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Tacenda

Church Donating 3 Million to Help Build New Stadium

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1 minute ago, Gray said:

My criticisms are not directed toward the church, really, but toward the outlandish notion that business investments have anything to do with charity (any definition of that word). 

But sometimes the do.

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9 hours ago, sjdawg said:

If it was dead broke on more than one occasion where did the seed money for all the for-profit entities come from?  Were they originally funded with tithing money?   

A huge amount of capital came in through property acquired when settling land and joint community ventures, iirc.  People also have always been making other types of donations to the Church besides tithing, such as Harris donating money to publish the Book of Mormon and others gave food and other necessities or let church leaders stay with them and now Huntsman loaning his jets when needed.

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1 hour ago, Gray said:

Most of the church's commercial ventures seem aimed at turning a profit. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm not sure there's much "heart" in that. 

As the Church pushes out more and more world, they learned long ago that to continue to build the kingdom of God, and the infrastructure that requires...Chapels, Temples, Bishop Storehouses, etc. the need would arise to increase either tithing and donations or grow money through other means. The means by which the Church can continue with vibrant center was to help with the infrastructure of SLC. The Church has also been building up Jackson County, buying up every genealogy search engine in order to continue the mission of the Church. 10% and a big matters or simple interest bearing accounts will never get us there. By doing both we can and will get there...no we are getting there. This will enable the Church of Jesus Christ to fill the world and fulfill both members and non-members needs as it relates to Charity. Or, we could just help less people so that,it might ease the anger from both members and critics who can't see the forest for the trees. I would rather do more to help more people. Wouldn't you?

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In no way do I equate business investment with charity, but I do think in a limited number of cases they overlap such as what got the microbanks movement going...which was a desire to help the poor move out of poverty:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microfinance

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47 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

But sometimes the do.

I suppose anything can be done "with love" but I think characterizing business decisions that way is misleading unless done with a lot of qualifiers. I don't think it's really anything to do with the topic under discussion, either. 

The basic criticism that goes around has to do with opportunity cost. Instead of spending $3m on feeding hungry children or fighting disease, the church is investing in a stadium. It's not that there's anything wrong with stadiums, but traditionally when churches spend money on non-church related expenses, people tend to expect it to be used for philanthropic purposes. 

IMO, a better defense to that criticism (rather than trying to conflate business with charity) would be to say that the church invests money in both business and philanthropy, but that the purpose of the business investments is to ensure that the church remains financially solvent far into the future. So ultimately the business dealings are a kind of insurance policy for the church against hard times. 

Edited by Gray

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24 minutes ago, Calm said:

A huge amount of capital came in through property acquired when settling land and joint community ventures, iirc.  People also have always been making other types of donations to the Church besides tithing, such as Harris donating money to publish the Book of Mormon and others gave food and other necessities or let church leaders stay with them and now Huntsman loaning his jets when needed.

Having jets is a definite must.

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13 hours ago, sjdawg said:

If it was dead broke on more than one occasion where did the seed money for all the for-profit entities come from?  Were they originally funded with tithing money?   

Mostly not. Most of the industry money came from selling land in Utah. Some of it was probably paid in reverse by tithing as the Church was broke and many of the businesses were vital to the survival of the Saints and were created on borrowed money.

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3 hours ago, Gray said:

I suppose anything can be done "with love" but I think characterizing business decisions that way is misleading unless done with a lot of qualifiers. I don't think it's really anything to do with the topic under discussion, either. 

The basic criticism that goes around has to do with opportunity cost. Instead of spending $3m on feeding hungry children or fighting disease, the church is investing in a stadium. It's not that there's anything wrong with stadiums, but traditionally when churches spend money on non-church related expenses, people tend to expect it to be used for philanthropic purposes. 

IMO, a better defense to that criticism (rather than trying to conflate business with charity) would be to say that the church invests money in both business and philanthropy, but that the purpose of the business investments is to ensure that the church remains financially solvent far into the future. So ultimately the business dealings are a kind of insurance policy for the church against hard times. 

I agree, but a rodeo stadium?  When one day, rodeo's might have a stigma?  I use to love rodeos, the zoo, Sea World etc., but think that some of these have developed controversy over the treatment of animals.  

As my dad would say often, why doesn't the church build places like care centers for the elderly etc. That was when my mom had the late stage of Alzheimer's disease. So I guess it put into my head that the church needs to do things on that level.  

But hey, the church has many business ventures and very well may be what holds the country together one day. Especially because the church helps many, just as welfare does, and if that runs out, it may be that the church will indeed be what helps the poor and needy in the end.

Also, much of what is donated to third world countries comes from the members of the church, at least that's what the church usually says.  They definitely don't say that with the business ventures.  

And now the print on the tithing receipt says this.... "Though reasonable efforts will be made globally to use donations as designated, all donations become the Church's property and will be used at the Church's sole discretion to further the Church's overall mission."  

So we're not really sure where the donations go.

 

   

Edited by Tacenda

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5 hours ago, Gray said:

Most of the church's commercial ventures seem aimed at turning a profit. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm not sure there's much "heart" in that. 

Some are now. The history of LDS Church business shows it mostly started because the Church was the only entity big enough in Utah and Nauvoo to keep some vital services flowing. Later the Church backed off on that. Later business creations were mostly practical for the Church to own. Owning a communications company makes it easier to distribute Conference for instance. Then ideally these businesses also make money on the side so that they are not a loss only doing Church-related activities that probably do not generate profit.

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6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Gray I agree, but a rodeo stadium?  When one day, rodeo's might have a stigma?  I use to love rodeos, the zoo, Sea World etc., but think that some of these have developed controversy over the treatment of the animals.  

Not necessarily to Gray...

As my dad would say often, why doesn't the church build places like care centers for the elderly etc. Of course that was when my mom had the late stages of Alzheimer's disease. So I guess it put into my head that the church needs to do things on that level.  But hey, it's got many business ventures and very well may be what holds the country together one day. Especially because the church helps many, just as welfare does, and if that runs out, it may be that the church will indeed help the poor and needy in the end.

Oh, and another thing, much of what is donated to third world countries comes from the members of the church, at least that's what the church usually says.  They definitely don't say that with the business ventures.  

And now the print on the tithing receipt says this.... "Though reasonable efforts will be made globally to use donations as designated, all donations become the Church's property and will be used at the Church's sole discretion to further the Church's overall mission."  

So we're not really sure where the donations go.

 

   

I don't know much about rodeos, so I can't make much of an informed comment there. I know that I personally would spend a lot more on philanthropy if I were making those decisions. But I'm not. 

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2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Some are now. The history of LDS Church business shows it mostly started because the Church was the only entity big enough in Utah and Nauvoo to keep some vital services flowing. Later the Church backed off on that. Later business creations were mostly practical for the Church to own. Owning a communications company makes it easier to distribute Conference for instance. Then ideally these businesses also make money on the side so that they are not a loss only doing Church-related activities that probably do not generate profit.

That makes sense, thanks

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3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Having jets is a definite must.

If someone offered to loan jets for those who needed them on occasion instead of having them just sit on the tarmac and thus helped church leaders meet all their obligations without overtaxing them without costing the Church a dime, I don't see it as a bad thing.  

Looking at charter plane costs, it might even save money if they had several passengers rather than have them fly first class (and at that age for many of them, I wouldn't ask them or anyone else to fly coach and expect them to be functional without a few days recuperation for any flight longer than two hours from the time they board to disembarking).

Edited by Calm

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5 minutes ago, Calm said:

If someone offered to loan jets for those who needed them on occasion instead of having them just sit on the tarmac and thus helped church leaders meet all their obligations without overtaxing them without costing the Church a dime, I don't see it as a bad thing.  

It is not a bad thing..but it is not necessary. 

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So bug Huntsman about it, not the Church.  It saves the Church money and time to make use of the offer.

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1 minute ago, Calm said:

So bug Huntsman about it, not the Church.  It saves the Church money and time to make use of the offer.

I like the Huntsmans.What they offer is a good thing..yes, it is charity and I don't blame the church for taking advantage of it.  But the Huntsman's also give away to so many other charities and donates to cancer big time.  This is something the church could do because now they don't have the expense of travel and time.

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14 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

No. If I could make one criticism about the Church on this front it is that more people don't know about the financial history of Deseret Trust Company. No tithing money, ever.

Is the history available to read somewhere?

 

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12 hours ago, Calm said:

A huge amount of capital came in through property acquired when settling land and joint community ventures, iirc.  People also have always been making other types of donations to the Church besides tithing, such as Harris donating money to publish the Book of Mormon and others gave food and other necessities or let church leaders stay with them and now Huntsman loaning his jets when needed.

I do understand that a lot of Fortune 500 companies have initially been funded through free food and accommodations.

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2 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

I do understand that a lot of Fortune 500 companies have initially been funded through free food and accommodations.

I was just saying that providing physical resources to the Church is a wide spectrum of behaviours overtime from small to huge, many having nothing to do with tithing while still contributing to the overall wealth as every contribution of this type means funding can be devoted to other costs.

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I understand this is probably a business investment, but the idea of a church financially supporting an industry that relies on the tormenting of animals for entertainment is a little odd to me.  Fortunately for the industry and their backers, rodeo animals are specifically exempted in Utah's animal cruelty laws.

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7 hours ago, sjdawg said:

Is the history available to read somewhere?

 

Not that I am aware of.

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On 6/20/2016 at 11:45 AM, Gray said:

What charity is NOT is investing in businesses and building stadiums. That's business. Let's not try to say they're the same thing in a misguided attempt to defend this decision (whether or not it needs defending)

I never said they were the same thing. The means and goals are different. But they can work together in certain limited situations.

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