And Now For Some Good News on Marriage Rates

[california boy]

18 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Well, far be it from me to try to convince you to take a step you're not inclined to take, but I don't think the Church minds if you marry your partner.  The only possible fly in the ointment would be if either of you had parental custody of a minor child who wanted to be baptized into the LDS church.  

I am not sure how you are getting that message.  The church has done so much to make sure gays don't marry.  They just have failed at it, but not without trying very hard.  And the latest policy called gays that marry apostates.  How much more clear could the church possibly be??

[california boy]

On June 30, 2016 at 0:18 AM, Danzo said:

It would be nice, I just think its interesting that this data is part of the article that California Boy referenced, but decided to ignore.

I don't think that in any ward I have been in, the average of temple married active members that I know who have experienced a divorce would be 1 in 4.  

1 in 10 would be closer to my experience.

 

I only passed on the data.  I didn't comment on ANY of it.  And I included ALL of the data from the article including the part you noted.  Hardily some kind of coverup on my part.

That said, according to the study,  it still doesn't change the fact that Mormons have about the same divorce rate as anyone else.

Edited July 6, 2016 by california boy

[Stargazer]

On 7/5/2016 at 5:00 PM, california boy said:

I am not sure how you are getting that message.  The church has done so much to make sure gays don't marry.  They just have failed at it, but not without trying very hard.  And the latest policy called gays that marry apostates.  How much more clear could the church possibly be??

Oh, fer goodness sake.  Members who enter polygamous marriages are apostates, and members who live in same-sex sexual relationships (let alone gay marriage) are not?  

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Oh, fer goodness sake.  Members who enter polygamous marriages are apostates, and members who live in same-sex sexual relationships (let alone gay marriage) are not?  

Tell that one to Brigham Young. He may have a few words to say about that as well. 

 

Show own me One statement by a church leader where they han]ve labeled straight couples living together as apostates.  

[Stargazer]

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

Tell that one to Brigham Young. He may have a few words to say about that as well. 

Appeal to Presentism.  

Show own me One statement by a church leader where they han]ve labeled straight couples living together as apostates.  

I'm not a Church leader, but I do believe that straight LDS couples living together without benefit of marriage are in apostasy.  Maybe I'm too harsh.  But anyway, apostasy can be repented of.

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I'm not a Church leader, but I do believe that straight LDS couples living together without benefit of marriage are in apostasy.  Maybe I'm too harsh.  But anyway, apostasy can be repented of.

yet the church leaders remain silent on calling others living in sin apostates.  And that is pretty much the point.

[BlueDreams]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

yet the church leaders remain silent on calling others living in sin apostates.  And that is pretty much the point.

I don't want to really get in the middle of this. But personally I wouldn't call most couples (gay or straight) "living in sin" as in apostasy. Just living in sin. Apostasy to me assumes adopting a belief structure antithetical to the church's and you can technically be in a sexual relationship, living win someone, and know that's not right. If a straight couple insisted that their relationship didn't need a paper to make it real or that marriage was just an arbitrary concept and thus sealings are a facade then that would be apostasy. And technically the church isn't silent. About that. There's varying policies to address it and certain privileges within the church they wouldn't be able to participate in. For these forms of apostasy there would also likely not be any official  public acts to indicate private belief. That isn't the same with SSM abd polygamy. 

I don't know the exact right way to handle any of it. But I think there are enough distinctions that it isn't surprising that there are often different policies to differing circumstances that run counter to the church.

 

with luv,

BD

Edited July 7, 2016 by BlueDreams

[BlueDreams]

On June 24, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Buckeye said:

Per Bloomberg, marriage rates are way up for this previously-disenfranchised group. I thought there would be a bump after the Supreme Court decision, but nothing like this. Well done gays. Well done.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-24/gay-marriages-triple-after-four-years-of-victories

 

I'm actually not super surprised by the numbers. It's similar to when the age for women and men in the church changed for going on mission. The immediate flood is likely to see exponential growth that then tapers and settles. Plus the group they polled had some drastic differences in age and sexual orientation (larger number of young and bi people) that could also skew numbers higher than an older cohort or groups that were more "out" just 4 years ago. The changes that have happened in a very short period of time means that the lgbt community will also be in major flux and changes until patterns begin to settle and stabilize. They younger generation will be on the cusp for what that means.

with luv, 

BD

[Guest]

On June 26, 2016 at 2:35 AM, california boy said:

Correct me if I am wrong. But don't church members have about the same divorce rate as the general public?  Kinda hard to be the voice of strong marriage when members themselves  pay no attention to such a voice.   What would make people that are not members listen to what the church teaches?

I don't know CB, is it the same? I used to read independent studies about members "per capita" have lower divorce rates, longer marriages and better health many years ago. Has it changed that much in the last 20-30 years? Do they still have such reports anymore, such as, "Pew reports"? 

[Calm]

Temple marriages are less likely to be civilly divorced, but I think the nontemple marriages run about the same, while mixed faith marriages with one spouse being Mormon have one of the worst rates.  Will try and find something from the last five years.

[Calm]

Added here since can't add above:  Overall, the high divorce rate among mixed faith marriages may balance out the lower rate for temple marriages so that we overall average out to be about the same.

[Calm]

http://blog.fairmormon.org/2008/09/12/temple-mariage-and-civil-divorce/

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

http://blog.fairmormon.org/2008/09/12/temple-mariage-and-civil-divorce/

I read all this and found it very interesting.  I think I took more from the comments in understanding the record keeping...the Bishop's advice for civil divorces and waiting for Temple divorces..and had to smile at Anne's ward seemingly to have more single marriages than not.

[Gray]

3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I read all this and found it very interesting.  I think I took more from the comments in understanding the record keeping...the Bishop's advice for civil divorces and waiting for Temple divorces..and had to smile at Anne's ward seemingly to have more single marriages than not.

If temple divorces are defined as cancellation of a sealing, then it would make sense for them to be very rare. They're hard to get, requiring FP approval, as I understand it. 

[Jeanne]

41 minutes ago, Gray said:

If temple divorces are defined as cancellation of a sealing, then it would make sense for them to be very rare. They're hard to get, requiring FP approval, as I understand it. 

Yes..and Bishops ask people to wait until there is a valid reason for Temple divorce..like a new partner in marriage..otherwise it cancels blessings.  I knew a sister in my ward that was devasted..she was divorced but not Temple divorced.  She said the thought of having him in her eternities was a living hell...

[california boy]

On July 22, 2016 at 7:38 PM, Pa Pa said:

I don't know CB, is it the same? I used to read independent studies about members "per capita" have lower divorce rates, longer marriages and better health many years ago. Has it changed that much in the last 20-30 years? Do they still have such reports anymore, such as, "Pew reports"? 

I have no idea.  Someone asked, so I Googled the subject to find the report.  Other than that, I can't really comment except to say that perhaps overall Mormons don't any better than anyone else.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, california boy said:

I have no idea.  Someone asked, so I Googled the subject to find the report.  Other than that, I can't really comment except to say that perhaps overall Mormons don't any better than anyone else.

I hope that it not true, if for no other reason than for the sake of the children. Marriage is hard, it can be a struggle and is not for those who are not truly committed. I was not LDS when my wife and I married, but I came from a broken home early on in my life. My biological father after about six years of marriage started running around on my mother, and then married a woman he got pregnant, making him a bigamist. Thankfully my mother met and married a very good man, who divorced his wife for adultery. He was a Pastor who not only took my mother and three children into his home, but he also adopted us changing my last name to Lee. So when my wife and I married (both at 19) she had a one year old daughter whom I adopted. So, in effect we all grew up together. It was very difficult being so young, but we were both committed to making our lives work together. This past January 30th marked 40 years of marriage. We have four children and eight grandchildren, my wife, my children and my grandchildren are the very purpose of my life. Not a single friend I had growing up, is still married to their first wives, so I know just from experience that my LDS friends have a better marriage track recond than this...so I am hoping that the Church as a whole have a better track recond than most. At least I hope I am not wrong. 

But even bad examples can work for good, when we trust is God. My bio-father's bad example caused my brother, sister and myself to work hard at marriage. We have all been married to the same person our entire lives. 

Edited July 24, 2016 by Pa Pa

[thesometimesaint]

On 7/22/2016 at 2:52 PM, Jeanne said:

Yes..and Bishops ask people to wait until there is a valid reason for Temple divorce..like a new partner in marriage..otherwise it cancels blessings.  I knew a sister in my ward that was devasted..she was divorced but not Temple divorced.  She said the thought of having him in her eternities was a living hell...

No one will be Sealed to anyone they don't want to be Sealed to.

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, Pa Pa said:

I hope that it not true, if for no other reason than for the sake of the children. Marriage is hard, it can be a struggle and is not for those who are not truly committed. I was not LDS when my wife and I married, but I came from a broken home early on in my life. My biological father after about six years of marriage started running around on my mother, and then married a woman he got pregnant, making him a bigamist. Thankfully my mother met and married a very good man, who divorced his wife for adultery. He was a Pastor who not only took my mother and three children into his home, but he also adopted us changing my last name to Lee. So when my wife and I married (both at 19) she had a one year old daughter whom I adopted. So, in effect we all grew up together. It was very difficult being so young, but we were both committed to making our lives work together. This past January 30th marked 40 years of marriage. We have four children and eight grandchildren, my wife, my children and my grandchildren are the very purpose of my life. Not a single friend I had growing up, is still married to their first wives, so I know just from experience that my LDS friends have a better marriage track recond than this...so I am hoping that the Church as a whole have a better track recond than most. At least I hope I am not wrong. 

But even bad examples can work for good, when we trust is God. My bio-father's bad example caused my brother, sister and myself to work hard at marriage. We have all been married to the same person our entire lives. 

My wife was 19, and I was 20 when we got married 45 years ago.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

No one will be Sealed to anyone they don't want to be Sealed to.

Well...for some...this is real good news!

[Danzo]

7 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Well...for some...this is real good news!

For the rest of us, it's old news.

[Stargazer]

On 7/22/2016 at 2:08 PM, Gray said:

If temple divorces are defined as cancellation of a sealing, then it would make sense for them to be very rare. They're hard to get, requiring FP approval, as I understand it. 

I don't think they're as hard to get as you think.  My late wife had no problem getting one from her excommunicated ex-husband so we could be sealed.  My current wife had a miserable first marriage, and apparently the sealing cancellation for that marriage was granted quite quickly, as soon as she had a reason to apply for one (her now-late second husband).  I've seen a few of these cancellations occur in my own acquaintance circle, and in no case did there seem to be any difficulty in obtaining them.  

[Gray]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't think they're as hard to get as you think.  My late wife had no problem getting one from her excommunicated ex-husband so we could be sealed.  My current wife had a miserable first marriage, and apparently the sealing cancellation for that marriage was granted quite quickly, as soon as she had a reason to apply for one (her now-late second husband).  I've seen a few of these cancellations occur in my own acquaintance circle, and in no case did there seem to be any difficulty in obtaining them.  

I know of people who did have trouble getting one. Maybe it's easier to get one if your spouse is no longer a member, though.

[Tacenda]

Joseph Smith and many early leaders married other women besides their wives and that's okay? Joseph Smith basically got rid of the meaning or significance of a marriage by law. He made his own laws. At least they are marrying by law and not making their own laws and calling it sanctified by God. That's another taking the Lord's name in vain by Joseph Smith. I'm sorry if this derails, I'm commenting because I read a post about if SSM is apostasizing or not. Or unmarried couples living together. I'll delete if this was an inappropriate response.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Tacenda