Church Donating 3 Million to Help Build New Stadium

[Gray]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

Donate to whom ever you want.

Who talked about noble?  The stadium is a business adventure. Which may or may not produce a profit. Also I donate to many worthy causes. The fact is that I also expect a return on investment from things I invest my money in.

I've seen a couple of statements in this thread saying that the best approach to charity is to invest in businesses. That's what I'm reacting to. As a defense it falls flat on its face. 

[Jeanne]

9 minutes ago, Gray said:

I've seen a couple of statements in this thread saying that the best approach to charity is to invest in businesses. That's what I'm reacting to. As a defense it falls flat on its face. 

I agree..and that is what I mentioned in my own post.  This just doesn't connect with the true meaning of charity.. 

[thesometimesaint]

3 minutes ago, Gray said:

I've seen a couple of statements in this thread saying that the best approach to charity is to invest in businesses. That's what I'm reacting to. As a defense it falls flat on its face. 

I don't know as there is a "best" approach to charity. I think one of the better ways is to provide more ways for the person to help them help themselves. It is hard for a person to accept the gospel on an empty stomach.

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, Gray said:

I've seen a couple of statements in this thread saying that the best approach to charity is to invest in businesses. That's what I'm reacting to. As a defense it falls flat on its face. 

It is also a stupid idea. Have you seen bank account interest rates? The idea that the key to job creation is more investment money is absurd. We have tons more investment money then we can use.

[Gray]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

I don't know as there is a "best" approach to charity. I think one of the better ways is to provide more ways for the person to help them help themselves. It is hard for a person to accept the gospel on an empty stomach.

What charity is NOT is investing in businesses and building stadiums. That's business. Let's not try to say they're the same thing in a misguided attempt to defend this decision (whether or not it needs defending)

[Mystery Meat]

I think the anger we see over these types of investments will pale in comparison to the anger we will see when the Church starts to reap the benefits of sound fiscal investments over the past one hundred years. When the world tries to destroy the Church  (whether that's due to SSM or something else) and its members by economically isolating them, the Church and its members will be in a good position to thrive and prosper thanks to its investments. The Church's critics in government and society will be furious that they cannot try and manipulate the Church and its people into conformity. Meanwhile, the Church's membership will look back at this period of relative peace and be grateful that the Lord inspired His prophets to grow the Church's resources and will have a sure testimony of their divine calling.

You can take that to the bank (no pun intended).

[TheSkepticChristian]

3 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

I can afford to shop pretty much where I want

Good for you! 

[Jeanne]

3 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

I can afford to shop pretty much where I want, but live too far away from Salt Lake City, about 1000 miles.

Lucky you.

[Jeanne]

Couldn't resist this quote  I ran into today..

"Businesses may come and go but religion will last forever for no other endeavor does the consumer blame himself for product failure."

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

Should I be directing my charitable donations to one of the Fortune 500 rather than the Red Cross or St. Jude Children's Research Hospital, then? Are you saying more people are helped if I donate my money to General Motors, for instance?

I don't know, are you helping others to find self respect through employment? Such monies do not come from tithing anyway, and everyone has the right to do with their money that they wish. The Church has many commercial ventures that employ 10,000's of people and charitable ones that both employ and care for the poor and the needy. We can do both, we do both, and we do both very well. What is the conflict? My money goes to welfare programs that have little output, while at the same time destroying self respect and self reliance. I am glad that I can give to an orginazation that does so my helping and lifting all at the same time. We as a people can do both, well as well. 

[Gray]

23 minutes ago, Pa Pa said:

I don't know, are you helping others to find self respect through employment? Such monies do not come from tithing anyway, and everyone has the right to do with their money that they wish. The Church has many commercial ventures that employ 10,000's of people and charitable ones that both employ and care for the poor and the needy. We can do both, we do both, and we do both very well. What is the conflict? My money goes to welfare programs that have little output, while at the same time destroying self respect and self reliance. I am glad that I can give to an orginazation that does so my helping and lifting all at the same time. We as a people can do both, well as well. 

There is no doubt that employment is important. But commercial investments are not a form of charity. Can we at least agree on that? 

If not, perhaps Jesus should have whipped alms givers and said, "blessed are the money changers". 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Gray said:

There is no doubt that employment is important. But commercial investments are not a form of charity. Can we at least agree on that? 

If not, perhaps Jesus should have whipped alms givers and said, "blessed are the money changers". 

The money changers were in Temple grounds seeking to profit of the salvation of others. Every Church building is a commercial effort. Those including Church charities are providing jobs and charity, they are inseparable. You don't have to agree with "me" for telling the truth. It would seem that you just don't like I definition...so come up with your own. I cannot say what you would prefer I say. 

[Jeanne]

The MALL is on church property...yes, they provide jobs...but that just makes them moneychangers..Somehow I get the feeling that those who work at the elite places in the mall..already had those jobs.  If the church wants to invest, invest in the people standing in lines at the shelter and put a million bucks to training.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Jeanne

[Gray]

24 minutes ago, Pa Pa said:

The money changers were in Temple grounds seeking to profit of the salvation of others. Every Church building is a commercial effort. Those including Church charities are providing jobs and charity, they are inseparable. You don't have to agree with "me" for telling the truth. It would seem that you just don't like I definition...so come up with your own. I cannot say what you would prefer I say. 

No offense Pa Pa, but your definition makes the word charity become meaningless. If charity is any wealth-creating interaction with market forces, then Wall Street is the biggest charitable outfit out there, and mission driven not-for-profit organizations that try to fight disease or feed hungry children should just hang it up right now and start investing in strip malls and oil drilling companies. 

Perish the thought. This defense of the church is far more offensive than the idea of a church being involved in commercial ventures. Just think about the implications of this line of thought. 

 

Edited June 20, 2016 by Gray

[Mystery Meat]

25 minutes ago, Gray said:

No offense Pa Pa, but your definition makes the word charity become meaningless. If charity is any wealth-creating interaction with market forces, then Wall Street is the biggest charitable outfit out there, and mission driven not-for-profit organizations that try to fight disease or feed hungry children should just hang it up right now and start investing in strip malls and oil drilling companies. 

Perish the thought. This defense of the church is far more offensive than the idea of a church being involved in commercial ventures. Just think about the implications of this line of thought. 

 

There is no doubt that it is a good thing the Church distinguishes between its non-profit arm, and those entities which earn a profit. From purely an economic and societal impact standpoint, I don't think we can say which one has more value. Both do tremendous amounts of good, and not just for people living in Utah. Having said that, I think the world has basically changed the meaning of the word charity as it is used in scripture. Now society wants to make charity all about money (how much you give). While having charity may manifest itself with fiscal generosity, I think charity is more evident in the way we treat others, how we interact with them,  how we judge their actions and the assumptions we make about them. In that light, I think I can easily say that I have seen business owners who have used their for profit enterprises to do things that we just as charitable as a non-profit enterprise. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

No offense Pa Pa, but your definition makes the word charity become meaningless. If charity is any wealth-creating interaction with market forces, then Wall Street is the biggest charitable outfit out there, and mission driven not-for-profit organizations that try to fight disease or feed hungry children should just hang it up right now and start investing in strip malls and oil drilling companies. 

Perish the thought. This defense of the church is far more offensive than the idea of a church being involved in commercial ventures. Just think about the implications of this line of thought. 

 

I am not offended, I have spent more than half my life living or working in the inner city. The first few years of my life in public housing. Never had my own bedroom until I was 12, and only then after leaving the city due to my mother's remarriage to a very good man who adopted myself and my two other siblings. Upon my return from eight years in the Army, and after two years in construction in the same city, I became an police officer and inspector, working in the same neighborhoods I lived in and others. I watched daily as people living on welfare and other charities were robbed of self respect, work ethics and in many cases their lives. So when I speak of these things it is not from so misguided sense of ideal notions of what the word "only means"...ask any who will benefit from this money if they would rather have a "hand out" or a "hand up"? 

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I hope improvements will be made.  I can't afford to go to their mall.

Not even walk through it to enjoy the scenery?  I haven't been there so I don't know if it would be worth it, but up in Calgary during the dead of winter we would hit one of the malls downtown that had some nice parklike areas...and then there was the Galleria in Dallas one too hot summer.  Both places we never bought anything, but it was nice to go for climate control walks.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

What charity is NOT is investing in businesses and building stadiums. That's business. Let's not try to say they're the same thing in a misguided attempt to defend this decision (whether or not it needs defending)

Do you feel comfortable calling it community investment as opposed to charity?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

The MALL is on church property...yes, they provide jobs...but that just makes them moneychangers.

Church property is not equivalent to Temple grounds.  I don't think that works as a valid argument.

I suspect that anyone in those lines at the shelter could go appeal to their bishop or the local transient bishop (I don't know if every church had one bishop assigned as they did up in Canada) for help getting in touch with the local employment training, which is quite extensive down here in Utah Valley if the bulletin announcements I put in are an accurate representation.  Or they could stop by DI and see if they can get training through them.

[Calm]

https://www.deseretindustries.org/?lang=eng

"You help fund job training.

Every time you donate to or shop at DI, you help fund job training. The associates at DI come from a variety of backgrounds and often need help finding steady employment. DI provides on-the-job work training experience. Each of the associates also receives one-on-one job coaching and develops a career plan. DI helps fund further educational or work training opportunities for many associates."

 

[Calm]

https://www.deseretindustries.org/what-we-do?lang=eng

"Training and On-the-Job Experience

Associates gain valuable work experience by working in our facilities and training with local business partners. Individuals can gain retail experience in our stores, trade skills at Deseret Manufacturing, and other work skills while assisting people worldwide at the Latter-day Saint Humanitarian Center.

Career and Technical Education

We partner with community colleges, applied technology centers, and other institutions that offer training courses in accounting, information technology, health care, and other areas.

Business Partnerships

We help you work in your chosen career in an internship-type experience at a business that partners with us. Develop skills and confidence while showing your employer you can do the job.*...

Community Partnerships and Grants

We strive to reach out to local communities by partnering with community agencies to assist those whom they serve and provide service opportunities for groups and individuals."

[Jeanne]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not even walk through it to enjoy the scenery?  I haven't been there so I don't know if it would be worth it, but up in Calgary during the dead of winter we would hit one of the malls downtown that had some nice parklike areas...and then there was the Galleria in Dallas one too hot summer.  Both places we never bought anything, but it was nice to go for climate control walks.

Oh yeah..I have walked through.  The set up, scenery and the whole place is real nice.  It was the one time that I got to pick out a place to eat in the inner city of SLC.  They do ha nice stores..just not my price and style. 

[Calm]

The malls I can afford to prudently shop at cannot afford to have such nice spaces to walk through and play in for fun.  I appreciate the fact that these kinds of malls are open to the general public even if we don't pay a dime for them by shopping there.  Parks and zoos just can't cover the whole year for me if living in places with more extreme temperatures.

[Rain]

23 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Oh yeah..I have walked through.  The set up, scenery and the whole place is real nice.  It was the one time that I got to pick out a place to eat in the inner city of SLC.  They do ha nice stores..just not my price and style. 

If you can afford to shop at other malls you can afford to so at this one.  There may be some stores too pricey, but I have found that to be the case for every mall I have been to except for a very run down mall in Israel. There are a numbers of stores there that are in many other malls: Yankee Candle, Chik-fil-a, Claires, Footlocker, Lenscrafters. All of these are common in malls. I would get if it isn't your price because most malls are too expensive for some,  but really this mall isn't any more high end than most. 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Church property is not equivalent to Temple grounds.  I don't think that works as a valid argument.

I suspect that anyone in those lines at the shelter could go appeal to their bishop or the local transient bishop (I don't know if every church had one bishop assigned as they did up in Canada) for help getting in touch with the local employment training, which is quite extensive down here in Utah Valley if the bulletin announcements I put in are an accurate representation.  Or they could stop by DI and see if they can get training through them.

My dad was one of those on welfare square that helped people find jobs.  He helped people find both short term and long range jobs.  He guided people to where they could find assistance if people needed it.  Or addictive recovery help.

I was at the cannery there once and discovered if people are hungry they can take a short shift and get a meal. 

If you have never been in the sort center I highly recommend a tour of it.  Many of the items come from DIs that can't use the stuff donated.  The items get sent to orher parts of the world.  The people working there have often had a difficult time getting work.  They work for a little and then they take breaks and learn English that will help them get better jobs.  

They have officials from orher countries tour the facilities so they can learn things that will help them in their own countries.