over 100 million in office expenses.

 

 

Edited by Danzo

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1 hour ago, Gray said:

Frankly I have no way of knowing where that money will go. As far as philanthropy goes, I tend to prefer to give to organizations like the Red Cross or St. Jude's. 

So I guess we have an explanation on why the church doesn't do better.

You would rather help pay red cross's billion dollar salaries (over half of their revenue).

I know you already researched this, so it obviously doesn't bother you.

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19 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I hate to break it to you, but your other charities have the same problem.

The money you send them can be used for any purpose,  unless you put a restriction on the money.

Even if you restrict the funds, the money is still fungible and is not required to be deposited in a separate bank account.  It the cash you send could  still be used to fund something you didn't donate for and they would use someone else's cash to cover the restricted funds.

your money donated to red cross might be used for the over 1 billion dollars in salaries that they paid, or for their lobbying expenses. Or for their over 100 million in office expenses.

 

 

When I choose a specific charity (like my local food bank), I have a better idea where those funds are being used.  And, generally, I only donate to charitable organizations that publish their financial statements.

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21 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

I do not work for the Church and I am not under a confidentiality agreement; but when I am told something and asked not to share I will respect that request.

Also, not everything about an LLC and corporation is public record, including who its owners are (which is typically not public unless the corporation is publicly traded).

If you are under an obligation to not share information, can you at least tell me what I have wrong, rather than just your blanket statements?

Was it just that I used "own" rather than "stakeholders"?

Is the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop *not* the stakeholder and manager of the Reserve entities that handle the Church's real estate ventures?

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On 7/13/2016 at 11:41 AM, bluebell said:

True.

I thought i remember reading somewhere that certain money had to be used a specific way in businesses.  I'm wondering if the corporate part of the church (for lack of a better term) is even able to mix with the religious side, financially speaking?  I know that most businesses have to give a certain percentage of their income to charity in order to get the tax breaks that they need but there are some big rules about how that money is given and where it comes from. 

I honestly have no idea how that all works and it would be SO interesting to be able to understand it better in regards to the church.

The Internal Revenue Code Restricts Charitable deductions to 10% of profit for a Corporation (regular C Corporations) . Anything more would be taxed

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/170 (IRC 170 (b)(2)(A))

 

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On 7/13/2016 at 0:24 PM, rockpond said:

The Church can, and does, own for-profit ventures.  Those for-profit entities pay taxes.

However the deduction for these for profit entities for charitable activities is limited to 10% of profits.

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32 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I hate to break it to you, but your other charities have the same problem.

The money you send them can be used for any purpose,  unless you put a restriction on the money.

Even if you restrict the funds, the money is still fungible and is not required to be deposited in a separate bank account.  It the cash you send could  still be used to fund something you didn't donate for and they would use someone else's cash to cover the restricted funds.

your money donated to red cross might be used for the over 1 billion dollars in salaries that they paid, or for their lobbying expenses. Or for their over 100 million in office expenses.

IMO..none of these other charities claim their donations as God's money.  I may be wrong here..but don't all contributions/tithes on slips is relatively called the Lord's money?

I am not be snarky here...just pointing out what I think is a difference.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

However the deduction for these for profit entities for charitable activities is limited to 10% of profits.

Well, 10% of their profits would be a tithe, right?

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On 7/13/2016 at 0:33 PM, Mystery Meat said:

Lots of misinformation in this post. A simple check on the state's website shows that Property Reserve and City Creek Reserve are non-profit entities. No person or entity can own a non-profit. So no, the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not own them. Do not believe everything you read online from know nothings.

The do, however file a for 990-T which means that they have unrelated business income (Not illegal, just means the income is taxable, same rules as a C corporation)

The 990-T for City creek can be found http://pdfs.citizenaudit.org/2014_11_T/20-8152281_990T_201312.pdf

It reported a loss of about 28 million in 2013. 

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9 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Well, 10% of their profits would be a tithe, right?

I guess that works out to 10%, but the amount is governed by US tax law, not the church.

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27 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

 

I am not following you what's the difference?

Its ok to have half your charity's revenue used for salaries but but only if it isn't God's money?

Edited by Danzo

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6 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The do, however file a for 990-T which means that they have unrelated business income (Not illegal, just means the income is taxable, same rules as a C corporation)

The 990-T for City creek can be found http://pdfs.citizenaudit.org/2014_11_T/20-8152281_990T_201312.pdf

It reported a loss of about 28 million in 2013. 

Thank you, Danzo.

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23 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

How about this:

Please provide a source for the following:

- That Corporation of the President owns:

  • Suburban Land Reserve
  • Property Reserve
  • City Creek Reserve

Let's start there. Thus far, you have not supported these claims.

Here you go...

The link provided by Danzo of the most recent IRS filing:  http://pdfs.citizenaudit.org/2014_11_T/20-8152281_990T_201312.pdf) shows that those three entities (along with a number of others) are Component Members of the Parent Company:  Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Now I ask you to support your claim that I am wrong.

ETA:  That link did not work for me.  You might have to go to CitizenAudit.org main page and search for City Creek Reserve.  It was very easy to find.

Edited by rockpond

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On 7/13/2016 at 1:15 PM, rockpond said:

Who does?

As for City Creek, the 990 reports that the "Corporation of the president" is the parent organization 

http://pdfs.citizenaudit.org/2014_11_T/20-8152281_990T_201312.pdf (page 8 )

On page 9 it list says it has ownership (it doesn't say the percentage) in the following entities

HTC Communites LLC

Russel Clark Reality 

 

It also controls

Agreserves, Inc

Beneficial Life Insurance Company

Bonneville International

Deseret Book

Deseret Management

Deseret Mutual Benefit

Suburban Land Reserve

 

I might have missed one, so you can read the document yourself if you are curious.

 

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12 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Thank you, Danzo.

your welcome :)

It wouldn't appear that the church is running large profits from their "for profit" entities.

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13 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Here you go...

The link provided by Danzo of the most recent IRS filing:  http://pdfs.citizenaudit.org/2014_11_T/20-8152281_990T_201312.pdf) shows that those three entities (along with a number of others) are Component Members of the Parent Company:  Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Now I ask you to support your claim that I am wrong.

ETA:  That link did not work for me.  You might have to go to CitizenAudit.org main page and search for City Creek Reserve.  It was very easy to find.

I didn't see Property Reserve on the City Creek 990T (Doesn't mean the church doesn't own it, It could be a subsidiary of another entity)

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